Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 16:17:02 GMT -5
I think the most comparable example to the IIconics is Cryme Tyme. Got very over despite not really being the best team in the ring, never really got an actual push despite that, eventually broken up for basically no reason, and then released. The only real differences are that the IIconics actually won the tag titles and there was a wide gap between Shad and JTG's releases for no real reason.
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msc
Dennis Stamp
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Post by msc on Apr 16, 2021 16:17:56 GMT -5
I don't look at the likes of Peter Avalon, Ryan Nemeth, Zicky Dice, Leva Bates, or Johnny Swinger in other companies and think to myself "Man, a shame they have a ceiling and will never be world champion, I guess they need to be fired". They're GOOD in their roles! Who cares if they have a ceiling when that ceiling is being good, and helping get other talents over? While ALSO being entertaining themselves and not being total jobbers??. Swinger is actually a really great example because this is a dude who was barely a player in ECW and original run TNA, even less of a player in WWE, he comes back to Impact and reinvents himself completely as a throwback and even made a great match from a dude who was a WCW Saturday Night staple and hadn’t shown up in 20 or so years. It’s not the biggest shift and he damn sure isn’t going to get a world title run from it but who would need that if you’re making money regardless? Swinger always annoys me because he reminds me of one of my favourite ECW acts (Simon Diamond, complete with Drain STH entrance theme and motley crew of musketeers, Jason and oddities) as Swinger hooked up with him as a tag partner for a bit in the dying days of ECW. And then Diamond never got a run in WWE - he got a smallish one in TNA but as a completely different watered down character. Then Adam Rose showed up with basically the same gimmick and they ruined that too. Bah and humbug.
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Post by eJm on Apr 16, 2021 16:19:54 GMT -5
Like, even if that's not the reason, it's not the first time this has come up. Even HHH's infamous "If you're not going for the title, what are you here for?" speech just makes it seem like making money from any other aspect of your character seem remotely pointless if you're not aiming for the main event. It's just a weird damn mindset to have when Danhausen, a guy who is doing pre-shows for ROH, got on Conan O'Brien's podcast from his own gimmick. It's amazing that this is the same company that had Tito Santana, Jake Roberts, Honky Tonk Man, Greg Valentine and the best Tag Division that wasn't Crockett's. We all came for Hogan but people wanted to see HTM get his ass kicked too. Hell, Charles Wright is still getting work to this very day (he's booked for the end of the month on a show) as The Godfather who was pretty much the most midcard of midcard gimmicks you could get in the Attitude Era. Like, it's just such an insane mentality that lead to so many talented people being tossed aside because they weren't going to come in and get Austin pops before they stepped out of the curtain.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 16, 2021 16:22:59 GMT -5
Kay supposedly being let go “because she had a ceiling” is only going to feed into this idea that the only people worth a shit are those with the potential to be main eventers. Like how do you even structure a proper roster with that mindset? This is how you end up with someone like Ricochet as borderline enhancement talent. Well I mean first of all "had a ceiling" obviously means "didn't give me boners" and so let's not take the euphemism too literally. But let's take a step back and look at how weirdly mark-ish this whole discussion is. The WWE has worked very very hard to keep alive this idea that status on the card (and thus pay) is hierarchical and earned. In other words: their orientation towards their fictional stories completely reflects the competition stuff WITHIN those stories. They want it to be, "If you have a championship, you EARNED it!" even though that's *the exact bullshit wrestling sold to marks since it began*. Why does it occur to us, people talking about backstage stuff, to even think "this person is main event material" to even be a coherent, reasonable statement? "Main event material" is whoever the bookers want to put in the main event, and that was all it ever meant. I mean part of it is very strategically that if you convince everyone working for you they're all in legit competition with one another instead of (or more importantly than) just being coworkers, they're more likely to put up with shitty pay and working conditions.... especially if the pay and working conditions get much less shitty if they WIN the competition. If they tell you over and over that you have a chance and that you can go out there and earn a bigger spot, it's also going to keep a lot of people from hitting that disillusionment point where they realize every opportunity is a hollow lie. WWE won't motivate people with opportunity, a better working environment, or stability, but instead with a carrot on a stick and the faint hope that they can get over with the audience, move enough merch, make the company enough money, and get enough of a reaction, that they can convince management they deserve it. If you don't try and don't go above and beyond, you don't deserve the shot and everyone will race past you to the top. It keeps people grinding away and doing everything they can in the hope that they'll really get the push. But then instead, because this isn't all f***ed up and insidious enough already, the people who do prove themselves get shit on, derailed, and punished for getting over. Nobody can break past management(Vince)'s perception of them and if they can meaningfully do so, they'll be booked in some way to siphon their heat off or dismantle what they got over. Then they'll tell you that they're chanting your name to make fun of you and they don't really like you. So not only are you forced into artificial, fake competition with your colleagues to keep you all working as hard as you can and never taking management to task, but your reward if you do somehow win out is to get f***ing gaslit. It's kinda just evil all the way down.
