The objectification of women in the wrestling world.

[agent817]

I know we have had threads like this on the WWE board in the past, with one guy talking about a male friend and his heavy criticism towards women's wrestling and with the way it has been for a while now. I know that from the mid-2010s to now, women's wrestling has come a long way in WWE. For all of the issues that TNA had, they at least didn't do so badly with their Knockouts division in the late-2000s onward. I know people criticize when WWE had the likes of Kelly Kelly, Eve Torres, etc. in their women's roster from the late-2000s to early-2010s, but the one thing I could give some of those women is that some of them were at least trying. I mean, yes, it started getting better when AJ Lee joined and stuff, and then we had the likes of Paige, and then the Women's Revolution became a thing.

But here is what I really wanted to talk about. So earlier tonight, I came across a bra & panties match between Trish Stratus and Stacy Keibler from 2001 on YouTube. What cracked me up the most was the comments from some guys on there who are so nostalgic for the days of bra & panties matches or bikini contests on Raw or Smackdown, saying that they missed it when women were objectified, or, and I quote because this made me laugh hard, "when women's wrestling mattered." So do you know any guys who really long for the days of the late-1990s to mid-2000s when the women were just eye candy? If anything, I could imagine those types enjoying stuff like WEW, which was terrible, by the way (if they do enjoy it, more power to them, but somehow there have been some WEW stuff that I've enjoyed for the wrong reasons, like in a train-wreck sort of way). I mean, don't get me wrong, I like looking at scantily-clad women just as much as the next guy, but it's funny to see people with rose-colored glasses and acting as if anything from the past as better. I mean I can tell you that there were moments from the Attitude Era that don't hold up now.

What's funny about those types is that you even have attractive women on the WWE, Impact, and AEW rosters who actually, you know, wrestle. Also, someone made an argument about how women even go with being objectified, like having Only Fans accounts and stuff. Okay, I can understand that, especially with Instagram models posting pictures of themselves in bikinis and/or lingerie, but on the subject of wrestling, I don't really miss those days when women were sex objects. I know Sunny was a draw, but she was a valet and had a personality (on-screen, I mean, because I don't respect Tammy Sytch as a person).

So what do you think of this? Do you know people who long for the days of women stripping on live TV or taking part in pointless swimsuit competitions?

[Deleted]

The Only Fans thing is a stupid argument. That's a case of people choosing for themselves to present their bodies to whatever extent they feel comfortable with. Bra and panties matches and the like are the people signing their paychecks forcing them to do it.

[ariestheram]

I can't say I long for those days, and I do not want them to come back, but 17-22 year old me did enjoy watching the bra and panties/ lingerie matches at the time.

[Mozenrath]

Frankly, if the bra and panties match stuff was such a good thing, someone would try to bring it back to explore that niche, but it hasn't really been the case. It's not like Priscilla Kelly or plenty of others haven't made use of sexuality, but they tend to do so with a lot more agency and not to the detriment of their wrestling.

I don't think it's come back because it just hasn't got a lot of merit or potential.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Don’t miss the bra and panties/mud wrestling stuff at all, personally.

My favorite divas were people like Lita and Trish because they kicked ass in the ring. The way they looked didn’t hurt, I was a teenage boy after all, but I didn’t tune in to Raw to be titillated, I was there for the action and wild characters. I could go online and find whatever, I didn’t need it in my fighting show.

I was also a fan of Bull Nakano and Madusa/Alundra Blayze at their peaks, that’s what the best women’s wrestling was to me at the time.

[EvenBaldobombHasAJob]

I'd tell these guys, "sir, Pornhub is free, why do you need this in wrestling?"

[Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite]

If you were in a certain age range at the time that was happening I can't be mad about people feeling nostalgic for those moments

I'd be lying if I said 15-22 year old me didn't enjoy the ladies of the attitude era and slightly afterwards although if the Women involved were doing it against their will then that's effed up.

At this point I can't see WWE bringing this sort of thing back and that seems counter to what AEW set out to be, BUT if some other WEW like company sprang up with Ladies who actually LIKE taking their clothes off, I would not be mad.

[Mozenrath]

I think that one of the most relevant things I could point to would be WWE a couple of years ago, where we got to see the completely wrong and more prudent uses of sex appeal in a single week.

One episode of Raw, Alexa Bliss is just topless for no particular reason and is walked in on by some random staff member in a bit that was just really awkward and clearly designed to get youtube views. It had zero relevance to any storylines and no lasting impact, it was just A Thing That Happened. Gratuitous.

That same week, on Smackdown, an ongoing storyline where Mandy tries to seduce Jimmy Uso to play mind games culminates in him meeting up with her for some kind of tryst, only it's revealed that Jey and Jimmy pulled a switcharoo and Naomi confronts Mandy. Mandy is in bra and panties for the whole segment, but, it was a situation where her character being in lingerie actually made sense and was relevant to the segment, actually adding to the storyline. While it could obviously be argued that it wasn't necessary, it wasn't completely out of nowhere. That helped it feel infinitely less trashy than the Bliss segment had.

