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Post by mistery on Dec 15, 2020 10:28:34 GMT -5
In terms of devils advocate right now in regards to Ember/Asuka, yeah Ember maybe should have beat her at the time (but in hindsight, it probably would have backfired considering Ember's reign was on the weaker end). But she's back down in NXT again, and suffering from the same exact problems that plagued her the first time. This Ember's Law stuff is god awful. Not like Toni is in a better position either.
Hell, you could say the NXT Women's Title lost a bit of shine ever since Asuka went up, and is only now starting to feel more important again with Io holding it.
- Ember's reign was short and forgettable. Doesn't help she was the least charismatic or interesting woman in the fatal four way where she won the title.
- Shayna's first reign severely harmed the division.
- Kairi got the short end of the stick (she should have never lost it back to Shayna).
- Shayna's second reign was also way too long, severely harmed the division, and was one of the worst reigns in the history of NXT.
- Rhea's reign probably would have went somewhere if Charlotte didn't exist, although people were already clamouring for Rhea to lose the title like a few weeks after she actually won it.
- Charlotte's reign was entirely unnecessary and brought in some of the lowest ratings in NXT history.
- Io's reign is doing really well right now in terms of getting others over (even in defeat), and viewership wise as well since her stuff always does very well with viewers (both total and demo)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 15, 2020 10:34:19 GMT -5
Ember should have beaten her, that's really the end all be all
Y'all basing shit purely off hindsight in what Ember is now and what she was.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 15, 2020 10:38:50 GMT -5
That’s hindsight. At that time, Ember Moon was still in developmental and the only person Asuka had to cheat against TWICE to actually beat her. The story was Ember had Asuka number and they didn’t pull the trigger. Instead she won the title after Asuka left and got a hug And even then, the character thing was an issue since he started and even with that she was over even if Asuka was more over. You either bite the bullet and do it or make your women’s division look like goobers for the second time in a couple of years. Correct. Ember Moon was OVER and they knew it. It is why she is the only person Asuka cheated to beat until her eventual heel turn on the main roster. Until Charlotte beat Asuka, no one even came close to beating her besides Ember By not putting the title on Ember you damned the division. Ember became champ but she wasn't champ if that makes sense. She didn't beat the best, the best just up and left and only came to give her a hug as passing the torch. The heat should have had was gone and her and Shayna did good work especially since Shayna was still green around that time but no one got the rub they should have gotten due to Asuka not losing
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Post by eJm on Dec 15, 2020 10:46:37 GMT -5
And even then, the character thing was an issue since he started and even with that she was over even if Asuka was more over. You either bite the bullet and do it or make your women’s division look like goobers for the second time in a couple of years. Correct. Ember Moon was OVER and they knew it. It is why she is the only person Asuka cheated to beat until her eventual heel turn on the main roster. Until Charlotte beat Asuka, no one even came close to beating her besides Ember By not putting the title on Ember you damned the division. Ember became champ but she wasn't champ if that makes sense. She didn't beat the best, the best just up and left and only came to give her a hug as passing the torch. The heat should have had was gone and her and Shayna did good work especially since Shayna was still green around that time but no one got the rub they should have gotten due to Asuka not losing Pretty much, yeah. We can talk about what the reign was like in hindsight and how Enber’s character was like (another failing of development but that’s a drum I’ve beaten and nothing to do with Ember’s ability or overness) and how Shayna did until the cows come home. Also didn’t help the main roster barely referenced the Moon/Asuka rivalry so when Moon called up, she was just a gnat in comparison since, again, history doesn’t pat you on the shoulder for coming close to winning. If Finn Balor was stripped of the title right now and called back up, giving a fist bump to, say, Pete Dunne on the way and then Dunne won the title, who’d benefit? Dunne didn’t beat Balor. People would be happy, sure, but then you’d just leave a question unanswered for the rest of time and you know the main roster won’t address it because it can barely keep its own ducks in a row.
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Post by mistery on Dec 15, 2020 10:48:30 GMT -5
I will also remind everyone that it wasn't a Triple H call to have Asuka leave NXT undefeated either. It was a call from Vince.
