Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 16, 2021 14:20:31 GMT -5
Kay supposedly being let go “because she had a ceiling” is only going to feed into this idea that the only people worth a shit are those with the potential to be main eventers. Like how do you even structure a proper roster with that mindset? This is how you end up with someone like Ricochet as borderline enhancement talent. You NEED Successful Midcard and Undercard talent for a company to be sustainable. You simply do. A Ceiling being used as a means of firing someone, if that's the true reason Kay was fired, is insane. I don't look at the likes of Peter Avalon, Ryan Nemeth, Zicky Dice, Leva Bates, or Johnny Swinger in other companies and think to myself "Man, a shame they have a ceiling and will never be world champion, I guess they need to be fired". They're GOOD in their roles! Who cares if they have a ceiling when that ceiling is being good, and helping get other talents over? While ALSO being entertaining themselves and not being total jobbers?? This is why so many talents fail in WWE, because they only want stars, they only want main event level talent, while simultaniously, constantly self sabotaging those potential main event talents, and giving up on them when they don't work out with main roster booking, and they move on to the next toy I agree with the Tom Campbell video, they basically take a Juggler, and tell them to Skateboard. Fire them for being bad at Skateboarding, and are really frustrated they can't find a good juggler. It's really no secret why a large portion of the talent they let go, flourish outside their constrictive batshit viewpoints.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
Grimlock
Blanket burrito season is back, and I never left the blankets
Posts: 12,845
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Apr 16, 2021 14:25:33 GMT -5
I do think that if WWE at some point ends up crashing it's going to be relatively abrupt rather than a really drawn out process. They've kind of gotten too big to die a whimpering death at this point to where it'd probably be more of a catastrophic meltdown of a lot of revenue streams drying up at once while debt rapidly racks up. Agreed on this - it feels like what's going to happen is that the bottom is going to fall out on viewership at some point, and WWE scrambles to do damage control in time for their next big contract renewal with USA or Fox or Peacock or whoever, and by then they are in such a hole that they can't get out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 14:34:11 GMT -5
I do think that if WWE at some point ends up crashing it's going to be relatively abrupt rather than a really drawn out process. They've kind of gotten too big to die a whimpering death at this point to where it'd probably be more of a catastrophic meltdown of a lot of revenue streams drying up at once while debt rapidly racks up. Agreed on this - it feels like what's going to happen is that the bottom is going to fall out on viewership at some point, and WWE scrambles to do damage control in time for their next big contract renewal with USA or Fox or Peacock or whoever, and by then they are in such a hole that they can't get out. Yeah, I don’t think it will “die,” but I can totally envision a scenario where it’s relegated to FS1 or something if things don’t change quickly. Yes, it’s still the “most watched” wrestling product, but viewership is hemorrhaging and the product isn’t widely considered enjoyable, so there’s no reason to expect that that trend will magically reverse itself in the coming years. Not to be all “WWE v. AEW,” but the difference from a strict business perspective is that WWE has a 30 year head start and is trending downward, while AEW is an upstart company that is trending upward. That gap isn’t as wide as people make it out to be. That said, WWE has been adept throughout its existence at really bouncing back into its most enjoyable and profitable periods right after being pushed to the brink. I hope that’s what happens here.
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Post by eJm on Apr 16, 2021 14:48:57 GMT -5
I don't look at the likes of Peter Avalon, Ryan Nemeth, Zicky Dice, Leva Bates, or Johnny Swinger in other companies and think to myself "Man, a shame they have a ceiling and will never be world champion, I guess they need to be fired". They're GOOD in their roles! Who cares if they have a ceiling when that ceiling is being good, and helping get other talents over? While ALSO being entertaining themselves and not being total jobbers??. Swinger is actually a really great example because this is a dude who was barely a player in ECW and original run TNA, even less of a player in WWE, he comes back to Impact and reinvents himself completely as a throwback and even made a great match from a dude who was a WCW Saturday Night staple and hadn’t shown up in 20 or so years. It’s not the biggest shift and he damn sure isn’t going to get a world title run from it but who would need that if you’re making money regardless?
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 16, 2021 15:02:12 GMT -5
One of my favorite things Joe did in the WWE was in the insane WWE Comics. Basically it established HHH reaching out to Joe to take out Seth but the way it was set up it was on some mob shit. Also I think Joe is one of the few besides Brock to beat all the members of the Shield. Years ago, I had a weird thread idea to cast people from TNA and other promotions into HBO shows (e.g. younger AJ Styles as Jason Stackhouse on True Blood). Samoa Joe was the obvious choice to be Tony Soprano.
