Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 237,271
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jul 27, 2020 23:11:20 GMT -5
Im just sick of the way they treat Asuka. Like she is constantly humiliated as a champion outside of the Kabuki Warriors run, and I'm just fed up with it. WWE and their inept ability to push Japanese talent in the main event scene outside of NXT is a serious problem and it makes me wonder why any of them would even wanna go there the more I see it, it's just really bad booking both in execution and look for the company.
As for Bayley and Sasha I started off liking them but with WWE it's the SAME SHIT EVERY SHOW and it wears on you, like it all feels the same, and the fact they gave Sasha the belt means we're just gonna see them all the more. It might be "their time" now with Becky and Charlotte shelved but it feels like a detriment to the entire division that it is.
For a REVOLUTION it really feels like WWE just wants to push like five or six girls throughout both brands at a time, so I guess they succeeded at making them equal to the men in that regard!
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Post by Duke Cameron on Jul 28, 2020 0:47:55 GMT -5
here's the hard part for me. I think the horsewomen should be on top of the division. BUT, how do you feature them without it being dominant, reign of terror esque? If you depush them, who is there to carry the torch and keep fans interested? I really don't think anyone has that star power just yet. Asuka’s definitely talented and popular enough to carry one of the divisions if WWE let her.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 28, 2020 0:59:08 GMT -5
I still kind of find it funny that for months (actually years, but the angle has been only going for months), all the babyfaces have been trying to drive a wedge between Sasha and Bayley, using the Smackdown Women's title as the divider. And yet, every attempt to do so has just made Sasha and Bayley stronger. "Hahaha Sasha, you don't have a title and Bayley does." *Sasha and Bayley win the Women's tag titles* "Hahaha Sasha has only one title and Bayley has two!" *Sasha wins the Raw Women's title* "Uhhhhh shit, they are on equal footing and have all the titles. What do we do now?" I mean, by the time the “big fall” happens, it may be at the point where nobody exactly cares anymore to react to it (basically like if the Jericho/Owens friendship lasted through and never ended at the Festival of Friendship). Yeah, they've teased this breakup since they first started teaming with each other... in like 2016... AND THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH AN ACTUAL BREAKUP ANGLE like 4 times before turning around and going... JUST KIDDING! they are beyond shit or get off the pot at this point... it's just f***ing do it already... no one cares anymore. here's the hard part for me. I think the horsewomen should be on top of the division. BUT, how do you feature them without it being dominant, reign of terror esque? If you depush them, who is there to carry the torch and keep fans interested? I really don't think anyone has that star power just yet. Asuka could have easily. But what you could do with the horsewomen is... you know build star power. Stick them in the lower card feuds building up competitors and making people look strong... stick the horsewomen with other women you want to get over in a tag team... look how much Bliss Cross helped both of them out. Off the top of my head Bel Aire and Banks could work great as a team together as the EST of NXT and The Boss are similar characters that could play off each other well. Bayley with someone else that yells at Cole... cause I'm pretty sure that's her character at this point after the WWE nuked her <-< Charlotte and Baszler both have queen nicknames and Baszler's bully heel schtick could work great as Charlotte's Arn. having them constantly beat everyone they are up against soundly makes the division look like crap and ultimately makes the horsewomen look worse becuase they are the rulers of a crap division.
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Post by RadcapRadsley on Jul 28, 2020 2:03:49 GMT -5
I, for one, welcome our Golden Role Model Overlords. I'd like to remind them as a trusted fan poster, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in Bayley Dos Straps underground sugar caves.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Jul 28, 2020 2:11:49 GMT -5
Vince doesn't know how to book more than like 1 or mayyyyyybe 2 people at a time.
Look at the Men's side of things since the rise of SuperCena. We shouldn't be shocked, he's not talented enough to look past the handed out brass ring.
How long was it Lesnar/Reigns to the detriment of the entire roster in a plot they didn't even pull the trigger on at the right time.
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dbrussel
Don Corleone
Former WOW employee
Posts: 1,807
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Post by dbrussel on Jul 28, 2020 6:10:09 GMT -5
The problem is that this stuff is utter and complete ratings death. I can get overexposing certain talents if they're doing 6.0 ratings and 1.2 buyrates on PPV, but Bayley and Sasha are literally drawing the worst ratings in Raw history. Double your X-Pac Heat, double your fun! Sasha & Bayley are having great numbers in the 18-49 demo. Better than the WWE Champion. Read before speak.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,529
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 28, 2020 6:12:30 GMT -5
Look, I'm cool with a slow burn. The problem is, slow burns have to have some kind of progression and this has been teased since...when.... around the Rumble? That was 6 months ago. The only cracks in their friendship have been Sasha briefly eyeing Bayley's title during segments, and the occasional bit where Bayley/Sasha book a singles/tag match and Bayley/Sasha is less than thrilled.
