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Post by EZ: Brainy Bae on Nov 30, 2021 15:32:52 GMT -5
One of the greatest wrestlers of his generation (and all-time) is a guy who is 5'8", has no impressive strength, no outstanding definition, everyday looks, no "high-flyer" bonafides despite his poor size, meh speed/explosiveness, no costume or gimmick, passable but unspectacular mic skills and doesn't maim himself to compensate for any of this. Sheer dedication to the craft and understanding its psychology/techniques is what he has.
Bryan Danielson.
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Post by EZ: Brainy Bae on Nov 30, 2021 15:50:59 GMT -5
Also I'd be wary of using "played high school sports" as showing athletic prowess. Unless it's a storied high school football/basketball program, most high schools sports are (rightly) more about who takes interest, shows up and puts in the work. A ton of friends played high school sports and very few of them would I have considered athletic. They nonetheless should have absolutely had the opportunity to play (and get their ass kicked due to it).
Once you get to the collegiate levels I'd say it's more about merit - sickeningly so.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Nov 30, 2021 15:52:30 GMT -5
Haha, okay, I stand corrected. Maybe I thought Flair seem to lack physical gifts when compared with his amazing success and often being called the greatest of all time. With Dusty, it's just that he had a physique that doesn't make you think, "He should be a pro wrestler." Maybe Sandman is a better example, although I don't know if he counts as a "great wrestler"
In my opinion, Sandman was a great wrestler. He was wildly over. That's all it takes to be great. People wanted to see Sandman. IMHO that's the pure essence of Pro Wrestling. And he basically looked like somebody's uncle wandering around drunk during the height of his career. Which is weird that he got into like the best shape of his career for WWE and... then hte WWE really didn't use him for anything.
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Post by Psicofreak667 on Nov 30, 2021 15:56:08 GMT -5
Sara Del Rey admitted in an interview that she wasn't naturally athletic, that she had a ton of trouble picking up wrestling techniques and she even had to spend an extra year in wrestling school.
Of course, she went on to be arguably the top woman of the indies of the 2000s, which lead to WWE scooping her up as a trainer, where she ended up having a huge behind-the-scenes role in the Women's Revolution.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2021 16:04:47 GMT -5
One of the greatest wrestlers of his generation (and all-time) is a guy who is 5'8", has no impressive strength, no outstanding definition, everyday looks, no "high-flyer" bonafides despite his poor size, meh speed/explosiveness, no costume or gimmick, passable but unspectacular mic skills and doesn't maim himself to compensate for any of this. Sheer dedication to the craft and understanding its psychology/techniques is what he has. Bryan Danielson. Eh, I think you're underselling him a bit. For one, he has mma training, enough that he went to sessions with and roomed with guys who legitimately became UFC fighters. He's also had various degrees of the traits you said he lacks. There have been times where he had a very good pro wrestling look, he's cut above average to great promos, he"s been able to get a ton of heat in the proper environments. I don't get where he hasn't shown he's strong. Dude does a ton of mat wrestling that necessitates having strength. He started out doing a psuedo lucha-style and regularly does topes, top rope drop kicks, diving head butts, and other high flying moves. And, while he doesn't maim himself, he had to cut down on a very physical style that led to him missing years of his career.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Nov 30, 2021 16:06:48 GMT -5
I'm confused on the premise of the question. Do we mean gifted in terms of athletic ability? If so, talking about people like Punk and especially Cena is ridiculous. Punk has great cardiovascular conditioning, he's really limber, and he's deceptively strong. Cena's one of the most athletically gifted people I've ever seen, in terms of his strength and conditioning.
