Timeless Hayterade
Dennis Stamp
Rhea's the Tribal Chief now. ACKNOWLEDGE MAMI!
Posts: 4,667
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Post by Timeless Hayterade on Jun 23, 2021 9:13:34 GMT -5
I'm happy for her.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 23, 2021 17:44:32 GMT -5
So yeah, if you're straight, it might not matter. Good for you, but for kids that are LGBT, seeing openly gay wrestlers like Darren Young, Jake Atlas and Sonya Deville, and bisexual wrestlers like Tegan Nox, Piper Niven and Toni Storm is important, and seeing the acceptance of them (and of Carl Nassib) is important. I had to Google this Toni Storm. And much like the names mentioned above, other than Sonya Deville and Darren Young, I don't know who they are. It's great that there is representation and these are proud LGBTQ members but lets be honest, none of them are high profile enough to make headlines. Let's say for arguments sake, Charlotte Flair or Randy Orton came out - whole different ball game and a LOT more eyes on it. |
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,690
Member is Online
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Post by lucas_lee on Jun 23, 2021 17:59:30 GMT -5
So yeah, if you're straight, it might not matter. Good for you, but for kids that are LGBT, seeing openly gay wrestlers like Darren Young, Jake Atlas and Sonya Deville, and bisexual wrestlers like Tegan Nox, Piper Niven and Toni Storm is important, and seeing the acceptance of them (and of Carl Nassib) is important. I had to Google this Toni Storm. And much like the names mentioned above, other than Sonya Deville and Darren Young, I don't know who they are. It's great that there is representation and these are proud LGBTQ members but lets be honest, none of them are high profile enough to make headlines. Let's say for arguments sake, Charlotte Flair or Randy Orton came out - whole different ball game and a LOT more eyes on it. I dont think this response is right. Who cares how famous they are to YOU. Headlines or not theyre coming out and its important to them and may help someone whose in the closet come out as well. So who cares if they're not as well known, they're making it safe for LBGTQ wrestlers to come out and feel safe. **** their fame level |
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 23, 2021 19:13:32 GMT -5
Newton's third law of wrestlers coming out: for every announcement there must be a sum of equal and opposite bad takes.
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Post by eJm on Jun 23, 2021 19:19:29 GMT -5
I had to Google this Toni Storm. And much like the names mentioned above, other than Sonya Deville and Darren Young, I don't know who they are. It's great that there is representation and these are proud LGBTQ members but lets be honest, none of them are high profile enough to make headlines. Let's say for arguments sake, Charlotte Flair or Randy Orton came out - whole different ball game and a LOT more eyes on it. I dont think this response is right. Who cares how famous they are to YOU. Headlines or not theyre coming out and its important to them and may help someone whose in the closet come out as well. So who cares if they're not as well known, they're making it safe for LBGTQ wrestlers to come out and feel safe. **** their fame level Also, not being funny, but having “a bigger name” come out isn’t going to fix a lot of the systematic problems there still are for people in those communities overnight. Nyla Rose is trans and the second AEW Women’s champion. You only have to look at news stories in many places (especially in my old home of the UK) to know that didn’t suddenly make people change their wrong opinions about the trans community at large. |
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Post by Cyno on Jun 23, 2021 20:19:11 GMT -5
Newton's third law of wrestlers coming out: for every announcement there must be a sum of equal and opposite bad takes. And an addendum to this:
The bad takes can usually be divided into well-intentioned but tone-deaf, and homophobic but using coded language to not be as obvious about their bigotry.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jun 23, 2021 20:24:28 GMT -5
What if someone is attracted to men, women, and nonbinary peoples? That does that make them trisexual?  As a bisexual nonbinary person who's dated other bisexual nonbinary people, it's often a matter of just not caring about the exact etymology and definition. Some of us already picked the term and are sticking with it; some just like it better than pansexual as a word; some go with it because it's more known than pansexual....whatever. People are complicated and sometimes a label is just the one that fits best instead of an exact prescriptive box for one's behavior. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 23, 2021 20:35:21 GMT -5
I had to Google this Toni Storm. And much like the names mentioned above, other than Sonya Deville and Darren Young, I don't know who they are. It's great that there is representation and these are proud LGBTQ members but lets be honest, none of them are high profile enough to make headlines. Let's say for arguments sake, Charlotte Flair or Randy Orton came out - whole different ball game and a LOT more eyes on it. I dont think this response is right. Who cares how famous they are to YOU. Headlines or not theyre coming out and its important to them and may help someone whose in the closet come out as well. So who cares if they're not as well known, they're making it safe for LBGTQ wrestlers to come out and feel safe. **** their fame level I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information? The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. |
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,690
Member is Online
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Post by lucas_lee on Jun 23, 2021 21:28:24 GMT -5
I dont think this response is right. Who cares how famous they are to YOU. Headlines or not theyre coming out and its important to them and may help someone whose in the closet come out as well. So who cares if they're not as well known, they're making it safe for LBGTQ wrestlers to come out and feel safe. **** their fame level I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information? The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. Nah man just nah. |
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Kyn