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Post by MrElijah on Apr 16, 2021 15:05:08 GMT -5
One of my favorite things Joe did in the WWE was in the insane WWE Comics. Basically it established HHH reaching out to Joe to take out Seth but the way it was set up it was on some mob shit. Also I think Joe is one of the few besides Brock to beat all the members of the Shield. Years ago, I had a weird thread idea to cast people from TNA and other promotions into HBO shows (e.g. younger AJ Styles as Jason Stackhouse on True Blood). Samoa Joe was the obvious choice to be Tony Soprano. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Samoa Joe as Wilson Fisk, The Kingpin of Crime would be so much money.
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bog
ALF
Posts: 1,006
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Post by bog on Apr 16, 2021 15:11:21 GMT -5
I feel like the Iiconics were the definition of "maximizing your minutes" like everyone says wrestlers should do. They took a what little gimmick they had and got it over, both with the casual fans who loved to boo them and the more hardcore fanbase that appreciated how willing they were to make themselves look like goofs.
Then they break them up to put them in different tag teams, and they both had to start over. Billy gains some traction with her silly resume gimmick, with an awesome showing in the rumble. Peyton ups her game in the ring and gets at least a few people talking with a promo on Talking Smack (or Raw Talk, I honestly forget).
Then they both get fired.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 16, 2021 15:18:20 GMT -5
One of my favorite things Joe did in the WWE was in the insane WWE Comics. Basically it established HHH reaching out to Joe to take out Seth but the way it was set up it was on some mob shit. Also I think Joe is one of the few besides Brock to beat all the members of the Shield. Years ago, I had a weird thread idea to cast people from TNA and other promotions into HBO shows (e.g. younger AJ Styles as Jason Stackhouse on True Blood). Samoa Joe was the obvious choice to be Tony Soprano. Woke up this morning... mama said knock you out
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 236,062
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 16, 2021 15:20:23 GMT -5
I just knew when The IIconics broke up they were screwed. There was never a planned Peyton singles push. I knew it when she pinned Bayley and the follow up she had was being paired with Lacey Evans, and not being the focal point of the tag team. Then when Lacey had to take a leave, she cut a passionate promo about how "Her potential haunts her" and then lost to Asuka and that was basically it.
Meanwhile Billie got over on her own merits, and because she wasn't supposed to, they just stopped using her and her storyline. Didn't help that when it came to said storyline, they were supposed to be framing it as Billie costing Riott Squad matches, when in reality... Riott Squad just came off as dicks half the time. Bringing her back for a Mania Match just to cut her right after is just baffling, and it's good to see a bunch of people backstage thought the same thing.
Hopefully wherever they end up, they end up back together because a company saw the value WWE dropped the ball on. Character wise, they can shine anywhere, and I hope they do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 15:27:44 GMT -5
I feel like the Iiconics were the definition of "maximizing your minutes" like everyone says wrestlers should do. They took a what little gimmick they had and got it over, both with the casual fans who loved to boo them and the more hardcore fanbase that appreciated how willing they were to make themselves look like goofs. Then they break them up to put them in different tag teams, and they both had to start over. Billy gains some traction with her silly resume gimmick, with an awesome showing in the rumble. Peyton ups her game in the ring and gets at least a few people talking with a promo on Talking Smack (or Raw Talk, I honestly forget). Then they both get fired. Billie said she just wants to make people laugh, so I'm sure she was fine with where she was at as a comedy act who rarely wins. God forbid we have a fun undercard, though.
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Post by koreycaskets on Apr 16, 2021 15:37:14 GMT -5
Fightful reported that while they can't say if it led to her release, Kevin Dunn didn't "get" Billie Kay and saw her as having a ceiling for how far she could go in the company. For the record, I am NOT Kevin Dunn. Fake news
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 236,062
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 16, 2021 15:49:14 GMT -5
The last time there was an NXT/Developmental release we got them all at once, that's kinda what I'm fearing here since there's been no news all day...
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 16, 2021 16:01:22 GMT -5
Kay supposedly being let go “because she had a ceiling” is only going to feed into this idea that the only people worth a shit are those with the potential to be main eventers. Like how do you even structure a proper roster with that mindset? This is how you end up with someone like Ricochet as borderline enhancement talent. Well I mean first of all "had a ceiling" obviously means "didn't give me boners" and so let's not take the euphemism too literally. But let's take a step back and look at how weirdly mark-ish this whole discussion is. The WWE has worked very very hard to keep alive this idea that status on the card (and thus pay) is hierarchical and earned. In other words: their orientation towards their fictional stories completely reflects the competition stuff WITHIN those stories. They want it to be, "If you have a championship, you EARNED it!" even though that's *the exact bullshit wrestling sold to marks since it began*. Why does it occur to us, people talking about backstage stuff, to even think "this person is main event material" to even be a coherent, reasonable statement? "Main event material" is whoever the bookers want to put in the main event, and that was all it ever meant. I mean part of it is very strategically that if you convince everyone working for you they're all in legit competition with one another instead of (or more importantly than) just being coworkers, they're more likely to put up with shitty pay and working conditions.... especially if the pay and working conditions get much less shitty if they WIN the competition.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 16, 2021 16:05:17 GMT -5
Kay supposedly being let go “because she had a ceiling” is only going to feed into this idea that the only people worth a shit are those with the potential to be main eventers. Like how do you even structure a proper roster with that mindset? This is how you end up with someone like Ricochet as borderline enhancement talent. The WWE got it into their heads that main event or nothing... which makes no sense... I can't help but think they heard teh IWC talking about people stuck in MidCard hell like 30 years ago... and the WWE decided that it meant that no one cared about the midcard and so they stopped caring about it... which... is just stupid... there's nothing wrong with people being midcarders or lower...