They way things age headed, they won't pull the trigger until at the very lest, Summerslam and even that seems optimistic, since they still have the tag titles. Not to mention, we're supposed to cheer Sasha when this happens because.....reasons?
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,928
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Post by 4real on Jul 28, 2020 6:18:47 GMT -5
I love Bayley & Sasha but this turn of events doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. As said the angle was Bayley has two titles Sasha does not and Sasha wants Bayley’s title. But now Sasha has 2 belts. So where do you go?
I know Sasha’s Title Reigns have all been short but this ain’t it. She needs to lose the belt back to Asuka sharpish. I’m not sure how long WWE can continue to drag out this Bayley v Sasha will they won’t they storyline.
Also the finish. Didn’t Steph say that if Bayley helped Sasha then Asuka wins? Yes Bayley wasn’t at ringside but her actions still helped her. Unless I missed something.
As said I love Bayley & Sasha but WWE does the same thing they always do shove someone down your throat until you’re sick of them. And I imagine a lot of people are sick of seeing them now even if I’m not. More crap finishes and booking like this and I will be.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,466
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Post by msc on Jul 28, 2020 6:21:27 GMT -5
I thought it was a surprisingly well done finish? Sasha spends the match trying to take down Asuka by any means necessary but when she goes for it in the ring, is over-matched and out cold when Bayley's video attacking Kairi starts. Asuka gets the big moral dilemma and chooses her friend over the title - she isn't going to lose fans over that, it's standard noble face stuff and arguably adds an extra side to Asuka's character that was rarely seen on RAW. Kairi gets to leave (sob), Bayley gets to look unexpectedly vicious, Asuka gets more babyface fire (who doesn't want to see her rip apart Bayley now?) and Sasha has a get out of jail clause. She can not have known what Bayley was going to do to Kairi, leaving seeds for Bayley turning on Sasha, probably within the next few weeks after she drops the belt back to Asuka and the duo lose the tag straps.
WWE is so often very predictable that when they throw a slight curveball with promise, I'll see how it plays out. Of course, many times these balls are dropped by the WWE but so it goes...
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rocket
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,801
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Post by rocket on Jul 28, 2020 6:39:09 GMT -5
Im just sick of the way they treat Asuka. Like she is constantly humiliated as a champion outside of the Kabuki Warriors run, and I'm just fed up with it. WWE and their inept ability to push Japanese talent in the main event scene outside of NXT is a serious problem and it makes me wonder why any of them would even wanna go there the more I see it, it's just really bad booking both in execution and look for the company. As for Bayley and Sasha I started off liking them but with WWE it's the SAME SHIT EVERY SHOW and it wears on you, like it all feels the same, and the fact they gave Sasha the belt means we're just gonna see them all the more. It might be "their time" now with Becky and Charlotte shelved but it feels like a detriment to the entire division that it is. For a REVOLUTION it really feels like WWE just wants to push like five or six girls throughout both brands at a time, so I guess they succeeded at making them equal to the men in that regard! People laughed at me when I thought Ronda debuting right after she won the Rumble was career death. But if you watch WWE long enough (or maybe not even that long enough), you can easily see who they do and do not want to favor.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 28, 2020 6:47:01 GMT -5
It's interesting to think how many promotions manage to have a group of 3-4 top stars for a given division and absolutely run with them, and often pull it off well. I got to mention AJPW's "Four Pillars" from the 1990s the other day, the guys who absolutely dominated the main event scene and got accolade after accolade: people loved to watch them, and business did great.
