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Post by mistery on Jul 28, 2020 8:48:14 GMT -5
They Bayley/Sasha push reminds me a lot of the Two Man Power Trip period in 2001 where the WWF pushed those two so hard (including giving them the tag belts and the top singles titles) and were so focused on giving them heat that the show (and ratings) suffered for it. Yup. It's why I think this whole two woman power trip thing is going to backfire horribly on WWE. Bryan and Dave mentioned during their RAW review last night that WWE is too busy booking for non-stop heat these days. They went on to mention that while the finish last night would work in the old 1960s-1990s eras, that no longer works in a modern generation. People want satisfying finishes with the face winning. Not whatever the hell they are doing with Sasha and Bayley running over the entire division and never facing any setbacks. In any normal promotion, this would set up Asuka getting her revenge on Sasha and Bayley. But this is WWE, and they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to the story. There's a decent chance they just screw over Asuka again because all they care about is heat. They've dropped the ball so many times even with easy layups like this. And for the people talking about how Sasha and Bayley have been good for ratings, they really haven't been over the past several weeks. They've suffered massive drops on both RAW and Smackdown for the most part. And the common demoninator is that Sasha and Bayley have been massively overexposed, and their gimmick has gone from being "heels you want to see beat" to just being channel changing.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 28, 2020 9:01:03 GMT -5
They Bayley/Sasha push reminds me a lot of the Two Man Power Trip period in 2001 where the WWF pushed those two so hard (including giving them the tag belts and the top singles titles) and were so focused on giving them heat that the show (and ratings) suffered for it. Yup. It's why I think this whole two woman power trip thing is going to backfire horribly on WWE. Bryan and Dave mentioned during their RAW review last night that WWE is too busy booking for non-stop heat these days. They went on to mention that while the finish last night would work in the old 1960s-1990s eras, that no longer works in a modern generation. People want satisfying finishes with the face winning. Not whatever the hell they are doing with Sasha and Bayley running over the entire division and never facing any setbacks. In any normal promotion, this would set up Asuka getting her revenge on Sasha and Bayley. But this is WWE, and they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to the story. There's a decent chance they just screw over Asuka again because all they care about is heat. They've dropped the ball so many times even with easy layups like this. And for the people talking about how Sasha and Bayley have been good for ratings, they really haven't been over the past several weeks. They've suffered massive drops on both RAW and Smackdown for the most part. And the common demoninator is that Sasha and Bayley have been massively overexposed, and their gimmick has gone from being "heels you want to see beat" to just being channel changing. Where have you seen quarter hour breakdowns for Raw and Smackdown? I’d be surprised if Sasha and Bayley were the low points of the show.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 28, 2020 9:02:16 GMT -5
It's weird because, for as much as the "Four Horsewomen" label gets thrown around, it's only really been in the last two years that Lynch, Banks and Bayley have been put on the same pedestal as Flair booking-wise. Hell, it's arguable that Banks still isn't quite there yet, which is a lot of the reason why people have given the Bayley/Banks pairing in its current form space to breathe up until now, because it was ostensibly meant to end with Banks finally getting HER BIG RUN as the main roster ace after SO MANY false starts. Now, with it looking unlikely to get blown off at SummerSlam, reality has set in that we're stuck with this for another six months AT LEAST as they probably hold off until the next WrestleMania. The problem is that even with what you said about the rest of the 4HW's standing in relation to Flair, who else on the roster other than Alexa Bliss and Rousey (for the 1 year she was around) has been consistently booked to look strong over that period? There's a whole roster of girls who were booked to look credible for a month or 2 in order to take an L from Becky/Flair and then shuffled right back down Flair, Sasha, Bayley, Becky, Asuka, Jax, Bliss and Rousey have all been booked very strong and protected for the most part in recent years.