And if it's not athletic ability, what gifts are we talking about? I'm gonna go a different direction and say everything related to the ACTING part of wrestling: communicating to the audience what your character wants, what part of your body hurts, what your strategy in a match is, etc. And for that, I gotta say either Warrior or second-half-of-his-career Scott Steiner.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Nov 30, 2021 16:18:31 GMT -5
Alexa Bliss due to her size and only a cheerleading background which is better than nothing but bugger all compared to her indieriffic peers but she overachieved as was in nxt for a short time and mostly as a valet for team strobe lighting (can't remember their name and too lazy to look it up) and then sent to the main roster and pushed from day one presumably due to her looks but didn't disgrace herself and kept her spot for a few years after due to her ability to hang with the horsewomen and others. Nikki Bella debuted in 2008 with her sister because John Laurinaitis enjoyed the look of them in their underwear (I'd like to think thanksgiving and xmas dinners for Johnny boy now are awkward but I suspect the silly old goat doesn't have a hint of shame) and both were completely useless until 2013ish when Brie improved a little although quickly taking steps back due to inaction and lack of confidence but Nikki went from clutz to ring general in a shockingly short space of time. I don't think any of these fit the description. It's people who weren't athletically gifted but despite that were still good wrestlers/workers. With those three one is a great athlete who is a mediocre wrestler, one is a good athlete who eventually got good, and one is a subpar athlete who never got good. Alexa was a cheerleader and I believe a gymnast as well. Other then having subpar strength with how tiny she is I would say she is super athletic as she clearly is very agile and has great dexterity which is evident some of her flips she can do. If anything I would say she's the antithesis of this thread as she's a gifted athlete who really doesn't use her gifts as much as she should and in ring I would say is an average worker at best. She's been very successful but that's been thanks to being good at the non wrestling stuff that WWE goes gah gah over (promos, character work). With the Bellas Nikki has proven to be a good athlete as she's clearly pretty strong and was decently quick/agile as well and even though it took forever eventually got pretty good her last few years. Brie never got good and a lot of that was probably due to not being athletic as her sister and probably not being savvy enough due to them not having a background prior to WWE to know how to work around like it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2021 16:19:12 GMT -5
We've talked about Raven and Sandman, but I think this fits a lot of the guys who became bona fide wrestling legends primarily due to their runs in the original ECW. Tommy Dreamer fits the bill too, to me. He literally looks like a fan in a T-shirt, but he had some of the most brilliant matches in terms of ring psychology in ECW that I've ever seen. And he's parlayed that into pretty good runs in WWE and IMPACT and gotten himself into a position where he's still active at 50. And I know he's way past his prime, but his more recent appearances have been credible and not embarrassing in my opinion (DSOTR notwithstanding).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2021 16:21:14 GMT -5
One of the greatest wrestlers of his generation (and all-time) is a guy who is 5'8", has no impressive strength, no outstanding definition, everyday looks, no "high-flyer" bonafides despite his poor size, meh speed/explosiveness, no costume or gimmick, passable but unspectacular mic skills and doesn't maim himself to compensate for any of this. Sheer dedication to the craft and understanding its psychology/techniques is what he has. Bryan Danielson. Eh, I think you're underselling him a bit. For one, he has mma training, enough that he went to sessions with and roomed with guys who legitimately became UFC fighters. He's also had various degrees of the traits you said he lacks. There have been times where he had a very good pro wrestling look, he's cut above average to great promos, he"s been able to get a ton of heat in the proper environments. I don't get where he hasn't shown he's strong. Dude does a ton of mat wrestling that necessitates having strength. He started out doing a psuedo lucha-style and regularly does topes, top rope drop kicks, diving head butts, and other high flying moves. And, while he doesn't maim himself, he had to cut down on a very physical style that led to him missing years of his careers. Yeah, really the only thing that Bryan ever had going against him was size. If he gets onto this list, I think that Rey Mysterio has to as well.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Nov 30, 2021 17:15:01 GMT -5
Alexa was a cheerleader and I believe a gymnast as well. Other then having subpar strength with how tiny she is I would say she is super athletic as she clearly is very agile and has great dexterity which is evident some of her flips she can do. Alexa Bliss was also a bodybuilder, she was recruited from the Arnold classic. She's small but I wouldn't e surprised if she was stronger than you would suspect from her size (well maybe more so when she started than years after she stopped competing but still).
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Nov 30, 2021 17:34:40 GMT -5
Ricky Morton "got" wrestling from the beginning and was around it his whole life, so it's not a shock that he became a success.