Yet WWE seems incapable of booking the "ace spot" or a "pillars"-like group well. The four women here are obviously a parallel given how many of them there are, and it'd make sense to have them be the top of the division, but why is it that WWE can't really pull it off without alienating a lot of people, by the looks of it? Is it just the overexposure of so much weekly programming? Lack of variety in opponents? Or is it that there are others on the roster (most would point to Asuka) who could reasonably be argued to be superior to the big four, and thus it feels less earned? I don't watch enough to say, so I'm curious what people think about this.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 237,271
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jul 28, 2020 7:10:29 GMT -5
It's interesting to think how many promotions manage to have a group of 3-4 top stars for a given division and absolutely run with them, and often pull it off well. I got to mention AJPW's "Four Pillars" from the 1990s the other day, the guys who absolutely dominated the main event scene and got accolade after accolade: people loved to watch them, and business did great. Yet WWE seems incapable of booking the "ace spot" or a "pillars"-like group well. The four women here are obviously a parallel given how many of them there are, and it'd make sense to have them be the top of the division, but why is it that WWE can't really pull it off without alienating a lot of people, by the looks of it? Is it just the overexposure of so much weekly programming? Lack of variety in opponents? Or is it that there are others on the roster (most would point to Asuka) who could reasonably be argued to be superior to the big four, and thus it feels less earned? I don't watch enough to say, so I'm curious what people think about this. It's the lack of building around the pillars, or making new stars period. WWE has an uncanny reliance on nostalgia and what worked THEN as opposed to what worked or would work now. Look at how overpushed Reigns was yet they had to coronate him over and over to make him "Truly a new ace" and it still doesn't feel like he is. They chased Ambrose away. Rollins feels like he's been stuck in the same spot for years. They beat Strowman down until when he finally won the title no one cared anymore, and then there are the wrestlers like Ziggler who they consantly throw to the wolves it's a meme at this point. Vince recently said in an interview they need to "Make new stars", well their Summerslam Main Event features a 40 year old who has been what a 12 time world champion? Who just last week faced THE BIG SHOW which has been a MAIN EVENT STAPLE on RAW for WEEKS. The new talent constantly feels like they are lesser to the chosen few or the nostalgia bait, hell look at Lesnar vs Kingston as the prime example of giving the fans something just to kick them in the dick. It's that booking mentality that has driven so many away. WWE has no variety and no feeling of unpredictability. The ONE TIME we got that we got World Champion JINDER MAHAL for months... it's just not working anymore, and people are sick of it. So long story short it's a cobination of old talent being pushed, the same old shit, people who never actually seem to succeed that the fans WANT TO and when they do there's a good chance WWE makes them look like a joke or it seem like a fluke, the matches on the shows especially always feeling so meaningless and hollow with the DQs and countouts to the point TITLE CHANGES are happening on countouts now, and the constant overpushng and oversaturation of the select few stars that WWE seems to in fact care about, leads to this giant cauldron of mess that RAW especially now has, and I don't know if WWE's ever going to recover from it fully.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 28, 2020 7:13:14 GMT -5
Goddamn they've booked Asuka into the ground. As strongly as Becky put her over she's just been completely f***ing pathetic ever since. Asuka’s extraordinarily protected, probably more than any other woman on the roster.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 7:19:12 GMT -5
Goddamn they've booked Asuka into the ground. As strongly as Becky put her over she's just been completely f***ing pathetic ever since. Asuka’s extraordinarily protected, probably more than any other woman on the roster. By and large but ever since she was given the belt she's been pathetic. Lost to Charlotte twice then only managed to beat her in a title match due to her having been injured in the show, she's lost to Sasha in every single match of their feud, and was never allowed to get anything remotely resembling a definitive win over Nia Jax of all people, all while in between people've been constantly going on about how she needs to prove herself as champion which she's been completely incapable of doing.
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Post by theironyuppie on Jul 28, 2020 7:25:23 GMT -5
Goddamn they've booked Asuka into the ground. As strongly as Becky put her over she's just been completely f***ing pathetic ever since. Asuka’s extraordinarily protected, probably more than any other woman on the roster. Becky’s been remarkably protected over the last two years. In that time she took one clean pinfall (and beat up Charlotte afterwards) and one clean submission (and won the Rumble on the same night.) Charlotte is probably still out for a while, too; talksport.com/sport/wrestling/738623/charlotte-flair-wwe-tv-offers-surgery/
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Jul 28, 2020 7:28:17 GMT -5
Disagree. Bayley and Sasha are the bright spots of WWE right now, along with Asuka.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jul 28, 2020 7:28:25 GMT -5