Obviously the rub went to the wrong person (Charlotte), but if they were hellbent on putting the Smackdown Women's Title on Carmella afterwards, it would have ended poorly either way. So while Ember probably would have been the best person to end the streak, I don't think she would have benefitted from it either (at least long term) considering her main roster career peaked like three weeks in.
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Post by eJm on Dec 15, 2020 10:54:10 GMT -5
I will also remind everyone that it wasn't a Triple H call to have Asuka leave NXT undefeated either. It was a call from Vince. In that case, they’re both idiots and a big reason why NXT is where it is in whether it’s developmental, a third brand, neither or both.
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Post by mistery on Dec 15, 2020 10:56:33 GMT -5
I will also remind everyone that it wasn't a Triple H call to have Asuka leave NXT undefeated either. It was a call from Vince. In that case, they’re both idiots and a big reason why NXT is where it is in whether it’s developmental, a third brand, neither or both. I dunno how Triple H is at fault considering he had planned on Ember going over at the time. But Vince wanted the streak intact. And I'll be brutally honest with you. Asuka having the undefeated streak on the main roster very likely saved her career. Because if she went up and wasn't undefeated at the time, she would probably be at the same level Shinsuke is right now, if not lower. WWE would have had zero incentive to protect her. And by time her streak was actually broken, people were still pissed off if she wasn't presented as a dominating force (hell, they still are to this day).
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Post by eJm on Dec 15, 2020 14:37:18 GMT -5
In that case, they’re both idiots and a big reason why NXT is where it is in whether it’s developmental, a third brand, neither or both. I dunno how Triple H is at fault considering he had planned on Ember going over at the time. But Vince wanted the streak intact. And I'll be brutally honest with you. Asuka having the undefeated streak on the main roster very likely saved her career. Because if she went up and wasn't undefeated at the time, she would probably be at the same level Shinsuke is right now, if not lower. WWE would have had zero incentive to protect her. And by time her streak was actually broken, people were still pissed off if she wasn't presented as a dominating force (hell, they still are to this day). If the streak was the only thing that kept her from having a stable main roster career, that says more about them then it does about her to be quite frank.
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Post by mistery on Dec 15, 2020 15:58:28 GMT -5
I dunno how Triple H is at fault considering he had planned on Ember going over at the time. But Vince wanted the streak intact. And I'll be brutally honest with you. Asuka having the undefeated streak on the main roster very likely saved her career. Because if she went up and wasn't undefeated at the time, she would probably be at the same level Shinsuke is right now, if not lower. WWE would have had zero incentive to protect her. And by time her streak was actually broken, people were still pissed off if she wasn't presented as a dominating force (hell, they still are to this day). If the streak was the only thing that kept her from having a stable main roster career, that says more about them then it does about her to be quite frank. It's Vince. Look at Kairi. Easily had the potential to be one of the biggest babyfaces among the women, and was portrayed as the biggest babyface in the NXT Women's Division until she was called up. Instead she got thrown into a tag team with Asuka. Not to mention you can probably count the number of singles matches she has had on the main roster (TV wise) with both hands. I have zero doubt if Asuka didn't have the streak, she would never have found the success she had on the main roster. But instead because of her streak, she found a lot more success than she normally would, because Vince wasn't going to blow a streak that had already surpassed Goldberg on a random episode of RAW or a B-level PPV.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Dec 15, 2020 16:04:36 GMT -5
Not watching but I assume the plan is to leave the belt on Asuka for Becky to beat at Mania.
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Post by Kalmia on Dec 15, 2020 16:22:45 GMT -5
RAW's women's division is a mess right now. There isn't a single wrestler that I could buy beating Asuka because WWE hasn't built anyone up as a legit contender. Shayna could do it, but she's in a terrible tag team and has been booked like a loser. Asuka needs challengers—she's entertaining, but she can't wrestle herself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 17:03:06 GMT -5
Sounds like the main roster needs to do better with their women’s division.
