FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,434
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Post by FinalGwen on Apr 18, 2022 12:31:02 GMT -5
I quite liked how the Thasmin stuff was handled, Yaz is one of the most undeniably queer characters we've ever had in the show It was never all that apparent in the show when this era started, and the creators have all admitted it was a last minute thing. Stop listening to Twitter. She and Jodie never had any chemistry together, she's only capable of one dour emotion, and the whole thing has felt unbelievably shoe-horned in. "Stop listening to Twitter". Wow, could you be a little more condescending please? I'm under no apprehension that it was always intended, but I'm very glad that they listened to fans and worked it in and made it a big part of Yaz's character in recent episodes. In an era where the BBC are, as Lilith mentioned, not exactly favourable to LGBT people, rather than ignoring the fanbase and leaving the era with much less rep, they chose to give Yaz a coming out arc, even meeting and comparing experiences with the last generation's main queer-character-into-the-Doctor to solidify that connection (even though Barrowman kinda screwed that up), then making it more explicit in the stories since, and I'm glad they did.
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Post by thechase on Apr 18, 2022 12:44:41 GMT -5
It was never all that apparent in the show when this era started, and the creators have all admitted it was a last minute thing. Stop listening to Twitter. She and Jodie never had any chemistry together, she's only capable of one dour emotion, and the whole thing has felt unbelievably shoe-horned in. "Stop listening to Twitter". Wow, could you be a little more condescending please? First, yes, I apologize for that, I tried rewording my post a bit. If the goal is to have Yaz become more centred and confidant in her own skin by the end of the final special, and leave on her terms confident she can have someone that makes her happy, then I understand your point and I hope that this is the case for the end of that arc, but I just don't feel like it's been executed very well, and it doesn't help that Yaz has such a wooden character who is underdeveloped in almost every area.
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Post by thechase on Apr 23, 2022 15:12:18 GMT -5
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Post by Ryushinku on Apr 23, 2022 16:00:53 GMT -5
That must be the fastest time between being on the show and recording audio stories with Big Finish.
I mean, hell, Dhawan is going to be appearing on tv again in just a few months, and it wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that Chibnall puts up the Fugitive Doctor while he still can.
It's also reminding me again that...man, I wish the Fugitive Doctor was just either the Fourteenth Doctor or a future one. Because as intended, she doesn't even call herself the Doctor, she's explicitly before the Doctor decides to name themselves that. And she certainly wouldn't think of herself as a fugitive.
I find this settled name for her really awkward every time.
She has a TARDIS stuck in a shape that it shouldn't be stuck in and using a name she doesn't use. I like the actress and I like the performance. As a character, It just feels off. Doesn't help that I don't like the Division and Timeless Children stuff either, I admit.
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Post by thechase on Apr 29, 2022 6:54:44 GMT -5
Doctor Who Magazine had a big tell all interview with Chibnall this month
-He acknowledges his weakest script was the series 11 finale "Battle of Ranskor Av Kolos", which was filmed from a first draft after other things fell through -Fugitive of the Judoon originally called for Jo Martin to play an alien princess, but Chibs suggested she instead be what became The Fugitive Doctor -Chibnall has an idea of where Jo Martin fits in the timeline, but isn't going to say, preferring to keep the mystery. He just says she occurs in a 'gap' -The Timeless Children aren't necessarily tied to the Morbius Doctors, that was intended as a 'cheeky' inclusion to further the mystery. -Says the Timeless Child only exists to create new mysteries for the series, and that he has no real endgame for it, and doesn't know where The Doctor comes from -Timeless Child storyline was inspired largely by Chibnall's own personal life...he's an adopted child -Says anyone can retcon/revisit the Timeless Child if they choose to.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Apr 29, 2022 17:22:42 GMT -5
So what he basically saying is that he came up with the Fugitive Doctor on a whim, came up with this Timeless Child to explain it with no real payoff for it in mind and then tosses off to other writers who will most likely ignore it because it just creates a big mess.
Wonderful.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,189
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Apr 29, 2022 17:26:37 GMT -5
Doctor Who Magazine had a big tell all interview with Chibnall this month -He acknowledges his weakest script was the series 11 finale "Battle of Ranskor Av Kolos", which was filmed from a first draft after other things fell through -Fugitive of the Judoon originally called for Jo Martin to play an alien princess, but Chibs suggested she instead be what became The Fugitive Doctor -Chibnall has an idea of where Jo Martin fits in the timeline, but isn't going to say, preferring to keep the mystery. He just says she occurs in a 'gap' -The Timeless Children aren't necessarily tied to the Morbius Doctors, that was intended as a 'cheeky' inclusion to further the mystery. -Says the Timeless Child only exists to create new mysteries for the series, and that he has no real endgame for it, and doesn't know where The Doctor comes from -Timeless Child storyline was inspired largely by Chibnall's own personal life...he's an adopted child -Says anyone can retcon/revisit the Timeless Child if they choose to. Least Moffat cleaned up his messes (for the most part) before he left. Didn't leave the silence stuff and the cracks for someone else to figure out.