But just looking at him physically, and realizing he's been a smoker since at least the '80s (Flair would threaten to blow him up every night), it's surprising that he's still doing good (albeit shorter) matches, complete with dives to the outside on bigger shows.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2021 17:35:38 GMT -5
Alexa was a cheerleader and I believe a gymnast as well. Other then having subpar strength with how tiny she is I would say she is super athletic as she clearly is very agile and has great dexterity which is evident some of her flips she can do. Alexa Bliss was also a bodybuilder, she was recruited from the Arnold classic. She's small but I wouldn't e surprised if she was stronger than you would suspect from her size (well maybe more so when she started than years after she stopped competing but still). At the end, at 35:31 or so, she's literally walking around with Sheamus on her back.
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Post by sfvega on Nov 30, 2021 20:41:52 GMT -5
Maybe not an all-time great, but I think Finlay got way, way more out of what he was physically than he had any right to. Though nimble, he didn't move particularly well in WCW, and especially once he hit WWE. Not at all like his early days. He had the build of a 1950s wrestler, but was putting on good matches in the mid-2000s in his late 40s. A great overachiever who kept getting better while failing to be an even average athlete in his later years.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Nov 30, 2021 20:52:12 GMT -5
Cena's definitely a bit clunky when moving, but I don't think it can be denied that he's got freakish strength which is always going to be an asset in wrestling, which gives him a major edge over the likes of Punk and Becky. I wonder if Cena did the yoga and stuff early on, how it would have worked for him His stretching routine he did with Sheamus kicked Sheamus ass and that was just a warm up
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Post by Milkman Norm on Nov 30, 2021 21:01:42 GMT -5
Since wrestling is worked and since charisma, timing & psychology are natural abilities I consider this a flawed premise.
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Post by jason1980s on Nov 30, 2021 21:13:05 GMT -5
In my opinion, Sandman was a great wrestler. He was wildly over. That's all it takes to be great. People wanted to see Sandman. IMHO that's the pure essence of Pro Wrestling. And he basically looked like somebody's uncle wandering around drunk during the height of his career. Sandman is one of those guys who can get fans going just with a hand gesture. I am a huge Sandman fan. At one indy show I lost an expensive piece of wrestling memorabilia my friend owned, which took an hour of Jessica Fletcher-like investigation to get back-just so I could get one of Sandman's beer cans and take a picture of me and him, with me holding the can. In the time it took me to find the lose item, someone took the beer can and I got a speeding camera ticket rushing home late from the show that night. But it was all worth it because I got my picture with Sandman while I was holding his unopened beer can. Him walking through a liquor store (which Eric Simms posted a few months ago) is way more talented and entertaining that lots of newer age "wrestlers." Talent and entertainment value can not be taught. Athleticism and skill fo a craft can be taught but it's not always what people want to see.
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Post by EZ: Brainy Bae on Dec 1, 2021 0:11:44 GMT -5
One of the greatest wrestlers of his generation (and all-time) is a guy who is 5'8", has no impressive strength, no outstanding definition, everyday looks, no "high-flyer" bonafides despite his poor size, meh speed/explosiveness, no costume or gimmick, passable but unspectacular mic skills and doesn't maim himself to compensate for any of this. Sheer dedication to the craft and understanding its psychology/techniques is what he has. Bryan Danielson. Eh, I think you're underselling him a bit. For one, he has mma training, enough that he went to sessions with and roomed with guys who legitimately became UFC fighters. He's also had various degrees of the traits you said he lacks. There have been times where he had a very good pro wrestling look, he's cut above average to great promos, he"s been able to get a ton of heat in the proper environments. Love ya but could not disagree more. That or we’re speaking different languages when it comes to what naturally gifted is. The MMA training he did was in 2009, after he had already been wrestling professionally at a top level for years. Should go without saying that training, while better than nothing, is not indicative of prowess in and of itself (apart from the ability to pay for it). Ask Punk how those two years of world-class training did for him. Perhaps he’s being needlessly humble, but Bryan himself says the same regarding his natural athleticism; I don't get where he hasn't shown he's strong. Dude does a ton of mat wrestling that necessitates having strength. He started out doing a psuedo lucha-style and regularly does topes, top rope