The Hogan/Flair Wrestlemania VIII Problem...

[sungod2020]

So as many of us know, Hulk Hogan was heavily rumored to take on Ric Flair at that years Wrestlemania. In fact, they were already going through the motions of building that match(Flair and Hogan facing off on Superstars at The Funeral Parlor segment, costing him the championship at Survivor Series, etc etc). Yes, we all know that didn't happen(Hogan took on Sid, and Flair took on Savage). 

Lets say regardless of poor house show attendance and lack of in-ring chemistry they've had, how would that match have been booked if the company went ahead with it? Where would happen afterwards?

We all know in this timeline, Hogan took time off after Wrestlemania VIII for various reasons(dwindling popularity, film career etc etc), if he won the match/championship, would he continue to feud with Flair? Who else would be in line? Would he have lost to Flair and take a sabbatical afterwards? I don't think the WWF was ready yet to see a face lose in the main event of Wrestlemania, so I can't say wheather or not that be an option, and a DQ win for Hogan would seem cheap and anti-climatic.

Also, where would that leave Savage if Hogan stayed? Would Bret Hart still be pushed to the WWF championship, or would he have to wait much later than he did?

I'm sure there's more what ifs to come out of this, but I would like to get second and third opinions on how would it go if they decided to pull the trigger on Hogan/Flair at Mania.

Thoughts?

[Hit Girl]

Hogan wins by DQ when Sid interferes. Warrior rescues him from a beatdown.

Macho feuds with HBK and eventually puts him over as I believe Macho wanted to do anyway..

[SAJ Forth]

Heard they actually burned the houses down, so thinking WrestleMania would be no different.

[Guacamole Anderson]

You mentioned poor house show attendance.

Flair/Hogan was the ONE dream matchup I'd always wanted to see. I was a freshman in college and lived three blocks from the arena. Flair and Hogan wrestled there, and I found out about it... the next day, in the student newspaper.

If they were promoting this card, they certainly weren't reaching fans like me.

[sungod2020]

Jul 19, 2020 13:16:40 GMT -5 Guacamole Anderson said:

You mentioned poor house show attendance.

Flair/Hogan was the ONE dream matchup I'd always wanted to see. I was a freshman in college and lived three blocks from the arena. Flair and Hogan wrestled there, and I found out about it... the next day, in the student newspaper.

If they were promoting this card, they certainly weren't reaching fans like me.

Personally I think the whole poor house show attendance thing was nothing more than a myth. I mean was ANYTHING going to draw at the time? Business as a whole was down from the 1980s. Maybe the reason management felt it bombed was because it didn't bring in ADDITIONAL fans as oppose to their existing fanbase.

Maybe if Flair was brought in the late 80s or so to feud with Hogan, that would be a different story, but thats all speculation. 

[Chairman of the Board]

In the spirit of keeping everything as close to reality as possible here is what I would do...

Flair wins Rumble.
Hogan wins the fan voting for the title shot.
Sid freaks out like he did but instead Savage gets stuck in the crosshairs. “Psycho” Sid attacks Savage.

Hogan vs. Flair is part of a “Double Maint Event” like they had.

Savage/Taker vs. Jake/Sid blowoff is the other half of the double Main Event. Casket match? Only one casket?

Shango interferes in the tag match mid-show (in place of Savage/Flair) and Warrior makes his surprise return to save Liz at ringside from Shango/Sid. Jake takes the fall and leaves the company getting pinned clean or put in casket by Taker as Warrior/Savage run off Sid/Shango...

Hogan vs. Flair closes the show. Sid/Shango (Sid still mad from RR at Hogan) attempt to interfere at the behest of Mr. Perfect. Hogan ends up winning by DQ, Flair retains. Warrior/Savage return to run off Flair/Perfect/Sid/Shango.

The show ends with Warrior, Hogan, Savage posing...

Warrior still moves into a feud with Shango. Hogan still leaves. Warrior/Savage still head in SS92 in the world title picture. Taker beats Jake.


The only loose end is Flair losing the title. Instead of Savage/Warrior at SS92 we get Savage/Flair. SS92 goes down in history with both Savage/Flair and Bret/Davey. 

[cabbageboy]

Flair had been horribly devalued by years of lousy booking in the NWA/WCW. The view that Vince apparently had about Flair being kind of a regional draw has some merit to it. I remember my dad joking about my Grandpa Joe (who lived in NC) talking about Flair a lot "I didn't want to break it to your grandfather that Flair was the champion of a rinky dink league." Hogan vs. Flair was one of those 80s dream matches that just didn't pass muster in the cold light of day. Having watched Flair lose to guys like Ron Garvin why exactly should I think Hogan has much to fear? As a match in the ring it doesn't really work all that great (other than by sheer willpower) because Flair just isn't a fit for any established Hogan feud. He's not the giant heel Hogan did business with. He wasn't a former tag partner that turned heel (Orndorff, Savage). He wasn't a foreign menace. On the other hand Flair did well against big men who could bounce him around the ring (Nikita, Luger, Sting) but while Hogan was a big guy that wasn't his style of wrestling. Hogan liked to sell a lot and make a comeback, but Flair also liked to sell and get killed and then cheat to get an advantage.