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salz4life
Grimlock
Prichard is a guy who gets that his job is to service his boss.
Posts: 13,947
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Post by salz4life on Apr 16, 2021 16:23:18 GMT -5
I think the most comparable example to the IIconics is Cryme Tyme. Got very over despite not really being the best team in the ring, never really got an actual push despite that, eventually broken up for basically no reason, and then released. The only real differences are that the IIconics actually won the tag titles and there was a wide gap between Shad and JTG's releases for no real reason. Agreed..... and it's criminal that Cryme Time never won the tag titles. That gimmick wouldn't work today, but Shad/JTG could've made it work for today's audience. They were so much fun!
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Apr 16, 2021 16:24:27 GMT -5
I think the most comparable example to the IIconics is Cryme Tyme. Got very over despite not really being the best team in the ring, never really got an actual push despite that, eventually broken up for basically no reason, and then released. The only real differences are that the IIconics actually won the tag titles and there was a wide gap between Shad and JTG's releases for no real reason. JTG was hiding in the broom closet for seven years
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Apr 16, 2021 16:25:32 GMT -5
Kalisto was one of the most exciting cruisers/lucha/flippy guys on the independents too when he was signed and I cant imagine he's lost anything, another person it'd be good to see everywhere
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 16:26:36 GMT -5
Kalisto was one of the most exciting cruisers/lucha/flippy guys on the independents too when he was signed and I cant imagine he's lost anything, another person it'd be good to see everywhere I was never a huge fan of Kalisto but I'll give it that his Chairs Match with Corbin was like 800 times better than it ever should've been.
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Post by Von Wagner's Brownies on Apr 16, 2021 16:51:26 GMT -5
Kevin Dunn didn't "get" Billie Kay much like he doesn't "get" that he can use just one camera cut during a match/segment/promo. (I don't know if that makes sense or not)
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 16, 2021 16:54:36 GMT -5
Kevin Dunn didn't "get" Billie Kay much like he doesn't "get" that he can use just one camera cut during a match/segment/promo. (I don't know if that makes sense or not) Taken 3 Special Guest Editor Kevin Dunn >_>
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Post by Cyno on Apr 16, 2021 16:55:34 GMT -5
Kevin Dunn said the same thing about Becky Lynch he said about Billie Kay, also because of her accent. Only Vince actually saw money in Becky Lynch so he overrode him on that. Seems that Dunn is kind of a xenophobic asshole.
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Demented
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Winner of the Harleen F. Quinzel Legacy of Puddin Award
What am I doing here?
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Post by Demented on Apr 16, 2021 16:55:50 GMT -5
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 16:56:26 GMT -5
Kalisto was one of the most exciting cruisers/lucha/flippy guys on the independents too when he was signed and I cant imagine he's lost anything, another person it'd be good to see everywhere I was never a huge fan of Kalisto but I'll give it that his Chairs Match with Corbin was like 800 times better than it ever should've been. Kalisto's matches with big guys were usually more entertaining than his matches with other cruiserweights. He was funny that way.