It's interesting to think how many promotions manage to have a group of 3-4 top stars for a given division and absolutely run with them, and often pull it off well. I got to mention AJPW's "Four Pillars" from the 1990s the other day, the guys who absolutely dominated the main event scene and got accolade after accolade: people loved to watch them, and business did great. Yet WWE seems incapable of booking the "ace spot" or a "pillars"-like group well. The four women here are obviously a parallel given how many of them there are, and it'd make sense to have them be the top of the division, but why is it that WWE can't really pull it off without alienating a lot of people, by the looks of it? Is it just the overexposure of so much weekly programming? Lack of variety in opponents? Or is it that there are others on the roster (most would point to Asuka) who could reasonably be argued to be superior to the big four, and thus it feels less earned? I don't watch enough to say, so I'm curious what people think about this. It's weird because, for as much as the "Four Horsewomen" label gets thrown around, it's only really been in the last two years that Lynch, Banks and Bayley have been put on the same pedestal as Flair booking-wise. Hell, it's arguable that Banks still isn't quite there yet, which is a lot of the reason why people have given the Bayley/Banks pairing in its current form space to breathe up until now, because it was ostensibly meant to end with Banks finally getting HER BIG RUN as the main roster ace after SO MANY false starts. Now, with it looking unlikely to get blown off at SummerSlam, reality has set in that we're stuck with this for another six months AT LEAST as they probably hold off until the next WrestleMania.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,529
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 28, 2020 8:10:02 GMT -5
It's interesting to think how many promotions manage to have a group of 3-4 top stars for a given division and absolutely run with them, and often pull it off well. I got to mention AJPW's "Four Pillars" from the 1990s the other day, the guys who absolutely dominated the main event scene and got accolade after accolade: people loved to watch them, and business did great. Yet WWE seems incapable of booking the "ace spot" or a "pillars"-like group well. The four women here are obviously a parallel given how many of them there are, and it'd make sense to have them be the top of the division, but why is it that WWE can't really pull it off without alienating a lot of people, by the looks of it? Is it just the overexposure of so much weekly programming? Lack of variety in opponents? Or is it that there are others on the roster (most would point to Asuka) who could reasonably be argued to be superior to the big four, and thus it feels less earned? I don't watch enough to say, so I'm curious what people think about this. It's weird because, for as much as the "Four Horsewomen" label gets thrown around, it's only really been in the last two years that Lynch, Banks and Bayley have been put on the same pedestal as Flair booking-wise. Hell, it's arguable that Banks still isn't quite there yet, which is a lot of the reason why people have given the Bayley/Banks pairing in its current form space to breathe up until now, because it was ostensibly meant to end with Banks finally getting HER BIG RUN as the main roster ace after SO MANY false starts. Now, with it looking unlikely to get blown off at SummerSlam, reality has set in that we're stuck with this for another six months AT LEAST as they probably hold off until the next WrestleMania. The problem is that even with what you said about the rest of the 4HW's standing in relation to Flair, who else on the roster other than Alexa Bliss and Rousey (for the 1 year she was around) has been consistently booked to look strong over that period? There's a whole roster of girls who were booked to look credible for a month or 2 in order to take an L from Becky/Flair and then shuffled right back down
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 28, 2020 8:11:53 GMT -5
It's interesting to think how many promotions manage to have a group of 3-4 top stars for a given division and absolutely run with them, and often pull it off well. I got to mention AJPW's "Four Pillars" from the 1990s the other day, the guys who absolutely dominated the main event scene and got accolade after accolade: people loved to watch them, and business did great. Yet WWE seems incapable of booking the "ace spot" or a "pillars"-like group well. The four women here are obviously a parallel given how many of them there are, and it'd make sense to have them be the top of the division, but why is it that WWE can't really pull it off without alienating a lot of people, by the looks of it? Is it just the overexposure of so much weekly programming? Lack of variety in opponents? Or is it that there are others on the roster (most would point to Asuka) who could reasonably be argued to be superior to the big four, and thus it feels less earned? I don't watch enough to say, so I'm curious what people think about this. I think it's a lot of factors all conspiring together in different ways, but most of them come from the writer's room. At the time Becky began her ascent and pushed on to carry both titles, she was a relatively fresh main event presence; a fan favorite who had a title run once, got thwarted by a heel, and spent every moment since as the runner up. Even her getting a big push she did, while some people weren't feeling it, continued to work because it was someone new and who the fanbase wanted getting a rocket strapped to their ass. They just never backed their foot off the pedal over it. Becky went on to have underwhelming feuds across a reign lasting more than a year. In that time, she didn't really have many great feuds. The way WWE draws it out its storytelling, few people had the chance to rise up against her in the time span of her reign; she feuded on PPV with Lacey (in that horrible intergender story that marked her first title-having feud as one built around her real life relationship while neither really looked eager to be in that position on-screen), with Nattie, Sasha, then the Survivor Series match that kind of came and went, then the women's tag feud where she teamed up with Charlotte, then a "this is filler' feud with Asuka, then the Shayna clusterf***. Across a year she didn't do very much, half the time it wasn't really about her title, she beat every challenger made for her--even one who had to chew through the rest of the division only to get slapped down--and then only dropped the title when she got pregnant. Becky caught fire and it was great. But it never really found a balance. It was just all Becky all the time, with Shayna's rise being the most over the