It still isn't something I ever think needs to return as a common fixture for wrestling, but if it's used when appropriate and with willing participants who don't feel coerced out of worry they'll get fired or lose their spot, it doesn't bother me that much. I don't expect most places to use it when it is rational, though.

[Deleted]

People who “long for those days” again just need to go to a strip club and they’ll get the same thing, minus bad running of the ropes and blown spots by half trained models.

[Fade is a CodyCryBaby]

Feb 2, 2021 9:33:04 GMT -5 @adnonlkc said:

People who “long for those days” again just need to go to a strip club and they’ll get the same thing, minus bad running of the ropes and blown spots by half trained models.

You clearly haven’t been frequenting the right strip clubs.

[cassonova]

Rather than have a well thought out post, I'd rather add quasi-levity.

Divas era wrestling suffers from what I call the Hooters paradox. The wrestling wasn't good enough to watch for wrestling nor was there enough nudity/titillation to watch for that reason. Thereby creating a blank spot to go get snacks or use the restroom.

[Fade is a CodyCryBaby]

Feb 2, 2021 10:15:10 GMT -5 cassonova said:

Rather than have a well thought out post, I'd rather add quasi-levity.

Divas era wrestling suffers from what I call the Hooters paradox. The wrestling wasn't good enough to watch for wrestling nor was there enough nudity/titillation to watch for that reason. Thereby creating a blank spot to go get snacks or use the restroom.

This is the kind of analytic discussion we need.

It is kind of impressive that, despite the former status quo of women’s wrestling, quite a few broke out as legitimate stars. It was certainly the uphill climb in its own way.

[Natural Born Farmer]

Nah, that stuff was really embarrassing even by the standards of the time.

It's not like you can't find about a million provocative pictures of most active female wrestlers either, only difference is that they either took the photos themselves or did it as part of a shoot rather than some creepy, pseudo-bdsm thing they had to do on TV to keep their job.

Situation today is exponentially better all around.

[HMARK Center]

In 1998, at the height of things like Sable wearing the handprint "bikini" and whatnot, I was 13 years old, so that nervous, awkward, just-now-getting-hit-with-all-kinds-of-hormones part of my past was when I found anything to like in segments like that. By the time I was 14 I was pretty much over it, and even started to kind of resent it for going full-on lowest common denominator, which is saying something for pro wrestling in the 90s.

There's nothing wrong with sexuality in wrestling or storytelling, in general, and there's nothing wrong with titillation in the right context and when the people involved have agency in what they present to their audience, but there's something wrong when you're just running "see these women in their underwear, and honestly nothing else about them really matters to us" as a way to draw ratings. We've all found people in pro wrestling to be very attractive over the years, and that's fine, but again there are reasons why "durr hurr, boobs" is something I stopped being interested in as part of a pro wrestling show once I got into 8th grade.

[Cyno]

I always found the bra and panties matches and the like supremely awkward. And I was a horndog teenager at that point of time so that's saying something.

And yeah, let's not confuse women wrestlers taking their own initiative with things like OnlyFans with them being pressured into objectification by male promoters.

[Derk!]

Not gonna lie, I loved Sable back when I was a young teenager, especially that one Raw magazine with a bloody Vader on the cover.

That said, I am glad women's wrestling went from a being a piss break to legit maineventing the biggest show of the year.

[The Ichi]

They made me uncomfortable even back then because there was always that lingering feeling that some are doing it because they wanna keep their jobs. Years later that fear turned out justified with recent news.

[Deleted]

Even as a teenage boy without internet I wasn't into it. Even back then, you could watch soft core porn on Cinemax, and back then every teenage boy owned at least one porn magazine or video they got their hands on somehow.

I much prefer women's wrestling the way it is. That being said, I do think it is okay for some wrestlers to have a valet that is "eye candy" but those shouldn't be the same women that actually wrestle for titles and stuff.

[Deleted]

Like most, younger me thought that Victoria, Trish, Lita, Stacy Keibler, etc. were all absurdly attractive. I certainly didn't clutch my pearls and look away during the Bra and Panties era.

Time marches on, though. And, hopefully, we all grow as people in the end.

I think the presentation of women in general is ultimately better than it has been. I only watch AEW at this point, but while Hikaru Shida is in fact a very pretty woman, that's not why she's getting booked. I think Becky Lynch is gorgeous, but it was "The Man" character that was scrappy and an ass kicker that really got her over.

Basically, if it's the talent's prerogative to use their looks to their advantage, great. Otherwise, let them be wrestlers first and foremost.

[agent817]

One thing that I just remembered was that in 2007, Maryse did the same thing that Sunny did more than a decade prior, and that was welcome the viewers to the show while looking all sexy and seductive. For example, Sunny would be at a beach in a bikini or in a bathtub welcoming the viewers to Raw. Maryse did that by wearing sexy lingerie in a bedroom or lying in a hot-tub acting all seductive. What's funny about the deal with Sunny was that was at a time when the WWF had more of a PG-like product before the Attitude Era (It was in 1996 when that happened), whereas with Maryse, it was when they started going PG. By the way, Maryse welcomed the viewers to Smackdown during that time.