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
Posts: 13,996
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Post by salz4life on Apr 16, 2021 16:05:27 GMT -5
I don't look at the likes of Peter Avalon, Ryan Nemeth, Zicky Dice, Leva Bates, or Johnny Swinger in other companies and think to myself "Man, a shame they have a ceiling and will never be world champion, I guess they need to be fired". They're GOOD in their roles! Who cares if they have a ceiling when that ceiling is being good, and helping get other talents over? While ALSO being entertaining themselves and not being total jobbers??. Swinger is actually a really great example because this is a dude who was barely a player in ECW and original run TNA, even less of a player in WWE, he comes back to Impact and reinvents himself completely as a throwback and even made a great match from a dude who was a WCW Saturday Night staple and hadn’t shown up in 20 or so years. It’s not the biggest shift and he damn sure isn’t going to get a world title run from it but who would need that if you’re making money regardless? I don't watch much Impact, but I've seen some of Swinger and I think he's f'ing awesome!
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Post by Clutchhausen on Apr 16, 2021 16:07:05 GMT -5
Oof at the individual who said Peyton was the Janetty.
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
Posts: 13,996
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Post by salz4life on Apr 16, 2021 16:09:10 GMT -5
I feel like the Iiconics were the definition of "maximizing your minutes" like everyone says wrestlers should do. They took a what little gimmick they had and got it over, both with the casual fans who loved to boo them and the more hardcore fanbase that appreciated how willing they were to make themselves look like goofs. Then they break them up to put them in different tag teams, and they both had to start over. Billy gains some traction with her silly resume gimmick, with an awesome showing in the rumble. Peyton ups her game in the ring and gets at least a few people talking with a promo on Talking Smack (or Raw Talk, I honestly forget). Then they both get fired. Billie said she just wants to make people laugh, so I'm sure she was fine with where she was at as a comedy act who rarely wins. God forbid we have a fun undercard, though. She'll never be him..... but she should be treated as a new-generation Heenan. Make her a manager. She can get involved and when the time comes, she can bump. If they really wanted to give Peyton a single's run, they should've made Billie her "manager"..... oh but WWE doesn't like managers. I hope they end up in Impact/AEW. If it's Impact, I will DEFINITELY start watching to see how they do.
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Post by eJm on Apr 16, 2021 16:11:15 GMT -5
Swinger is actually a really great example because this is a dude who was barely a player in ECW and original run TNA, even less of a player in WWE, he comes back to Impact and reinvents himself completely as a throwback and even made a great match from a dude who was a WCW Saturday Night staple and hadn’t shown up in 20 or so years. It’s not the biggest shift and he damn sure isn’t going to get a world title run from it but who would need that if you’re making money regardless? I don't watch much Impact, but I've seen some of Swinger and I think he's f'ing awesome! I don't watch as much as I should but when I see him, he just seems like he's having so much fun. Also, when they did their own "Southpaw" show and Swinger was the "up-and-coming youngster"...*chef's kiss* so good.
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Post by MrElijah on Apr 16, 2021 16:11:16 GMT -5
Kay supposedly being let go “because she had a ceiling” is only going to feed into this idea that the only people worth a shit are those with the potential to be main eventers. Like how do you even structure a proper roster with that mindset? Like, even if that's not the reason, it's not the first time this has come up. Even HHH's infamous "If you're not going for the title, what are you here for?" speech just makes it seem like making money from any other aspect of your character seem remotely pointless if you're not aiming for the main event. It's just a weird damn mindset to have when Danhausen, a guy who is doing pre-shows for ROH, got on Conan O'Brien's podcast from his own gimmick. It's amazing that this is the same company that had Tito Santana, Jake Roberts, Honky Tonk Man, Greg Valentine and the best Tag Division that wasn't Crockett's. We all came for Hogan but people wanted to see HTM get his ass kicked too.
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Spider2024
Patti Mayonnaise
Dedicated 6,666th post to Irontyger
I believe in Joe Hendry.
Posts: 39,257
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Post by Spider2024 on Apr 16, 2021 16:15:52 GMT -5
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