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Post by Zombie Mod is not a ghoul. on Apr 29, 2022 17:33:30 GMT -5
So what he basically saying is that he came up with the Fugitive Doctor on a whim, came up with this Timeless Child to explain it with no real payoff for it in mind and then tosses off to other writers who will most likely ignore it because it just creates a big mess. Wonderful. which has pretty much been the criticism of his time as show runner, just "I want to make my mark on the show... history, plot, overarching story, future of the show be damned" his writing/direction style has driven a lot of viewers away.
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Post by G✇JI☈A on Apr 29, 2022 18:08:54 GMT -5
I know he was joking but Stephen Colbert tweeted a message of support to James Corden regarding leaving the Late Late Show and it ended with Good Luck being the new Doctor Who..
All I can say is… Don’t put that evil on me Colbert!
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 29, 2022 18:27:16 GMT -5
So Chibnall was doing what he did without any sort of plan, colour me shocked. His run on the show will be remembered as an act of vandalism akin to carving a phallus into a park bench just to leave a marl and poor Jodie is up there with McGann on the list of Doctors who deserved better.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 30, 2022 4:31:58 GMT -5
it's funny me and my friend just had a long conversation about a week ago about creators wanting to leave their marks on things and usually at the expense of what they are writing.
Granted we were talking about comic books and people wanting to rehash like the main villains because they want to tell the essential story! despite most of the Essential stories for the characters are already out there... and the fact that most of the essential stories didn't get written from the perspective of THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ESSENTIAL STORY!
This is probably the best example of it... I will completely change the entire understanding of what we know ... with no regards to past history or any future writing hurdles that might arise from this... also I won't ACTUALLY give an answer... I'll just leave a mess for someone else to clean up.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 30, 2022 4:34:59 GMT -5
Doctor Who Magazine had a big tell all interview with Chibnall this month -He acknowledges his weakest script was the series 11 finale "Battle of Ranskor Av Kolos", which was filmed from a first draft after other things fell through -Fugitive of the Judoon originally called for Jo Martin to play an alien princess, but Chibs suggested she instead be what became The Fugitive Doctor -Chibnall has an idea of where Jo Martin fits in the timeline, but isn't going to say, preferring to keep the mystery. He just says she occurs in a 'gap' -The Timeless Children aren't necessarily tied to the Morbius Doctors, that was intended as a 'cheeky' inclusion to further the mystery. -Says the Timeless Child only exists to create new mysteries for the series, and that he has no real endgame for it, and doesn't know where The Doctor comes from -Timeless Child storyline was inspired largely by Chibnall's own personal life...he's an adopted child -Says anyone can retcon/revisit the Timeless Child if they choose to. Least Moffat cleaned up his messes (for the most part) before he left. Didn't leave the silence stuff and the cracks for someone else to figure out. I never got the feeling that Moffat didn't have some sort of end game in mind even on his more moon logic Doctor stories... Chibnall literally felt at multiple times he was throwing shit against the wall to see if anything stuck... and literally the end of Flux with the Doctor dropping the watch into the TARDIS was no one will figure out what the hell any of this was actually about... not to mention that Flux fundamentally rearranges the entire Doctor Who universe... but... likely will also just be handwaved that no the rest of the planets are back now for no reason.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 30, 2022 5:46:05 GMT -5
I don't even mind a creator trying to leave a mark as long as that mark is interesting and new, but little of what Chibnall did was either. 'Everything about the doctors past is a lie!' 'Gallifrey has been destroyed!' 'The master is back for revenge!' 'The universe is destroyed then undone! It's all just a retread done worse by someone playing Doctor Who madlibs.
The only good thing about his run were the doctor and her companions, but that was the cast polishing turds as best they can.
