Was KOTR 95 originally going to have Razor in the finals?

[wildojinx]

Something about King of the Ring 1995 that people forget is that Razor Ramon was originally going to be in it, but due to an injury they had to sub in Vega. If Razor hadnt gotten injured, would he have had made it to the finals (unclear whether he would have won)?

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

I feel like that night they said, f*** it, give Savio the exact booking Hall would have had and see if it gets him over. Just this once. As a treat.

[fg]

Sept 22, 2021 13:34:45 GMT -5 wildojinx said:

Something about King of the Ring 1995 that people forget is that Razor Ramon was originally going to be in it, but due to an injury they had to sub in Vega. If Razor hadnt gotten injured, would he have had made it to the finals (unclear whether he would have won)?

I think that would have been better than what we got but the future Big Daddy V would have still won.

[msc]

They all but admit it on the show, there's a commentary line about how Razor Ramon could be cleared for one match, but "obviously Razor Ramon would probably have made the final and they couldn't clear him for three matches in a night so quickly". I paraphrase after 20 odd years.

[Aceorton]

Had he followed the Vega path exactly, it would have been his second year straight making it to the finals and losing, and his third elimination from the tournament overall.

I suspect that's where they were going, though. The Men on a Mission vs. Razor/Vega match at the July IYH (Razor's first match back from his rib injury from early June) feels like evidence that Razor vs. Mabel was already planned for that show to build up Mabel for Diesel at SummerSlam, and they turned it into a tag to (a) keep Vega in the narrative and (b) take the load off Hall in his first match back.

[greyfmdan]

I know Mabel gets the attention. But I’ve long thought the booking of that tournament as a whole was just bizarre. Seriously, you eliminate Shawn, Undertaker, and Yokozuna all in the first round… and go this direction instead?

[wildojinx]

Bob Holly in his book claims that Savio only got the major push at the show because he was friends with Taker. Cant say I agree with him, since if that was the case, why not give Savio the KOTR?

[Mozenrath]

I suspect they went with Savio for the way they booked him because A. they tried to protect all of the name guys from eating a meaningful loss in the tournament, which instead had the effect of making Mabel's win feel like not a big deal at all, and B. Savio is a guy who generally had the respect of other wrestlers as being solid, even if audiences weren't really acquainted with him yet enough to where they should have used him like this.

If Razor had been there, yeah, it'd have helped. Hall was certainly more over with the audience, but it'd have still likely been a bit of a travesty.

[Paco]

Sept 22, 2021 22:14:54 GMT -5 greyfmdan said:

I know Mabel gets the attention. But I’ve long thought the booking of that tournament as a whole was just bizarre. Seriously, you eliminate Shawn, Undertaker, and Yokozuna all in the first round… and go this direction instead?

Sept 22, 2021 22:53:43 GMT -5 wildojinx said:

Bob Holly in his book claims that Savio only got the major push at the show because he was friends with Taker. Cant say I agree with him, since if that was the case, why not give Savio the KOTR?

Because this whole tournament was done to make a new monster heel for Diesel to face.

The good ol' Hogan formula.

[skip217]

Sept 22, 2021 22:14:54 GMT -5 greyfmdan said:

I know Mabel gets the attention. But I’ve long thought the booking of that tournament as a whole was just bizarre. Seriously, you eliminate Shawn, Undertaker, and Yokozuna all in the first round… and go this direction instead?

In a strange way I actually enjoyed this on first viewing, seeing those guys eliminated straight away added a shock factor for me. Of course you look back now and realise how absurd it was, but as a kid watching it like a real sports tournament it was cool.

[msc]

The 1995 King of the Ring is nuts because even for 1995, look at the available roster they had for that tournament:

- Bret "Hitman" Hart
- Shawn Michaels
- The Undertaker
- Owen Hart
- Fatu
- Razor Ramon (hurt)
- Yokozuna,
- Bam-Bam Bigelow,
- Jerry "The King" Lawler
- Lex Luger
- The 1-2-3 Kid (hurt)
- Adam Bomb
- Jean Pierre LaFitte
- Jeff Jarrett (hurt, iirc)
- Savio Vega (used)
- Bob "Spark Plugg" Holly (used)
- "The British Bulldog" Davey Boy Smith
- Hakushi,
- Chris "Skip" Candido
"The Roadie" Brian Armstrong (used)
- Hunter Hearst Helmsley (maybe too new)

Even with injuries you could have put something together with Shawn, Bret, Taker, Owen (sitting backstage), Yoko, Bam Bam, Luger, Bulldog, Hakushi, Skip or so on and produce a compelling tournament. You could even put a new heel over Shawn in the final by cheating if you want someone to challenge Diesel.

1995 had a small roster, but they actively chose to go for Mabel/Savio Vega.

[jason1980s]

I personal wish the KOTR PPVs were like the Wrestling Classic where they were all the tournament matches. I get you had more TV shows now to showcase the qualifying matches but it would have been cool to see all the guys on one PPV.
I didn't like how they watered the PPV down by only having three total KOTR matches starting in 1996. Maybe it was because of how low tier the 1995 edition was.