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Post by BorneAgain on Jul 28, 2020 9:02:40 GMT -5
They Bayley/Sasha push reminds me a lot of the Two Man Power Trip period in 2001 where the WWF pushed those two so hard (including giving them the tag belts and the top singles titles) and were so focused on giving them heat that the show (and ratings) suffered for it. Yup. It's why I think this whole two woman power trip thing is going to backfire horribly on WWE. Bryan and Dave mentioned during their RAW review last night that WWE is too busy booking for non-stop heat these days. They went on to mention that while the finish last night would work in the old 1960s-1990s eras, that no longer works in a modern generation. People want satisfying finishes with the face winning. Not whatever the hell they are doing with Sasha and Bayley running over the entire division and never facing any setbacks. In any normal promotion, this would set up Asuka getting her revenge on Sasha and Bayley. But this is WWE, and they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to the story. There's a decent chance they just screw over Asuka again because all they care about is heat. They've dropped the ball so many times even with easy layups like this. And for the people talking about how Sasha and Bayley have been good for ratings, they really haven't been over the past several weeks. They've suffered massive drops on both RAW and Smackdown for the most part. And the common demoninator is that Sasha and Bayley have been massively overexposed, and their gimmick has gone from being "heels you want to see beat" to just being channel changing. Its reminiscent of some of the issues of how the Authority was booked where it wasn't just how much Steph and HHH were showcased, but that the babyfaces were often presented as sad victims who just took the verbal and physical beatings. Imagine if for the last week and a half Asuka was presented as a pissed off babyface on the hunt, chasing Bayley and Sasha from show to show to get her physical title back and both of them just barely escaping by the skin of their teeth, with even two on one attacks only barely slowing her down. If after Sasha's victory last night they both had to flee in their car and get the hell out of dodge because Asuka looks like she's legitimately going to be breaking limbs if she gets close. Its okay to have heat, but there needs to be a sense that the face's payback is not that far off. McMahon would often get one over on Austin in their feud which worked because Austin sold how pissed off he was and everyone knew Vince would pay badly for it and soon. Is there any confidence that Asuka will get any sort of revenge, let alone her title back? That she'll do anything past a token babyface attack we've already seen numerous times? I doubt it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 9:02:48 GMT -5
This is exactly why I do not buy into that crap about Vince saying we need to make new stars especially as it pretains to the women on the main roster.
As long as they are around he will NEVER let any other upsurp them in the food chain.
I mean just look at the past almost 2yrs now.
Becky had her insanely long over powered reign in which no one benefited Becky then left They then doubled...no no tripled down on Charlotte on every show Charlotte left Now they have doubled....no no no tripled down on the 4H they have left and now have made it insufferable with them holding every single womens title with the exception of 1.
And not for a single f***ing second do I believe that as soon as Charlotte returns she will not be right back to where she was clearly going to be at the top of the womend division again while everyone else has to listen to her drone on about blah blah queen blah blah and then when Becky returns to repeat myself...it will be like we never left early 2020 again.
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 28, 2020 9:05:56 GMT -5
The problem is that even with what you said about the rest of the 4HW's standing in relation to Flair, who else on the roster other than Alexa Bliss and Rousey (for the 1 year she was around) has been consistently booked to look strong over that period? There's a whole roster of girls who were booked to look credible for a month or 2 in order to take an L from Becky/Flair and then shuffled right back down Flair, Sasha, Bayley, Becky, Asuka, Jax, Bliss and Rousey have all been booked very strong and protected for the most part in recent years. I asked other than the 4HW (Bayley,Banks,Charlotte and Becky) who has been booked well? I gave you Bliss and Rousey for her year tenure. Now, you named Asuka and Jax. Asuka has been booked as a moron, and inferior to the 4HW time and time againt and Jax has been yoyo booked and was also injured for the better part of the last year and a half.
