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Post by Cyno on Dec 1, 2021 1:07:54 GMT -5
While Cena wasn't a naturally gifted wrestler, he was an athlete. He was an All-American football center in college. Granted, he went to a Division III school so it's not like he had any real chance at the NFL or anything, but he was no slouch.
Bryan Danielson also played football and did track & field in high school.
CM Punk is a good one because I don't think he did any sort of sports. He just got into pro wrestling via one of his buddies' backyard wrestling feds.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 1, 2021 1:25:43 GMT -5
I stand corrected. I was just going by what she does in the ring and she never really does anything that requires lifting an opponent or anything that requires any strength. She has her Twisted Bliss finish and the standing moonsault which are both agility moves but other then that she has her ridiculous punch of doom and basic stuff that doesn't require any skill. I don't get why that if she's strong to lift and carry around a 265 pound man on her back that she doesn't do more power moves to try to expand her moveset more. I mean part of that is likely due to her height. Andre the giant used to do all sorts of highly athletic moves but in the WWWF/WWF he would only do the general giant movesets. Kurt Angle in TNA would break out 450s and other high flying moves like every match for really no reason. the WWE like limiting their wrestlers movesets that fit around their gimmick. So they generally told Kurt not to do top rope spots because he's an olympic level technical wrestler and it doesn't make any sense for someone like that to be doing flips and such. Andre got just as much of a pop for doing the big clubbing blow as he ever did leaving his feet... and can basically wow the crowd just for existing that's generally waht they had him do (granted later years it was all Andre COULD do but still) Alexa's gimmick sans for the spooky stuff later has always pretty much been cheerleader... so she does the athletic flips and gymnastics to fit the gimmick but it's undeniable that she's also one of the shortest women on the roster... so her breaking out powerslams and big strong man stuff could cause a disconnect in people. I mean ... look how many complained when she was wrestling Charlotte, when Alexa was the Heel and was in control of the match... I get what you're saying but on the other hand wouldn't she also come off as a lot more believable? A lot of the problem with Alexa mainly during her heel run was it wasn't believable for her to be in control for long stretches and physically dominating all of these women who were bigger then her some by a substantial amount, due to how short and tiny she is. However if she would showcase her strength and do powerslams and stuff like that it would be "wow well she might tiny but she's strong AF" where you could buy her more. It's kind of like Ivy Nile in NXT currently. Granted she's more muscular then Alexa is but height wise she's about the same I would say. Difference is they have her do power moves and as a result she comes off as very believable threat despite proably barely being over 5 foot. Like in that Charlotte match for instance they could play it up like yeah Charlotte is a lot bigger then Alexa but Alexa is just as strong and if she can get underneath her and do high impact power moves on her then Charlotte could be in trouble. However instead we got the ridiculous visual of her overpowering Charlotte from a vertical base with a choke hold despite being nearly a foot shorter. Again though if they had showcased her strength by having do more impressive things then that would've been a little easier to buy even though it still wouldn't have made sense from a leverage stand point with Charlotte being so much taller.
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Post by HisRoyalGreeness on Dec 1, 2021 13:50:41 GMT -5
I’m surprised nobody has said Kevin Owens yet. Maybe I’m coming at this from the wrong angle but to my knowledge he has no athletic background whatsoever, doesn’t appear to have a heavy gym routine, but damned if he can’t go and do things someone of his size has no business doing. I also feel like Lawler belongs in this category. He admittedly doesn’t have much athletic background, hardly worked out, but more than made up for it in ring psychology.
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Post by Woo on Dec 1, 2021 14:45:05 GMT -5
Jake Roberts would be a good example. Unathletic and didn't have a good physique but had great psychology, mic skills, and charisma. I guess currently maybe Becky Lynch. I'm not sure if she would qualify though since unlike the others that have been mentioned so far she does have a marketable look going for her in that she's a very pretty woman who looks very athletic even though she really isn't. However she clearly isn't a natural athlete by any means compared to a lot of the other women and comes off as pretty lead footed when wrestling yet is considered by most to be a good to great wrestler who has been very successful thanks to scoring high in the non athletic intangibles (charisma, mic skills, psychology, intensity). However again I don't really fully get the question in that I'm not sure if it's just not being a good athlete and yet being good or if it's also not having a good look to you plus not being athletic and being a great wrestler. Nah Becky is a great athlete. She wrestled technical masterpieces on the indies and would have wrestled a 60 minute ironwoman match before he almost career ending injury. You have to be a good athlete to do that.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 1, 2021 15:00:18 GMT -5
To be honest I never thought Punk came off that unathletic to me. Maybe he never had the best looking version of a move, but he’s a great enough actor to hold up his end of a great match and he always keeps his timing on point.