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,623
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Post by Kyn on Jun 23, 2021 22:29:58 GMT -5
I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information? The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. "Oh no, only 10,000 people know who I am, I can't possibly come out and make a difference until a million people know my name." - said no one ever. It doesn't matter if this has a positive effect on one person or 1000 people, positive change is positive change. |
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 23, 2021 22:36:56 GMT -5
I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information? The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. "Oh no, only 10,000 people know who I am, I can't possibly come out and make a difference until a million people know my name." - said no one ever. It doesn't matter if this has a positive effect on one person or 1000 people, positive change is positive change. This is true and I agree with you, and I'm not saying this here to correct you or be pedantic but more just to put out there: Toni Storm has over half a million Instagram followers, so even if for some insane reason she had to 'earn' notoriety to make coming out matter, she's f***ing got it. The fact this even has to be argued against is demented. |
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Post by Cyno on Jun 23, 2021 22:52:22 GMT -5
I dont think this response is right. Who cares how famous they are to YOU. Headlines or not theyre coming out and its important to them and may help someone whose in the closet come out as well. So who cares if they're not as well known, they're making it safe for LBGTQ wrestlers to come out and feel safe. **** their fame level I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information? The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. Carl Nassib wasn't a household name to anyone outside of Raiders fans (and even then, probably not that many) until he came out as the first active gay NFL player. But his jersey is now one of the best-selling ones in football, from all accounts, his sexuality has been accepted by his teammates, he's gotten the support of many of the big names among both former and current NFL players like Saquon Barkley and Victor Cruz, and he's opened the door for maybe more NFL players to come out. It hopefully gives some semblance of hope and courage to closeted football players at the high school or college level that being queer isn't a barrier to the elite levels of their sport. |
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Post by Starshine on Jun 23, 2021 23:40:08 GMT -5
I dont think this response is right. Who cares how famous they are to YOU. Headlines or not theyre coming out and its important to them and may help someone whose in the closet come out as well. So who cares if they're not as well known, they're making it safe for LBGTQ wrestlers to come out and feel safe. **** their fame level I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information?The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. I mean, Google exists for exactly that. Plus there's a number of A-lister celebrities who have opened up as being bisexual, and institutionalized prejudice still exists. Just because more names added to the list aren't at that level doesn't mean we should compare how much reach it'll have. Also, it's just not nice to undercut someone coming out by responding in a manner of; "you're not important enough for this to make a difference." That's not the point. |
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jun 24, 2021 0:09:39 GMT -5
I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information? The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. Carl Nassib wasn't a household name to anyone outside of Raiders fans (and even then, probably not that many) until he came out as the first active gay NFL player. But his jersey is now one of the best-selling ones in football, from all accounts, his sexuality has been accepted by his teammates, he's gotten the support of many of the big names among both former and current NFL players like Saquon Barkley and Victor Cruz, and he's opened the door for maybe more NFL players to come out. It hopefully gives some semblance of hope and courage to closeted football players at the high school or college level that being queer isn't a barrier to the elite levels of their sport. And with wrestling, the smaller names have brought on a solid change. Like, I distinctly remember a particularly vile weirdness on here where someone hated Darren Young for being 'the wrong first gay guy' because they didn't like him and he wasn't very good or whatever. But in the very few years since that happened, we now have a lot more prominent queer wrestlers. Maybe not top level, no. But at the same time, the fact a lot of them are on the younger end of thigns and especially down in developmental, is part of what is such a big deal. We have a generation of wrestlers coming out well before they hit the bit time, while still in the early days of their careers. Wrestlers who have entered the business already out and who haven't been shunned for it. It speaks to a broadening acceptance in the industry that nobody feels like they're going to be punished and abandoned for who they are when you could legally be fired for being gay or trans as of June 2020. But we now have countless queer wrestlers up and down the business, all over the indies, tons of them in AEW and some of whom aren't even particularly out there about it. I don't know how many years we are from having a top-tier WWE wrestler who's out. It's impossible to say. But beside there being no value in "You aren't big enough for your identity to matter to other people", I strongly think the road to that day is infinitely broader if it is normalized within the industry, and there has been heaps of progress in only the past decade toward that. |
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Post by Cyno on Jun 24, 2021 0:18:10 GMT -5
What's helped wrestling, even in the days where things were a lot more openly homophobic, was that there were allies in powerful positions in the locker room. Folks like Kevin Nash and John Cena have been nothing but supportive of the LGBTQ+ community within wrestling because of their experience with supporting their gay family members.