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Post by mistery on Jul 28, 2020 9:06:48 GMT -5
Yup. It's why I think this whole two woman power trip thing is going to backfire horribly on WWE. Bryan and Dave mentioned during their RAW review last night that WWE is too busy booking for non-stop heat these days. They went on to mention that while the finish last night would work in the old 1960s-1990s eras, that no longer works in a modern generation. People want satisfying finishes with the face winning. Not whatever the hell they are doing with Sasha and Bayley running over the entire division and never facing any setbacks. In any normal promotion, this would set up Asuka getting her revenge on Sasha and Bayley. But this is WWE, and they haven't earned the benefit of the doubt in regards to the story. There's a decent chance they just screw over Asuka again because all they care about is heat. They've dropped the ball so many times even with easy layups like this. And for the people talking about how Sasha and Bayley have been good for ratings, they really haven't been over the past several weeks. They've suffered massive drops on both RAW and Smackdown for the most part. And the common demoninator is that Sasha and Bayley have been massively overexposed, and their gimmick has gone from being "heels you want to see beat" to just being channel changing. Its reminiscent of some of the issues of how the Authority was booked where it wasn't just how much Steph and HHH were showcased, but that the babyfaces were often presented as sad victims who just took the verbal and physical beatings. Imagine if for the last week and a half Asuka was presented as a pissed off babyface on the hunt, chasing Bayley and Sasha from show to show to get her physical title back and both of them just barely escaping by the skin of their teeth, with even two on one attacks only barely slowing her down. If after Sasha's victory last night they both had to flee in their car and get the hell out of dodge because Asuka looks like she's legitimately going to be breaking limbs if she gets close. Its okay to have heat, but there needs to be a sense that the face's payback is not that far off. McMahon would often get one over on Austin in their feud which worked because Austin sold how pissed off he was and everyone knew Vince would pay badly for it and soon. Is there any confidence that Asuka will get any sort of revenge, let alone her title back? That she'll do anything past a token babyface attack we've already seen numerous times? I doubt it. It's why I mentioned WWE doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt here. They are completely incapable of telling a basic story or try to "spice things up" to be clever, just to fall flat on their face. And as an Asuka fan, I'm absolutely sick and fed up of being told to "wait and see how the story plays out". Every single time that's happened, it's never ended well for Asuka.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 28, 2020 9:16:09 GMT -5
Flair, Sasha, Bayley, Becky, Asuka, Jax, Bliss and Rousey have all been booked very strong and protected for the most part in recent years. I asked other than the 4HW (Bayley,Banks,Charlotte and Becky) who has been booked well? I gave you Bliss and Rousey for her year tenure. Now, you named Asuka and Jax. Asuka has been booked as a moron, and inferior to the 4HW time and time againt and Jax has been yoyo booked and was also injured for the better part of the last year and a half. Right so you already named 6 strongly booked individuals and I added 2 more. So we’re talking about two shows and 8 strongly booked talent. How many strongly booked wrestlers do you need in the main event title scene of a show? That doesn’t even include those in the lower to midcard with potential that they can still push if needed. Asuka has been booked super strong throughout her run. How many matches has she lost clean since her debut? Maybe 3-4? Jax is certainly booked strong as well. She takes some losses from time to time but I’d say she’s a credible threat.
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 28, 2020 9:20:48 GMT -5
I asked other than the 4HW (Bayley,Banks,Charlotte and Becky) who has been booked well? I gave you Bliss and Rousey for her year tenure. Now, you named Asuka and Jax. Asuka has been booked as a moron, and inferior to the 4HW time and time againt and Jax has been yoyo booked and was also injured for the better part of the last year and a half. Right so you already named 6 strongly booked individuals and I added 2 more. So we’re talking about two shows and 8 strongly booked talent. How many strongly booked wrestlers do you need in the main event title scene of a show? That doesn’t even include those in the lower to midcard with potential that they can still push if needed. Asuka has been booked super strong throughout her run. How many matches has she lost clean since her debut? Maybe 3-4? Jax is certainly booked strong as well. She takes some losses from time to time but I’d say she’s a credible threat. ...The point of this thread is how the 4 Horsewomen are booked TOO STRONG. So, I named *2* people OTHER than them who have had decent booking. Asuka has lost clean......to Charlotte and Becky several times and made to look like a total ass against Banks. Jax was a credible threat when she went after Bliss. Then she lost the title and did a bunch of nothing until getting hurt. Everyone else is kinda just there. As I said earlier, booked well long enough to lost to Charlotte/Becky/Bayley and then right back down the card to nowheresville ya go.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 28, 2020 9:23:20 GMT -5