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Post by Hypnosis on Dec 15, 2020 17:12:16 GMT -5
Not watching but I assume the plan is to leave the belt on Asuka for Becky to beat at Mania. That'll be 0-4 for Asuka at this PPV. (She should have beaten Charlotte at Mania two years ago after the 2018 Women's Rumble win. Charlotte didn't need to end the streak.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2020 17:15:55 GMT -5
I think the only Raw Women's Title reign I've actually enjoyed in the last several years was Ronda's and even that started getting shitty at the end when they went the lame worked shoot route with her.
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Post by Hypnosis on Dec 15, 2020 17:30:58 GMT -5
I think the only Raw Women's Title reign I've actually enjoyed in the last several years was Ronda's and even that started getting shitty at the end when they went the lame worked shoot route with her. "Damn The Man, and screw the Woo!"
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Post by mistery on Dec 15, 2020 17:33:09 GMT -5
Not watching but I assume the plan is to leave the belt on Asuka for Becky to beat at Mania. That'll be 0-4 for Asuka at this PPV. (She should have beaten Charlotte at Mania two years ago after the 2018 Women's Rumble win. Charlotte didn't need to end the streak.) This is a controversial take from me, but if they do Charlotte/Asuka at Wrestlemania again this year, Asuka absolutely needs and should go over. Charlotte is pretty much a set woman. The only thing that Asuka is missing is a win at the event itself. In other news, I've started to see people blaming Asuka for the ratings dropping when its more like no one actually cares about this Lana stuff, and both Nia and Shayna are whatever the opposite of draws are. The RAW Women's Division is in desperate need of a complete overhaul from top to bottom. Putting Charlotte back into the mix won't solve anything. Likewise, punishing Asuka will just make the situation worse. They need multiple NXT callups desperately, and to stop putting the focus on the less talented women like Lana, Mandy, and Dana. I also don't think Ronda coming back would help matters either. Her reign was pretty awful in that she was never in any danger of losing until Becky got hot, and even then the way she lost was a slap to the face of every fan there.
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Post by theironyuppie on Dec 15, 2020 22:39:19 GMT -5
That'll be 0-4 for Asuka at this PPV. (She should have beaten Charlotte at Mania two years ago after the 2018 Women's Rumble win. Charlotte didn't need to end the streak.) This is a controversial take from me, but if they do Charlotte/Asuka at Wrestlemania again this year, Asuka absolutely needs and should go over. Charlotte is pretty much a set woman. The only thing that Asuka is missing is a win at the event itself. In other news, I've started to see people blaming Asuka for the ratings dropping when its more like no one actually cares about this Lana stuff, and both Nia and Shayna are whatever the opposite of draws are. The RAW Women's Division is in desperate need of a complete overhaul from top to bottom. Putting Charlotte back into the mix won't solve anything. Likewise, punishing Asuka will just make the situation worse. They need multiple NXT callups desperately, and to stop putting the focus on the less talented women like Lana, Mandy, and Dana. I also don't think Ronda coming back would help matters either. Her reign was pretty awful in that she was never in any danger of losing until Becky got hot, and even then the way she lost was a slap to the face of every fan there.
I think the broader issue is the lack of time they're getting. While even after Charlotte left (one of her last episodes before her time off had an opening 10-minute tag match and then a 30-minute main event with Asuka) they were still getting pretty consistent time with the heavy usage of Bayley./Sasha in their feud with Asuka/Kairi, after their appearances ended, there's just been little time given to the division in general.
I also think parts of the Ronda reign definitely worked even if I wasn't a fan of the quasi-shoot stuff either. The story after MITB to Summerslam with Alexa being a chickenshit heel worked quite well, and even had additional benefits with the MITB ending getting fans desperate for a major Becky win. (And while the Raw parts weren't anything special, her Evolution match with Nikki was pretty good too.) As for the WM 35 ending, the frustrating thing about it for me is that it could have worked and made thematic sense, with Becky taking advantage of Ronda's inexperience to beat her signature move with a flash pin. That works on paper, it just wasn't executed right and a poor choice of camera angle made it even worse.
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