I think the bigger factor was this: With Hogan leaving after WM there was no reason for him to go over Flair. But Vince certainly wasn't going to let Flair go over Hogan even with cheating. So the best thing to do was just have Flair/Savage and then Hogan can have an inconclusive match with Sid.

[Deleted]

Hogan/Flair wasn't helped by them immediately making Flair "one of the guys" upon arrival by getting rid of the suits, Nature Boy name, having him cut promos alongside characters like Warlord and Mountie or by doing interviews on Barber Shop/Funeral Parlor.

[Deleted]

Jul 19, 2020 15:10:56 GMT -5 @dcr said:

Hogan/Flair wasn't helped by them immediately making Flair "one of the guys" upon arrival by getting rid of the suits, Nature Boy name, having him cut promos alongside characters like Warlord and Mountie or by doing interviews on Barber Shop/Funeral Parlor.

This and also the fact that WWF really didn't do anything to build him up when he came in.  Instead, they had Monsoon ragging on him on commentary, mocking his title and his legacy.  They never treated him with any respect prior to the Rumble.  As far as booking was concerned, they might as well have brought in Buddy Landel, because Flair was just another cowardly heel taking shortcuts.  If there was poor house show attendance, it's not because of how he was treated by JCP/WCW.  It's because WWF did nothing to turn that around.

As to the original question, I see Hogan winning WM8 but Flair/Heenan finding some way to turn it into a scandal to try to obscure the outcome.  Maybe Hogan intercepted a foreign object during the match that Heenan/Perfect tried to pass off to Flair.  As had been tradition, Hogan/Flair would keep going at least until Summerslam where Flair might find a way to steal the belt from Hogan and send him off to do movies.  Flair would then be a transitional champ between Hogan and Bret.

Prime opportunity for a Savage/HBK feud as well that could run through at least Summerslam, with HBK getting the surprise victory on Savage.  We already know that Savage was willing to do the job for him, even if it was a few years earlier than he planned.  HBK going over Savage and Flair going over Hogan seems like a lot of heels winning at a PPV, but remember they're at Wembley and Bulldog is going to go over Hitman in the main event.

[Chairman of the Board]

Jul 19, 2020 17:28:52 GMT -5 @oldbaby said:

Jul 19, 2020 15:10:56 GMT -5 @dcr said:

Prime opportunity for a Savage/HBK feud as well that could run through at least Summerslam, with HBK getting the surprise victory on Savage.  We already know that Savage was willing to do the job for him, even if it was a few years earlier than he planned.  HBK going over Savage and Flair going over Hogan seems like a lot of heels winning at a PPV, but remember they're at Wembley and Bulldog is going to go over Hitman in the main event.

Not sure Savage and HBK were on the same level by WM8.

[Deleted]

They weren't on the same level. At WM8, they have an epic match with Savage coming out on top. At Summerslam, Savage returns the favor in a huge upset. After that, HBK and Savage are on the same level.

[BlackoutCreature]

If Hogan still needed time off after WrestleMania, here's what I would do -

Have Hogan beat Flair at WrestleMania. Do something dodgy though to set up a re-match, maybe at some point in the match Flair got a shot on Hogan with brass knuckles and had the three count, but the referee was hurt and couldn't make the count. Just something so Flair can claim he would've won.

At the very next set of TV tapings (which as near as I can tell took place two nights later in Toledo) have Hogan lose the title to Flair through shenanigans. Have them go all out with Flair having to do something really dastardly and Hogan having to get stretchered out. With the way the WWF aired tapings at the time they could probably pad this out with promos and backstage stuff, and make it look like Hogan got a good month title reign on television at least.

The WWF announces that Hogan will be out for awhile, in fact he might never return, because of his injuries. Meanwhile Flair continues as Champion for the next year, taking on all top challengers, barely squeaking by with dodgy wins by the skin of his teeth. You might still be able to do the Savage-Flair "she was mine before she was yours" angle after WrestleMania, although the timing of Randy and Liz' divorce might screw this up. At one point set up Bret as the top challenger and he gets a Sting push by going to a one hour time limit draw. It's not a title win, but it does set him up as the next top guy in the company.