It's interesting to think how many promotions manage to have a group of 3-4 top stars for a given division and absolutely run with them, and often pull it off well. I got to mention AJPW's "Four Pillars" from the 1990s the other day, the guys who absolutely dominated the main event scene and got accolade after accolade: people loved to watch them, and business did great. Yet WWE seems incapable of booking the "ace spot" or a "pillars"-like group well. The four women here are obviously a parallel given how many of them there are, and it'd make sense to have them be the top of the division, but why is it that WWE can't really pull it off without alienating a lot of people, by the looks of it? Is it just the overexposure of so much weekly programming? Lack of variety in opponents? Or is it that there are others on the roster (most would point to Asuka) who could reasonably be argued to be superior to the big four, and thus it feels less earned? I don't watch enough to say, so I'm curious what people think about this. I think the even-steven booking is a big problem why WWE struggles with aces. For one thing, the aces aren't as strong as they should be. I think not just Charlotte but all of the Horsewomen taking so many clean losses on television (often as champions no less), which could be seen an effort to not make them seem like they're too protected by the promotion outside of kayfabe, is very counter-productive. That's way too meta and inside-baseball for casual audiences, because they're not watching wrestling to see a "who does the front office love?" narrative. What new fans want is to lose themselves in the narrative of exciting competition. It's better to have a small handful of wrestlers selected to not lose for extended periods- the company pillars- so when they do lose, it has a bigger impact for the rising stars who can take them out. And here's the key point- everyone isn't going to love the ace, and that's fine. But it's also wrong to act like the fans don't like winners. People will always bash the Patriots, but much like the Yankees, they are always a big draw. When guys like Hogan, Goldberg, Austin, Misawa, Hashimoto Rock, Cena, Bret, up to Okada and Tanahashi today, there were always a small handful of fans who loved other mid-carders and rooted for them to rise to the top. And granted, there are instances with all the names mentioned in which they were probably too over-protected at points. But because the company stayed consistent and actually protected these people, they stayed popular in spite of their haters because they were properly filling their chosen role. The manner in which WWE yo-yo booked Roman Reigns up and down the card while showcasing him so much in ads was going to irritate all of the fans, because a large portion of the older crowd just wanted them to establish Roman as a great champion to "get it over with" while many newer fans likely saw him as a guy who couldn't win the big one yet was heavily hyped anyway. Had Roman had some more consistent runs as a champion who truly was the man and "pillar" of WWE's male roster, actually filling his chosen role, there would still probably be some backlash but they likely would have been able to manage it better. There's no universe where everyone collectively loves a top performer, but the lack of consistency hurts everyone on the show.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 9:23:33 GMT -5
It's crazy how Asuka's been a Royal Rumble and Money in the Bank winner and SD, Raw, and Women's Tag Champ in the last 2 years yet it still feels like she's misused. WWE really is all about STATZ instead of good stories and booking.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 28, 2020 9:32:50 GMT -5
Right so you already named 6 strongly booked individuals and I added 2 more. So we’re talking about two shows and 8 strongly booked talent. How many strongly booked wrestlers do you need in the main event title scene of a show? That doesn’t even include those in the lower to midcard with potential that they can still push if needed. Asuka has been booked super strong throughout her run. How many matches has she lost clean since her debut? Maybe 3-4? Jax is certainly booked strong as well. She takes some losses from time to time but I’d say she’s a credible threat. ...The point of this thread is how the 4 Horsewomen are booked TOO STRONG. So, I named *2* people OTHER than them who have had decent booking. Asuka has lost clean......to Charlotte and Becky several times and made to look like a total ass against Banks. Jax was a credible threat when she went after Bliss. Then she lost the title and did a bunch of nothing until getting hurt. Everyone else is kinda just there. As I said earlier, booked well long enough to lost to Charlotte/Becky/Bayley and then right back down the card to nowheresville ya go. Going to agree to disagree on Asuka. She’s lost clean I think to Becky twice and Charlotte once or twice. That’s really it. And she’s beaten pretty much everyone in the division cleanly herself, including Becky and Bayley (and maybe Charlotte, although one of the wins may have been via misting).
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Post by mistery on Jul 28, 2020 9:34:25 GMT -5
So WWE uploaded the video of the match, and its far less one sided than I thought in terms of like:dislike percentage. I figured it would be a typical WWE video in which there would only be a handful of dislikes, but it's sitting at roughly 35-40% dislikes. Which is staggering for a video featuring Sasha Banks coming out on top.