In WWE in particular, an openly gay man has been a major part of the company's history as both a wrestler and as part of Vince McMahon's inner circle. I'm not going to pretend Pat Patterson didn't face his share of bigotry and discrimination in either of these roles, but I think the barrier of acceptance in WWE, at least, was a lot easier to overcome because of his influence compared to other parts of the industry.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 24, 2021 1:03:49 GMT -5
I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information? The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. Carl Nassib wasn't a household name to anyone outside of Raiders fans (and even then, probably not that many) until he came out as the first active gay NFL player. But his jersey is now one of the best-selling ones in football, from all accounts, his sexuality has been accepted by his teammates, he's gotten the support of many of the big names among both former and current NFL players like Saquon Barkley and Victor Cruz, and he's opened the door for maybe more NFL players to come out. It hopefully gives some semblance of hope and courage to closeted football players at the high school or college level that being queer isn't a barrier to the elite levels of their sport. Fair point. I have nothing more to add here. |
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 24, 2021 1:36:30 GMT -5
I was responding to these coming outs being inspirational to closeted kids, not the wrestlers themselves or the aspect of them being able to safely be themselves within the pro-wrestling field, which wasn't my point. How's a kid meant to know its OK to be yourself and be able to work in pro-wrestling if the representation in said field isn't that well known and you don't come across this information?The bigger the celebrity, the more attention on the matter and the message for inspiration. That's my point. Do I hope that Toni Storm reaches the upper echelon of the 'E and can be an influencer to a generation? Absolutely. I mean, Google exists for exactly that. Plus there's a number of A-lister celebrities who have opened up as being bisexual, and institutionalized prejudice still exists. Just because more names added to the list aren't at that level doesn't mean we should compare how much reach it'll have. Also, it's just not nice to undercut someone coming out by responding in a manner of; "you're not important enough for this to make a difference." That's not the point. Yes it doesn't sound nice at all. Apologies for taking the stance I did |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,026
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jun 24, 2021 4:19:41 GMT -5
This story literally went up on the BBC this morning. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/57552666It's about someone needing to pretend to be straight to learn how to surf. There is a long way to go around the world for this, the more acceptance that can be promoted the better. If someone's announcing their sexuality, doesn't matter if it's a million, a thousand, or just to the people who know them, it's all important. If it helps even one person, including the person doing it, that's enough. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 24, 2021 11:21:40 GMT -5
I just want to say that this thread is part of why I am still on this forum after over a decade
The responses on here have been so welcoming. Honestly even most of the ones in the 'why does this matter' camp have been so much less abrasive than what you see elsewhere or even much of what we would have seen on here a few years ago
We're actually getting somewhere with this queer acceptance thing
Thank-you everybody, especially Toni, Viper, Darren Young, Sonny Kiss, Aubrey Edwards and yeah even Orlando Jordan because terrible representation is still superior to no representation or at least often represents the next step in the process to good representation
And as a side note to the earlier discussion which I know the guy walked back, this isn't to pile on, but... Charlie Morgan coming to the ring at Wrestle Queendom, wrapped in a rainbow flag, having publicly come out in an in-ring promo for the same promotion a few months previously is the exact moment I decided to come out to my family, and now I finally am honest about who I am to everyone. However my dad died before I could come out to him. He is the only one who will never geto know. Maybe if the world had allowed more Charlie Morgans a few years earlier I would have found the courage in time.
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