Then right before WrestleMania IX, Hogan returns. He challenges Flair to a title match to settle things once and for all. Maybe some kind of gimmick match? Steel Cage? Last Man Standing? Yapapi Strap Match? Hogan wins, then through 1993 we see guys like Hogan and Flair being phased down in favor of a "new generation" of names like Bret, Shawn, Yoko, Razor, etc.

[auph10imitated]

I say this absolutely every single time, it was nothing to do with poor house show attendance or lack of chemistry, that's a rumour that grew legs. Sid had it in his contract that he would be facing Hogan in the ME of Mania, so they were always going that way, it was just a bait and switch storyline.

There was never a time when the Mania main event was testing on house shows previous to Mania, so the theory that a poor house show attendance would actually have any effect at all is rubbish. And as for chemistry, so they thought Flair/Hogan was poor but they were willing to go with Hogan/Bundy, Hogan/Warrior and Hogan/Slaughter without testing chemistry? Again, absolute rubbish.

So basically, it all happened how it was meant to happen and I think had Warrior not left it would have been Warrior vs. Flair since he was positioned as the No.2 babyface behind Hogan in 1991. Had Warrior not been fired in August then Warrior/Jake would have gone through the fall and it would have been Warrior/Flair and Hogan/Sid at Mania with Warrior beating Flair. I think Savage still would have been on the sidelines

The reasoning by the Hogan/Flair HS run in October was likely to get some money out of it before they knew Hogan would be leaving after Mania to film Mr Nanny.

However if Hogan wasnt leaving there is a good chance you have Flair beat Warrior by a shmoz and Flair then defends against Hogan at Summerslam

[jason1980s]

Jul 19, 2020 14:41:53 GMT -5 cabbageboy said:

"I didn't want to break it to your grandfather that Flair was the champion of a rinky dink league."

Even though I watched WCW and bought the Galoob toys, I felt the same way. WXO would have felt like 1991 WCW if WXO had been able to make it as a long term promotion. Hogan's belt had more prestige and given how we felt about Bobby Heenan, Flair's belt meant nothing so no basis for a feud. Also as great as Flair is/was he looked like he was 60 even back then so as a kid he looked ancient. Sid, although coming from WCW, had the look of what a WWF fan was used to at the time. I never got the Macho Man/Flair angle as even as a kid never suspected Flair and Elizabeth having an affair. I thought of life simply through a WCW or WWF lens and Flair and Elizabeth would have never crossed paths being in different promotions in my child like opinion.

Based on the passion of the early days of the feud I think it made more sense than Hogan/Flair. And as a kid you can sense a resentment of Hogan towards Sid and vice versa which made that feud believable. I think Macho needed to go out on top in the last match given how crappy the final match ending was (NOT CHARLES WRIGHT'S FAULT) but even if it were the first match Macho and Flair together early on in the feud could steal the show outside of Piper/Bret. During the latter part of the feud I think both guys saw through it, a makeshift main event feud since things didn't work out between Hogan and Flair and Hogan was probably playing politics again and so Macho and Flair's feud started to suffer. Even by Summerslam it became boring but continued well beyond.

[cabbageboy]

For what it's worth in the Summer of 2005 I went to a house show and saw a dull Cena/HHH match and it was obvious that was a test for a WM main event. Not sure if they did that in the 80s or early 90s however.

When Sid was the guest ref at SS 91 it seems obvious they were planting seeds for Hogan/Sid at some point once Sid did a heel turn. Ironically being handed Flair around the same time confused the issue. If you're Vince it would be better to just have Sid and not worry about Flair. Sid made sense as the typical Hogan opponent, checking multiple boxes of the Hogan feuds I mentioned above (giant dude, ally that turned, etc.).

[floundertime]

Jul 20, 2020 5:46:57 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

I say this absolutely every single time, it was nothing to do with poor house show attendance or lack of chemistry, that's a rumour that grew legs. Sid had it in his contract that he would be facing Hogan in the ME of Mania, so they were always going that way, it was just a bait and switch storyline.

Sid is still waiting for that WM main event, cause he thought that match with Hogan was just a house show

[sungod2020]

Jul 20, 2020 9:06:36 GMT -5 jason1980s said:

Jul 19, 2020 14:41:53 GMT -5 cabbageboy said:

"I didn't want to break it to your grandfather that Flair was the champion of a rinky dink league."

Even though I watched WCW and bought the Galoob toys, I felt the same way. WXO would have felt like 1991 WCW if WXO had been able to make it as a long term promotion. Hogan's belt had more prestige and given how we felt about Bobby Heenan, Flair's belt meant nothing so no basis for a feud. Also as great as Flair is/was he looked like he was 60 even back then so as a kid he looked ancient. Sid, although coming from WCW, had the look of what a WWF fan was used to at the time. I never got the Macho Man/Flair angle as even as a kid never suspected Flair and Elizabeth having an affair. I thought of life simply through a WCW or WWF lens and Flair and Elizabeth would have never crossed paths being in different promotions in my child like opinion.