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Post by BorneAgain on Apr 30, 2022 5:59:57 GMT -5
That interview really sums up Chibnall in a lot of ways, fascinating ideas rooted in good intentions but with very dubious execution and seemingly no interest in long term thinking with them.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 5, 2022 0:43:33 GMT -5
Finally watched the Sea Devils... I did not enjoy it. That's really all there is to say I guess >_> Jodi was fine as usual. I thought the writing was kinda sloppy at points and I kinda wonder if they've just given up at this point Yaz is... there... I guess. I feel like they've been trying to build her character by everyone talking about how amazing she is... rather than... actually writing her as having much of a character? I don't mind the Yaz/Doctor relationship in theory (outside of generally being tired of Companion/Doctor romance as a whole). But again it kinda fails the same way almost all of Chibnall's series does... the writing has been really flat
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,075
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 5, 2022 3:24:12 GMT -5
Finally watched the Sea Devils... I did not enjoy it. That's really all there is to say I guess >_> Jodi was fine as usual. I thought the writing was kinda sloppy at points and I kinda wonder if they've just given up at this point Yaz is... there... I guess. I feel like they've been trying to build her character by everyone talking about how amazing she is... rather than... actually writing her as having much of a character? I don't mind the Yaz/Doctor relationship in theory (outside of generally being tired of Companion/Doctor romance as a whole). But again it kinda fails the same way almost all of Chibnall's series does... the writing has been really flat I wouldn't even mind as much if The Doctor just said she was interested but no, adding the stuff about Yaz being the most amazing person she's ever known... they know we've seen all the other companions right? People who have made insane sacrifices, saved the day, the universe, on multiple occasions? You don't have to paint someone as this amazing, special person. People, even The Doctor can just like, normal people, it goes into shilling the character too much.
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Post by Ryushinku on May 5, 2022 4:25:25 GMT -5
It does kinda smack of covering your ass, when you haven't put in the yard work on the writing side.
I'm reminded of The Timeless Children (episode) again, where Graham tells Yaz something similar about her being the most wonderful person he knows.
It was pretty much the first conversation Graham had with Yaz in two bloody series. And, based on not really much. Based on what Yaz had done to date, those qualifications would've applied just as much to Ryan, and it's goddamn hilarious picturing anyone saying Ryan was the most wonderful person around.
I could blather on but I think we're pretty much on the same page with all this. The single biggest detriment above anything else to the whole Jodie era has been the quality of the writing, and it's such a huge shame.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,075
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 5, 2022 4:36:38 GMT -5
It does kinda smack of covering your ass, when you haven't put in the yard work on the writing side. I'm reminded of The Timeless Children (episode) again, where Graham tells Yaz something similar about her being the most wonderful person he knows. It was pretty much the first conversation Graham had with Yaz in two bloody series. And, based on not really much. Based on what Yaz had done to date, those qualifications would've applied just as much to Ryan, and it's goddamn hilarious picturing anyone saying Ryan was the most wonderful person around. I could blather on but I think we're pretty much on the same page with all this. The single biggest detriment above anything else to the whole Jodie era has been the quality of the writing, and it's such a huge shame. There COULD have been a slight way around this. A massive push on EU stuff for this area, books, comics, get Big Finish in. If there was publicity and a lot of stories out there, it wouldn't be perfect but you'd have a little bit of a better claim for that. But, probably due to the nature of the BBC there's just the series which has had decent ideas and performances, but damn the scripts and execution have missed pretty much every target they had.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 5, 2022 5:04:13 GMT -5
Finally watched the Sea Devils... I did not enjoy it. That's really all there is to say I guess >_> Jodi was fine as usual. I thought the writing was kinda sloppy at points and I kinda wonder if they've just given up at this point Yaz is... there... I guess. I feel like they've been trying to build her character by everyone talking about how amazing she is... rather than... actually writing her as having much of a character? I don't mind the Yaz/Doctor relationship in theory (outside of generally being tired of Companion/Doctor romance as a whole). But again it kinda fails the same way almost all of Chibnall's series does... the writing has been really flat I wouldn't even mind as much if The Doctor just said she was interested but no, adding the stuff about Yaz being the most amazing person she's ever known... they know we've seen all the other companions right? People who have made insane sacrifices, saved the day, the universe, on multiple occasions? You don't have to paint someone as this amazing, special person. People, even The Doctor can just like, normal people, it goes into shilling the character too much. On top of that, I think the Doctor liking a normal person kinda fits their character better? and I mean I get talking up someone you like, in that way... but as stated The Doctor's not the only one that has stated how amazing Yaz is...
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Post by BorneAgain on May 5, 2022 5:57:06 GMT -5
A lot of this comes back to the characterization problem. So Yaz is so amazing, huH? Would be nice to actually see that ourselves rather than being told as such.
If nothing else, that'll be the real benefit to RTD coming back. Davies defined the companions pretty consistently, and even if cases where the character wasn't always likable (like Rose was to me) you always had a sense of who they were. Partners in Crime did more to characterize Donna with just that one episode than three series have for Yaz.
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