Which probably indicates that the other WWE 4HW are definitely hitting that overexposure level that Charlotte is at.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 28, 2020 9:37:33 GMT -5
So WWE uploaded the video of the match, and its far less one sided than I thought in terms of like:dislike percentage. I figured it would be a typical WWE video in which there would only be a handful of dislikes, but it's sitting at roughly 35-40% dislikes. Which is staggering for a video featuring Sasha Banks coming out on top. Which probably indicates that the other WWE 4HW are definitely hitting that overexposure level that Charlotte is at. It’s probably more the booking than the winner being Sasha. I’d assume the likes/dislikes would be normal if Sasha had pinned her or made her submit.
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Post by Harry The Arrow was Wrong! on Jul 28, 2020 10:06:20 GMT -5
Big fan of both performers, especially their recent work. Bayley in particular is one of the few people I still keep up to date with in wwe since she has been killing it as a heel. The finish last night sucked though. Great match with two of the best and it ends with a title change due to countout? That's some f***ery right there. I have no issue with Bayley and Sasha being the top heels since they are consistently great but that finish? Nah man, that sucks ass.
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Post by sunnytaker on Jul 28, 2020 10:07:53 GMT -5
They are setting these two up for a strong downfall but yeah without Becky and Charlotte, it is their time to reign supreme That strong downfall will hopefully be at Summerslam, with Asuka going over Sasha incredibly strong. i'm actually thinking about a swerve now. bayley was the one who "took out kairi ending her wwe run" and cost asuka the title. and bayley conveniently has her own title match this friday. i don;t think they pull the trigger on a nikki title win, since they seem to be building to a nikki/alexa feud after, presumably- nikki comes up short again and snaps. so that would lead in to asuka murdering bayley (given no one on smackdown has shown any signs of being in the title hunt for a summerslam match) after the match to set them up for a summerslam match where asuka wins the smackdown title. sasha of course is all "i beat asuka, why couldn't you?' to bayley afterwards and as the remaining 2 belter starts the seeds for the eleven million year build to sasha/bayley main roster feud to finally take place. edit- and as someone pointed out on the other board- sasha was out cold before asuka took off, so she would have failed to answer a ten count before the ten count for asuka finished thus asuka should technically be the winner of the match
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2020 10:11:50 GMT -5
Apart from the title change (on a f***ing countout is horseshit) I thought the sequence leading to that was not terrible and honestly I believe it is exactly how it all is going to fall apart for the role models.
Asuka had to choose and she chose to save little sister over being selfish.
Sasha and Bayley are likely to be put in the same scenario and this is where greed will cost them everything
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Post by cabbageboy on Jul 28, 2020 10:18:15 GMT -5
Thing is, the WWF never did finishes like Asuka/Sasha last night back in the 80s. I can't think of a single time they did something like that. I guess there was the Hogan/Andre rematch where they did the screwjob of all time, but that was a once in a decade piece of booking that ended a 4 year title run. For the most part the WWF was built on the face winning clean in the end.
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Post by Kalmia on Jul 28, 2020 10:40:43 GMT -5
I like both Bayley and Sasha and I'm enjoying this storyline, but these developments with Asuka just seem counterproductive to me. Surely the more sensible way to book it was to have Sasha fail at winning the title. Maybe Bayley's interference backfires or she doesn't interfere at all when Sasha thinks she should, and that sparks the fallout. Then they wrestle for Bayley's title at SummerSlam while Asuka does her own thing (maybe with Bazler)
Now both Bayley and Sasha have title belts, where do they go? They both have what they want and are happy. I guess someone has to lose their singles title, but it just seems an unnecessary step when they could have told a better, more concise story.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jul 28, 2020 11:04:02 GMT -5
I like both Bayley and Sasha and I'm enjoying this storyline, but these developments with Asuka just seem counterproductive to me. Surely the more sensible way to book it was to have Sasha fail at winning the title. Maybe Bayley's interference backfires or she doesn't interfere at all when Sasha thinks she should, and that sparks the fallout. Then they wrestle for Bayley's title at SummerSlam while Asuka does her own thing (maybe with Bazler) Now both Bayley and Sasha have title belts, where do they go? They both have what they want and are happy. I guess someone has to lose their singles title, but it just seems an unnecessary step when they could have told a better, more concise story. The way it should’ve gone is that Bayley attemtps to bypass the interference rules and it backfires. Then on Smackdown, Sasha seemingly forgives her friend... only to angrily destroy her in a brutal beatdown. Then next Monday, they drop the tag titles.
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