[Futureraven: Beelzebruv]

Sept 24, 2021 9:16:15 GMT -5 jason1980s said:

I personal wish the KOTR PPVs were like the Wrestling Classic where they were all the tournament matches. I get you had more TV shows now to showcase the qualifying matches but it would have been cool to see all the guys on one PPV.
I didn't like how they watered the PPV down by only having three total KOTR matches starting in 1996. Maybe it was because of how low tier the 1995 edition was.

Which would be typical in the "it couldn't have been our bad booking, let's find another reason and change something" attitude.

As pointed out, they could have had a killer tournament, hell, even with Mabel still winning, put him in against 3 top line workers, 3 matches as good as he could have, he'll look better.

[msc]

Sept 24, 2021 10:07:35 GMT -5 Futureraven: Beelzebruv said:

Sept 24, 2021 9:16:15 GMT -5 jason1980s said:

I personal wish the KOTR PPVs were like the Wrestling Classic where they were all the tournament matches. I get you had more TV shows now to showcase the qualifying matches but it would have been cool to see all the guys on one PPV.
I didn't like how they watered the PPV down by only having three total KOTR matches starting in 1996. Maybe it was because of how low tier the 1995 edition was.

Which would be typical in the "it couldn't have been our bad booking, let's find another reason and change something" attitude.

As pointed out, they could have had a killer tournament, hell, even with Mabel still winning, put him in against 3 top line workers, 3 matches as good as he could have, he'll look better.

Yeah, I mean...

You could have Mabel get to the final by disposing of, say, Taker and Bret, and have Shawn go 20+ with Owen in the other Semi so he's tired in the final. Or swap Bret and Shawn if need be.

And I think Savio was a good hand to have around but he was not the man to have to try to carry Mabel.

['Foretold' Joker]

What still baffles me is why both Owen and Davey Boy were not used at all?? I mean they didn't even have a match outside of the kotr tournament.

What I would have done assuming the winner had to be Mabel and the Ramon injury had to still be sorted out.


Adam Bomb
Mabel                    Mabel                      Mabel                      Mabel

Jarrett
Undertaker             Undertaker

Mantaur
Owen Hart              Owen Hart

KK Bundy
Shawn Michaels      Shawn Michaels       Shawn Michaels



Davey Boy Smith    Davey Boy               Davey Boy              Davey Boy Smith
Kama


The Roadie             The Roadie
Doink


Lex Luger
Yokozuna               Yokozuna


Razor Ramon*        Savio Vega              Savio Vega**
Jacob Blu


*Razor wins but due to injury subs out for Savio
** Razor gets jealous or annoyed at Savio and costs him the semi final.


Mabel vs Davey Boy Smith is the final match, Mabel wins but the tournament is improved a bit.

[evilone]

Problem with three-match KotR has always been the limited talent that can actually pull three matches in one night. 1993-1995 KotR is the real iron man performance because it requried the finalists to go through different match styles and trought three loops of match's established narratiives. If you pay attention big guys have always had BYE round, both Bam Bam and Mabel in semis as a breather for them and the others. There was always a one match that went to time limit in order to fill in the running time as well as to give big guy BYE and the rest for everyone else. Quite clever construction from booking side. Both Bam Bam and Mabel have wrestled over 20 minutes at the show which is respectable. The only flunk was Owen vs 123 Kid which ran miserable 3 minutes, I guess Owens cardio wasn't the best at the time. That match should have ran a lot longer. Bret was the absolute beast in 1993 for wrestling close to 50 minute mark. Undisputed stuff.

I couldn't care less about 1996 KotR and whatever happened after but I never understood why Austin vs Mero was not the final match since it ran the longest.

[ThankGodForSidJustice]

Sept 24, 2021 18:37:32 GMT -5 evilone said:

Problem with three-match KotR has always been the limited talent that can actually pull three matches in one night. 1993-1995 KotR is the real iron man performance because it requried the finalists to go through different match styles and trought three loops of match's established narratiives. If you pay attention big guys have always had BYE round, both Bam Bam and Mabel in semis as a breather for them and the others. There was always a one match that went to time limit in order to fill in the running time as well as to give big guy BYE and the rest for everyone else. Quite clever construction from booking side. Both Bam Bam and Mabel have wrestled over 20 minutes at the show which is respectable. The only flunk was Owen vs 123 Kid which ran miserable 3 minutes, I guess Owens cardio wasn't the best at the time. That match should have ran a lot longer. Bret was the absolute beast in 1993 for wrestling close to 50 minute mark. Undisputed stuff.

I couldn't care less about 1996 KotR and whatever happened after but I never understood why Austin vs Mero was not the final match since it ran the longest.

I think he had the cardio I think it had more to do with the fact that in 94 there ended up being no byes so there was more matches and they needed to speed things along quicker. No match in that tournament went over 10 minutes. None of Razor's matches were long either. Both Mabel and Bam Bam were in that tournament but both got eliminated in the first round and they were the only fat guys involved so they didn't have to worry about giving any one a breather. With the four guys who got past the first round and had to work more then once you had two small guys (Owen, Kid) and then two mid sized type guys (Razor, IRS).