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Post by Terry McConkey on Dec 13, 2020 12:08:04 GMT -5
In Vince’s defense he was probably too nervous to do anything with him. I’d be to if the threat of sending an S.O.S to the World was constantly looming over my head. I’m sure Sting also threatened to get The Police involved if Vince bothered him too much. Vince: Every Breath I Took, I could not stop thinking about Roxanne.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Dec 13, 2020 12:22:47 GMT -5
Sting needed to be a guy who showed up sporadically when things were so unjust somebody had to step in and be the guy who tried to right the wrongs. They could have lived off that for years. Agreed. They started out pretty strong with him, knocking down the Authority and saying it wasn’t about WWE vs. WCW. Of course we know the path that all went. On another note... I’ll be honest, I didn’t dislike the HHH match. Sure, the NWO stuff didn’t fit with storyline continuity, but I thought it was a fun, overbooked nostalgia trip. I wasn’t hearing the commentary during the match, though, and from what you guys have said, that probably made the match seem a whole lot better. And I do agree Sting should have won. The problem wasn’t so much about Sting, but rather WWE bringing the Authority back to render Stinger showing up to help topple them all but useless.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 13, 2020 15:33:13 GMT -5
To a large extent he got lucky, the revisionist history will never admit it though. The WWWF wasn't as small scale as he likes to make out, but saying that makes his "rags to riches" story more impressive; in reality it was one of the largest and most lucrative territories in the US and wielded a lot of influence. Hogan already had crossover appeal and was gaining mainstream recognition, Gagne just dropped the ball and McMahon picked it up. MTV and NBC were available to him because he was the New York promoter, had he been promoting in Crockett or Watts territory he wouldn't have been able to do that; likewise, it's hard to imagine that other promoters wouldn't have done the same had they been promoting in New York. When it came to going national, he was fortunate that Southwest - whose highly-rated slot he took - had upset the USA Network and that Georgia's office had split allowing him to have their TBS slot. His hunches, like pushing the likes of Marc Mero and Mabel in the nineties, often fail spectacularly and his biggest stars got over organically. So basically, he's not a genius, he's someone who was presented with chances by virtue of timing, and who took them. He's had massive successes, and massive failures too. It isn't a slight by any means, it just means he's like the vast majority of successful businessmen.
You could compare him to Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas. The driving force and creative vision, but surrounded by people who helped to improve it and create a phenomenon. Then with age and the building of their own legend as "The creative genius" the listen to the help less and become insular in their vision to the detriment of their product. With Lucas there are also people that buy into the creative genius stuff and so stopped second guessing him. When he mad Star Wars he was just some relatively new Director with a few shorts and one popular movie like a year before. So people were willing to tell him "George this is f***ing stupid". Cut to making the Prequels and he is now "THE MAN THAT MADE STAR WARS" so people were less inclined to speak up and say "no one talks like this George".
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 13, 2020 15:41:13 GMT -5
You could compare him to Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas. The driving force and creative vision, but surrounded by people who helped to improve it and create a phenomenon. Then with age and the building of their own legend as "The creative genius" the listen to the help less and become insular in their vision to the detriment of their product. With Lucas there are also people that buy into the creative genius stuff and so stopped second guessing him. When he mad Star Wars he was just some relatively new Director with a few shorts and one popular movie like a year before. So people were willing to tell him "George this is f***ing stupid". Cut to making the Prequels and he is now "THE MAN THAT MADE STAR WARS" so people were less inclined to speak up and say "no one talks like this George". Exactly, you used to have guys like George Scott, Pat Patterson around to help with creative and booking. As much maligned as he is Vince Russo in the 90s, Chris Kreski. Now it's a group of interchangeable writers and yes men because he's Vince McMahon dammit!
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 13, 2020 15:48:36 GMT -5
With Lucas there are also people that buy into the creative genius stuff and so stopped second guessing him. When he mad Star Wars he was just some relatively new Director with a few shorts and one popular movie like a year before. So people were willing to tell him "George this is f***ing stupid". Cut to making the Prequels and he is now "THE MAN THAT MADE STAR WARS" so people were less inclined to speak up and say "no one talks like this George". Exactly, you used to have guys like George Scott, Pat Patterson around to help with creative and booking. As much maligned as he is Vince Russo in the 90s, Chris Kreski. Now it's a group of interchangeable writers and yes men because he's Vince McMahon dammit! Again most of the wrestlers don't mind hte writers and think the writers do come up with good ideas... the problem is the good ideas are all kiboshed by the guy at the top... either by not liking it at all or changing his mind at hte last second. NO ONE could write anything compelling or coherent like that.
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Post by eJm on Dec 13, 2020 15:50:27 GMT -5
Exactly, you used to have guys like George Scott, Pat Patterson around to help with creative and booking. As much maligned as he is Vince Russo in the 90s, Chris Kreski. Now it's a group of interchangeable writers and yes men because he's Vince McMahon dammit! Again most of the wrestlers don't mind hte writers and think the writers do come up with good ideas... the problem is the good ideas are all kiboshed by the guy at the top... either by not liking it at all or changing his mind at hte last second. NO ONE could write anything compelling or coherent like that. Further proven by the fact they’ve had an actual Emmy award winning writer on their staff and the only way for us to have known that was because she got heat for bringing her award to a show which...what? Oh, and she was fired this year too so...