drop kicks, diving head butts, and other high flying moves. And, while he doesn't maim himself, he had to cut down on a very physical style that led to him missing years of his career. Even the most unimpressive wrestlers display some strength in what they do. Doesn’t mean it’s an outstanding or even notable feature of their profile, especially when comparing to other wrestlers, which is what I argue for the rest. I’ll give in when it comes to “not maiming himself” since he does have a willingness to go balls-to-the-wall and treat every performance like his last. What I meant by that though was in him not relying on “hardcore” spots or dangerous match types for notoriety. He’s definitely willing to go as far as it takes for the structure of the wrestling match, which again is more due to his technical/psychological understanding of the art form itself. I would also say he has excellent intensity, which for the most part is something you have rather than express. I would say that, while far from the Bryan of 2013 and or today, all of what I said was true by the time he was already a great wrestler in 2005/6. So much so that when he signed to WWE it was given as reasons why they wouldn’t use him well. It was the common take of the day, that he would be pigeonholed as a Benoit/Storm figure. It’s also why the underdog/“everyman” role was one that instantly clicked with the biggest audiences once they ran with it. To the extent he developed/displays those attributes more now speaks to how good he is and how hard he’s worked to improve his base at every step of his career. It’s a testament to him, not a slight. (As a parallel, it’s not unlike like what I’d say in regards to the “best NFL athletes” discussions I’ve had elsewhere. Of course Tom Brady is the best quarterback ever, and is a terrific athlete when compared to the average person. But compared as an athlete to a Darrell Green, a Randy Moss, or a Calvin Johnson, etc? t’s not the same, though he likewise did the most with the least)
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 1, 2021 0:18:26 GMT -5
Alexa Bliss was also a bodybuilder, she was recruited from the Arnold classic. She's small but I wouldn't e surprised if she was stronger than you would suspect from her size (well maybe more so when she started than years after she stopped competing but still). At the end, at 35:31 or so, she's literally walking around with Sheamus on her back. I stand corrected. I was just going by what she does in the ring and she never really does anything that requires lifting an opponent or anything that requires any strength. She has her Twisted Bliss finish and the standing moonsault which are both agility moves but other then that she has her ridiculous punch of doom and basic stuff that doesn't require any skill. I don't get why that if she's strong to lift and carry around a 265 pound man on her back that she doesn't do more power moves to try to expand her moveset more.
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Dec 1, 2021 0:50:32 GMT -5
Would Giant Baba count? Yes, he was much taller then the average Japanese wrestler, but he had such a odd physique, with such stick-thin arms and legs and a big body.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 1, 2021 1:07:53 GMT -5
At the end, at 35:31 or so, she's literally walking around with Sheamus on her back. I stand corrected. I was just going by what she does in the ring and she never really does anything that requires lifting an opponent or anything that requires any strength. She has her Twisted Bliss finish and the standing moonsault which are both agility moves but other then that she has her ridiculous punch of doom and basic stuff that doesn't require any skill. I don't get why that if she's strong to lift and carry around a 265 pound man on her back that she doesn't do more power moves to try to expand her moveset more. I mean part of that is likely due to her height. Andre the giant used to do all sorts of highly athletic moves but in the WWWF/WWF he would only do the general giant movesets. Kurt Angle in TNA would break out 450s and other high flying moves like every match for really no reason. the WWE like limiting their wrestlers movesets that fit around their gimmick. So they generally told Kurt not to do top rope spots because he's an olympic level technical wrestler and it doesn't make any sense for someone like that to be doing flips and such. Andre got just as much of a pop for doing the big clubbing blow as he ever did leaving his feet... and can basically wow the crowd just for existing that's generally waht they had him do (granted later years it was all Andre COULD do but still) Alexa's gimmick sans for the spooky stuff later has always pretty much been cheerleader... so she does the athletic flips and gymnastics to fit the gimmick but it's undeniable that she's also one of the shortest women on the roster... so her breaking out powerslams and big strong man stuff could cause a disconnect in people. I mean ... look how many complained when she was wrestling Charlotte, when Alexa was the Heel and was in control of the match...
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