In kayfabe, I don't think we were suppose to believe Flair and Elizabeth ever crossed paths regardless of who they worked for at the time. It was suppose to add fuel to the fire between him and Savage(which it did). The photos were meant to be doctored just to get under the Macho Man's skin.

I agree with Hogan and Flair not having any in-ring chemistry by the way, I doubt that had anything to do with the Wrestlemania match being scrapped(if it was even planned to begin with). 

[mauled]

Jul 19, 2020 12:50:30 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

So as many of us know, Hulk Hogan was heavily rumored to take on Ric Flair at that years Wrestlemania. In fact, they were already going through the motions of building that match(Flair and Hogan facing off on Superstars at The Funeral Parlor segment, costing him the championship at Survivor Series, etc etc). Yes, we all know that didn't happen(Hogan took on Sid, and Flair took on Savage). 

Lets say regardless of poor house show attendance and lack of in-ring chemistry they've had, how would that match have been booked if the company went ahead with it? Where would happen afterwards?

We all know in this timeline, Hogan took time off after Wrestlemania VIII for various reasons(dwindling popularity, film career etc etc), if he won the match/championship, would he continue to feud with Flair? Who else would be in line? Would he have lost to Flair and take a sabbatical afterwards? I don't think the WWF was ready yet to see a face lose in the main event of Wrestlemania, so I can't say wheather or not that be an option, and a DQ win for Hogan would seem cheap and anti-climatic.

Also, where would that leave Savage if Hogan stayed? Would Bret Hart still be pushed to the WWF championship, or would he have to wait much later than he did?

I'm sure there's more what ifs to come out of this, but I would like to get second and third opinions on how would it go if they decided to pull the trigger on Hogan/Flair at Mania.

Thoughts?

Bret wouldve still been wrestling Piper regardless and Piper was putting him over clean regardless. Bret took off with Summerslam 92. That was what convinced Vince. So the whole Hogan/Flair thing was separate.

[mauled]

Jul 20, 2020 5:46:57 GMT -5 auph10imitated said:

I say this absolutely every single time, it was nothing to do with poor house show attendance or lack of chemistry, that's a rumour that grew legs. Sid had it in his contract that he would be facing Hogan in the ME of Mania, so they were always going that way, it was just a bait and switch storyline.

There was never a time when the Mania main event was testing on house shows previous to Mania, so the theory that a poor house show attendance would actually have any effect at all is rubbish. And as for chemistry, so they thought Flair/Hogan was poor but they were willing to go with Hogan/Bundy, Hogan/Warrior and Hogan/Slaughter without testing chemistry? Again, absolute rubbish.

So basically, it all happened how it was meant to happen and I think had Warrior not left it would have been Warrior vs. Flair since he was positioned as the No.2 babyface behind Hogan in 1991. Had Warrior not been fired in August then Warrior/Jake would have gone through the fall and it would have been Warrior/Flair and Hogan/Sid at Mania with Warrior beating Flair. I think Savage still would have been on the sidelines

The reasoning by the Hogan/Flair HS run in October was likely to get some money out of it before they knew Hogan would be leaving after Mania to film Mr Nanny.

However if Hogan wasnt leaving there is a good chance you have Flair beat Warrior by a shmoz and Flair then defends against Hogan at Summerslam

It wasn't a myth or a bait and switch. House shows were how they made there money back then and there was genuine shock at them not doing well. Im sure at the time Vince genuinely thought that would be a money maker. Meltzer has reported on this too.

Don't forget Flair isn't even wrestling at Summerslam 92, he's doing a run in. Its obvious Vince had lost faith in him.

Now speaking for myself as a child viewer at the time. I had no idea who Flair was and thought he was boring. Jake Roberts and Taker were way cooler heels. He was just some goof who I wished would go away. I'm pretty sure that the majority of the child audience at the time (that WWF was aiming for) had no idea either. Tbh Flairs legend only became a thing after 2002 when he came back and sucked up to Vince and Trips.

And let's not forget Hogan's issues at this time. He'd been caught out over lying on steroids, he was getting booed with fans tired of him. The steroid heet was starting to come down on the WWF and Vince. Hogan like the cunning rat he is knew to make himself scarce by taking some time off.

On the flip side Vince has always been of the Hogan must pose at the end of all Wrestlemanias. Even 4 and 6, it still became about him. So there is no way Flair is going over or that Hogan is not going on last.

All in all this was a pretty natural progression of what happened

[romanstylesiii]

They were WCW's first arena sell-out (post NWA).

The attendance thing is bogus. Hogan was leaving and couldn't really be in a world title match without losing. I don't think Vince wanted to close Mania with a heel winning