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 13, 2020 16:32:37 GMT -5
Again most of the wrestlers don't mind hte writers and think the writers do come up with good ideas... the problem is the good ideas are all kiboshed by the guy at the top... either by not liking it at all or changing his mind at hte last second. NO ONE could write anything compelling or coherent like that. Further proven by the fact they’ve had actual Emmy award winning writers on their staff and the only way for us to have known that was because she got heat for bringing her award to a show which...what? Oh, and she was fired this year too so... was she the one that wrote Otis/Mandy? I know the writer behind that got canned... despite getting Heavy Machinery and Mandy super over... not to mention got Sonya and Dolph more heat than they've had in a while...
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Post by eJm on Dec 13, 2020 16:34:30 GMT -5
Further proven by the fact they’ve had actual Emmy award winning writers on their staff and the only way for us to have known that was because she got heat for bringing her award to a show which...what? Oh, and she was fired this year too so... was she the one that wrote Otis/Mandy? I know the writer behind that got canned... despite getting Heavy Machinery and Mandy super over... not to mention got Sonya and Dolph more heat than they've had in a while... Indeed she was.
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Post by Cyno on Dec 13, 2020 16:44:21 GMT -5
You could compare him to Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas. The driving force and creative vision, but surrounded by people who helped to improve it and create a phenomenon. Then with age and the building of their own legend as "The creative genius" the listen to the help less and become insular in their vision to the detriment of their product. With Lucas there are also people that buy into the creative genius stuff and so stopped second guessing him. When he mad Star Wars he was just some relatively new Director with a few shorts and one popular movie like a year before. So people were willing to tell him "George this is f***ing stupid". Cut to making the Prequels and he is now "THE MAN THAT MADE STAR WARS" so people were less inclined to speak up and say "no one talks like this George". Yep. Lucas didn't have people like Marcia Griffin or Harrison Ford around during the prequels to take him aside and say "George, this doesn't work." Though to Lucas' credit, he reached out to his friends like Steven Spielberg and Lawrence Kasdan to take significant roles in the creative development and direction of the prequels. But they turned him down saying it was his story to tell.
The worst thing that can happen to a creative mind or even a businessman like Vince McMahon is to start buying into their own hype. It's happened so many times and always to the detriment of the product.
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Post by "Magic" Mark Hurr on Dec 13, 2020 21:56:22 GMT -5
Vince ruins everything. People call him a genius but its far from the truth. Stone Cold and The Rock landed on his lap and saved his ass during the Monday Night Wars. Without their superstar charisma, he would've been shut down by 1998. The likes of Cena would've been much, much better character wise without him too. Yep, every bit of this is true. Vince is absolutely not the genius he's made out to be in some circles. Fact is, he's a guy who got extremely lucky multiple times. In my opinion, wrestling would have been better off without him. The fact that he didn't know how to use STING of all people proves all of that, in my eyes. That's like me winning $10,000,000 in the lottery and looking and my student loan debt, credit card bill, rent, my truck, my mom's bills, business plans that wouldn't even take a few thousand to start up, my friend's who are in tight spots, random people I could help out, and whatever ideas I had for my debut album and saying, "Yeah, I have no f***ing clue what to do with this "
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Dec 13, 2020 23:45:59 GMT -5
in two weeks on AEW, Sting has already come off as more charismatic than he did while in WWE. I am guessing, he is one of those guys who is more charismatic when everything is not being written for him, which also leads me to think. How many more wrestlers are like that? The answer to this will always be the original Talking Smack, which was completely unscripted, and had some of the best WWE promos on it in a long time In many peoples eyes, it was Miz's best promo ever against Daniel Bryan, we also had funny promos where wrestlers actually showed off personality, and maybe the best Baron Corbin there ever has been when he was simply allowed to go off on wrestlers and be a genuinely good heel. It's why it sucks to see what he's turned into since. And then Vince pulled Talking Smack. Why? Cause the wrestlers were getting over, and the promos weren't scripted. Can't have anyone thinking Vince's way isn't correct, these guys and girls can't shine WITHOUT him Not everything Vince has produced has been dumb luck, but the last 20 or so years have shown a lot of dumb luck was certainly involved.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 14, 2020 0:29:35 GMT -5
Vince was smart enough and cut throat enough to expand beyond his territory and take it national&had the foresight to see what a boon cable was gonna be. That's big and he deserves credit for that.