top attempt to make a challenger and then shove them back into a box once they lost. It was like classic Hogan monster booking but in fast forward and decades after its sell-by date. WWE took one of its most over women and made her from a plucky underdog into the establishment and never looked back. No subtlety, no nuance, no moment where they made her meaningfully vulnerable. Similarly, I remember a thread where I tracked Charlotte's booking since her return last summer and noted that she was either in the title scene or in some way 'over' the title scene in every PPV she was booked on since returning. There's never really any give once they start firing people up. No moments of downtime, no pulls back. And permanency isn't inherently a problem for top stars. What is a problem is when the stories behind it suck. AJPW got a lot out of its top stars, and it rode their key interactions to major storylines and amazing matches that told incredible stories in the ring. Back when Hogan was vanquishing big monsters and threats to America, the nation at large really wanted to see nothing more than a big, muscular patriot beating up bad guys. We're talking about the Reagan years, the heyday of action movie stars as major celebrities whose big, patriotic victories were a victory for the nation at large. The product Vince put forward in the '80s tracks as an action movie taking place in a wrestling ring. At the time and place where those happened, everything that Vince put out was ripe for his audience, who wanted to see it. WWE doesn't tell Hogan stories anymore, and that's a good thing, because that format doesn't have the cultural cache it did 35 years ago. But in its place they aren't really telling stories that have any cultural cache either, and they aren't landing with their audience as well because they lack the tools to make people care. We have these top stars. They do things. Those things aren't particularly well written. Their matches don't really get to shine because they're all the same and WWE is largely allergic to match-based storytelling. Bayley and Sasha in particular have been locked in this awful friendship storyline for years now and the other shoe never drops, so they aren't even fighting each other or coming to blows, they just sit and stew and sit on the top of the throne. The only person who can defeat any of them are each other, and they will stomp over anybody else in their way. Asuka didn't get to beat Becky for her title, she was handed the vacated title after winning a match involving no Horsewomen, and then another Horsewoman takes it, so that right now all three main roster women's titles are concentrated onto these two women--the only two of the group present--and given the way that the show doesn't bother giving meaningful programs to women not in title scenes, right now everything is all about them again. They're the focus, everyone else is chumps. Another element is excess. WWE does everything in excess. Three of the four Horsewomen are now double champions, and that's happened within less than eighteen months. That's insanity. They throw the book at every story that comes their way and hotshot tropes over and over because it's easier to tell a story where lots of shit happens without meaning than to write a story where meaningful things happen. WWE has burned out nearly every trope it could use by overusing all of them to the point of audience exhaustion, so I think people end up numb to a lot of things. There's stories than still mean something, there's times people get positive; usually, that's to stories WWE doesn't tell often or which end up being deceptively well written, like the Seth-seeks-Dean's-forgiveness story or Kofi's rise to the top. Both involved genuine on-screen relationships going back years, continuity, and personal vulnerability. Those are things we don't get on screen in Vinceland near-ever. But outside of that, so much on-screen just happens because it's all so overused and so paint by numbers, with stories in matches that don't exist. The energy in a room with friends watching a WWE show versus watching any other company's show is palpable, and I think that watching AEW and NJPW in a room with other people really helped me zero in on how little emotional impact what WWE does has. And when you're largely numb to the stories being told and not really full of positive emotions, what does that leave? Irritation. Frustration. You're watching a mediocre TV show that has great wrestlers putting on matches that don't live up to their potential and fumbling through inept storylines. And sometimes those storylines go from just kinda not well put together to actively terrible. It's way more difficult to give leeway to a show when at every turn they're failing to entertain you. Its flaws are a lot uglier because there's nowhere near as much 'good' to focus on. Its bad ideas show through a lot harder and the things it overexposes wear their welcome out faster. Most of the problems in WWE right now aren't really simply explained with "I'd rather see Asuka". That's too simple. That's too fixable. Where WWE's biggest flaws lie right now is how the interlocking failings of how the show is put together create a laundry list of issues that all feed back to a lot of the same failings time and again. Structural problems beyond any simple fix that end up creating a convoluted mess too labyrinthine to diagnose in any simple method you can just point to and say "If this happened, it would be better". Because years ago we were here with Becky. It didn't work. WWE has too many issues at its most fundamental and systemic issues right now and its problems aren't going to be fixed by anything short of completely gutting the show and overhauling its creative direction. Which as an answer is drastic as all hell. But it's how far this company's reached in its problems
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Post by BorneAgain on Jul 28, 2020 8:22:19 GMT -5
They Bayley/Sasha push reminds me a lot of the Two Man Power Trip period in 2001 where the WWF pushed those two so hard (including giving them the tag belts and the top singles titles) and were so focused on giving them heat that the show (and ratings) suffered for it.
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