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Post by MrElijah on Apr 16, 2021 16:58:02 GMT -5
It's amazing that this is the same company that had Tito Santana, Jake Roberts, Honky Tonk Man, Greg Valentine and the best Tag Division that wasn't Crockett's. We all came for Hogan but people wanted to see HTM get his ass kicked too. Hell, Charles Wright is still getting work to this very day (he's booked for the end of the month on a show) as The Godfather who was pretty much the most midcard of midcard gimmicks you could get in the Attitude Era. Like, it's just such an insane mentality that lead to so many talented people being tossed aside because they weren't going to come in and get Austin pops before they stepped out of the curtain. Shit it goes deeper than that, IMHO. They treat midcarders like JTTS, when it comes to main event they make sure they don't get too big because as before, The Brand is The Draw and if you get successful outside of WWE they feel a certain way, see Cena & Batista.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,164
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 16, 2021 17:04:07 GMT -5
Kalisto was one of the most exciting cruisers/lucha/flippy guys on the independents too when he was signed and I cant imagine he's lost anything, another person it'd be good to see everywhere Kalisto felt like another one where WWE made him change his style and it ended up in him being less crisp and botchy at times. Kalisto should be wrestling like a Laredo Kid. But they had him trying to do shit he clearly wasn't comfortable with, on top of trying to make him talk and getting Good Lucha Things out of it. Samuray Del Sol will be a welcome comeback to the Indies and beyond I feel.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 16, 2021 17:07:42 GMT -5
I sincerely can't think of a person whose opinion I'd value less than Kevin Dunn's. He seems like a guy who has his own biography on the WWE corporate site memorized in case anyone asks him why they should listen to him, and he'll recite it the second anyone disagrees with him.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 17:11:15 GMT -5
I sincerely can't think of a person whose opinion I'd value less than Kevin Dunn's. He seems like a guy who has his own biography on the WWE corporate site memorized in case anyone asks him why they should listen to him, and he'll recite it the second anyone disagrees with him. f*** that idiot. Kevin Dunnce is more like it, am I right?
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Post by Muskrat on Apr 16, 2021 17:12:46 GMT -5
Billie said she just wants to make people laugh, so I'm sure she was fine with where she was at as a comedy act who rarely wins. God forbid we have a fun undercard, though. She'll never be him..... but she should be treated as a new-generation Heenan. Make her a manager. She can get involved and when the time comes, she can bump. If they really wanted to give Peyton a single's run, they should've made Billie her "manager"..... oh but WWE doesn't like managers. I hope they end up in Impact/AEW. If it's Impact, I will DEFINITELY start watching to see how they do. Buddy and I were watching Mania, and were talking about how Billie is absolute dogshit in the ring but so incredibly entertaining outside it that they should make her a major player as a manager. And then they fired her days later
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 17:13:24 GMT -5
Kay supposedly being let go “because she had a ceiling” is only going to feed into this idea that the only people worth a shit are those with the potential to be main eventers. Like how do you even structure a proper roster with that mindset? Like, even if that's not the reason, it's not the first time this has come up. Even HHH's infamous "If you're not going for the title, what are you here for?" speech just makes it seem like making money from any other aspect of your character seem remotely pointless if you're not aiming for the main event. It's just a weird damn mindset to have when Danhausen, a guy who is doing pre-shows for ROH, got on Conan O'Brien's podcast from his own gimmick. I’d rather watch a Danhausen match than 90 percent of the current roster. That other post of talking about Zicky Dice, Swinger, Avalon, those are some of my favorite guys, wrestling always needs over the top characters. That’s one of the reasons the attitude era was so huge, everyone had characters and given something to do. Guys like Gangrel, Al Snow, Crash Holly, Val Venis, they weren’t winning world titles, but they were sure as hell fun to watch.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Apr 16, 2021 17:14:38 GMT -5
Vince McMahon has survived by hitching his wagon onto huge stars who got hot, Hogan, Rock, Austin, and to a lesser extent Cena, Lesnar. He has no interest in any long term success, that is why he is content to just shuffle through a ton of people, put a rocket to their backs, and the second it doesn't work out, send them to the curve; with the exception of someone who catches his eye, like Charlotte.
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