But let's also not act like he was taking some mom&pop organization and making it global either. He inherited/purchased a successful promotional organization that had been in his family for generations and was already successful in the largest media market in the world. He absolutely took it to new heights, but it's like that old analogy of being born on 3rd base and thinking you hit a home run--Vince might have not started at 3rd but at the very least he already had runners in scoring position.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 14, 2020 1:07:46 GMT -5
With Lucas there are also people that buy into the creative genius stuff and so stopped second guessing him. When he mad Star Wars he was just some relatively new Director with a few shorts and one popular movie like a year before. So people were willing to tell him "George this is f***ing stupid". Cut to making the Prequels and he is now "THE MAN THAT MADE STAR WARS" so people were less inclined to speak up and say "no one talks like this George". Exactly, you used to have guys like George Scott, Pat Patterson around to help with creative and booking. As much maligned as he is Vince Russo in the 90s, Chris Kreski. Now it's a group of interchangeable writers and yes men because he's Vince McMahon dammit! In an old old shoot DVD Cornette did talking about 1997, he painted a picture of the production meetings that's stuck with me for a very long time. Names coming up like his own, Jim Ross, Pat Patterson, and yeah sure guys like Russo and Dunn, but there were also people present in this tight creative inner circle who were not expendable. You couldn't fire and rehire a new Pat Patterson. Sometimes Vince had his mind on ideas, sometimes other people gave ideas that sucked, but it was a room full of people chosen to be the ones who talked these things through as a group of trusted voices. Now it's dozens of people, with an active de-emphasis on having people who are into wrestling, and nobody has the experience or backing to have any authority with their voices. Regardless of how good any of the writers might be, there's no purpose to them any longer because Vince has made sure that there's nobody who can tell him no. They're there to put the words onto the paper so Vince doesn't have to.
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Post by Rolent Tex on Dec 14, 2020 1:23:17 GMT -5
Exactly, you used to have guys like George Scott, Pat Patterson around to help with creative and booking. As much maligned as he is Vince Russo in the 90s, Chris Kreski. Now it's a group of interchangeable writers and yes men because he's Vince McMahon dammit! In an old old shoot DVD Cornette did talking about 1997, he painted a picture of the production meetings that's stuck with me for a very long time. Names coming up like his own, Jim Ross, Pat Patterson, and yeah sure guys like Russo and Dunn, but there were also people present in this tight creative inner circle who were not expendable. You couldn't fire and rehire a new Pat Patterson. Sometimes Vince had his mind on ideas, sometimes other people gave ideas that sucked, but it was a room full of people chosen to be the ones who talked these things through as a group of trusted voices. Now it's dozens of people, with an active de-emphasis on having people who are into wrestling, and nobody has the experience or backing to have any authority with their voices. Regardless of how good any of the writers might be, there's no purpose to them any longer because Vince has made sure that there's nobody who can tell him no. They're there to put the words onto the paper so Vince doesn't have to. Vince should hire me. I’ll fix that real damn quick. Just give me a spray bottle and I’ll treat him like a bad pet. No...bad Vince! I’ll be fired quicker than Bischoff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2020 1:32:48 GMT -5
Vince was smart enough and cut throat enough to expand beyond his territory and take it national&had the foresight to see what a boon cable was gonna be. That's big and he deserves credit for that. But let's also not act like he was taking some mom&pop organization and making it global either. He inherited/purchased a successful promotional organization that had been in his family for generations and was already successful in the largest media market in the world. He absolutely took it to new heights, but it's like that old analogy of being born on 3rd base and thinking you hit a home run--Vince might have not started at 3rd but at the very least he already had runners in scoring position. Vince was at least born on 2nd base, and had some of the greatest minds ever (like Pat Patterson) to help him. His best contributions were recognizing how cable was going to kill the territories anyway, and realizing that Gagne had a superstar in Hogan he wasn't using the right way.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 15, 2020 1:11:08 GMT -5
Did they ever even have a segment where someone else came out dressed as Sting? I feel like that's basically a necessity if you're going to use him.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Dec 15, 2020 1:16:31 GMT -5
Did they ever even have a segment where someone else came out dressed as Sting? I feel like that's basically a necessity if you're going to use him. Yeah. I don’t know the specific segment, but it was apparently Heath Slater that time.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 15, 2020 1:21:48 GMT -5
Did they ever even have a segment where someone else came out dressed as Sting? I feel like that's basically a necessity if you're going to use him. Yeah. I don’t know the specific segment, but it was apparently Heath Slater that time. Fair enough but I would have loved for Seth to put the paint on and do an impression of him. Would have been hilarious even if it sucked.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Dec 15, 2020 1:26:23 GMT -5
Yeah. I don’t know the specific segment, but it was apparently Heath Slater that time. Fair enough but I would have loved for Seth to put the paint on and do an impression of him. Would have been hilarious even if it sucked. To be fair to Slater, he’s been milking it for all he can in the year since he got cut from WWE. He showed up as Sting (“STANG”) on one of the Gallows/Anderson shows.
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Post by SAJ Forth on Dec 19, 2020 23:05:25 GMT -5
Literally, the one WrestleMania match they should've gone with was with Undertaker, instead, WWE had Triple-H get to have an Invasion fantasy-camp because he missed out.
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