Giant Baba in his prime, his condition was damn good and he was still entertaining even as he aged in spite of his size and kinda gangly frame. But some of the fights he had with dudes like Race and Fritz Von Erich, those were wars they put on.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 1, 2021 15:43:54 GMT -5
I’m surprised nobody has said Kevin Owens yet. Maybe I’m coming at this from the wrong angle but to my knowledge he has no athletic background whatsoever, doesn’t appear to have a heavy gym routine, but damned if he can’t go and do things someone of his size has no business doing. ...which means he must be athletically gifted, right? I dunno, I'm just really confused by this whole premise.
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 1, 2021 16:10:57 GMT -5
Jerry Lawler exemplifies this IMO.
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Post by HisRoyalGreeness on Dec 1, 2021 16:15:15 GMT -5
I’m surprised nobody has said Kevin Owens yet. Maybe I’m coming at this from the wrong angle but to my knowledge he has no athletic background whatsoever, doesn’t appear to have a heavy gym routine, but damned if he can’t go and do things someone of his size has no business doing. ...which means he must be athletically gifted, right? I dunno, I'm just really confused by this whole premise. Honestly, so am I.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 1, 2021 16:18:03 GMT -5
Jake Roberts would be a good example. Unathletic and didn't have a good physique but had great psychology, mic skills, and charisma. I guess currently maybe Becky Lynch. I'm not sure if she would qualify though since unlike the others that have been mentioned so far she does have a marketable look going for her in that she's a very pretty woman who looks very athletic even though she really isn't. However she clearly isn't a natural athlete by any means compared to a lot of the other women and comes off as pretty lead footed when wrestling yet is considered by most to be a good to great wrestler who has been very successful thanks to scoring high in the non athletic intangibles (charisma, mic skills, psychology, intensity). However again I don't really fully get the question in that I'm not sure if it's just not being a good athlete and yet being good or if it's also not having a good look to you plus not being athletic and being a great wrestler. Nah Becky is a great athlete. She wrestled technical masterpieces on the indies and would have wrestled a 60 minute ironwoman match before he almost career ending injury. You have to be a good athlete to do that. I'm not saying she's not athletic at all. I think pretty much every wrestler has to have some athletic ability. I meant more in pro wrestling standards and in comparison to her peers where in that case Becky is legging behind a bit. Like I would say Becky is a better athlete then the average person in that she has a fit athletic build, is in really good shape, and she has done things especially when she was younger that would definitely require athletic ability (that spot where she would bridge up to her feet out of a pin attempt comes to mind). However saying she's a "great athlete" is probably stretching it a bit. When you watch her in the ring it's kind of obvious as she runs pretty slow and whenever she comes off the top rope she gets very little distance and pretty much just drops like a stone.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 1, 2021 18:26:02 GMT -5
I’m surprised nobody has said Kevin Owens yet. Maybe I’m coming at this from the wrong angle but to my knowledge he has no athletic background whatsoever, doesn’t appear to have a heavy gym routine, but damned if he can’t go and do things someone of his size has no business doing. ...which means he must be athletically gifted, right? I dunno, I'm just really confused by this whole premise. Yeah, Kevin Owens is extremely athletic. Some people are confused. Like me for this topic is about people like Punk, Becky who would look awkward running in a straight line but can put wrestling moves together pretty well.
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Post by BorneAgain on Dec 1, 2021 18:54:57 GMT -5
Part of the issue is that there's arguably three categories this concept could apply to:
-A wrestler that's rarely athletic in matches, but the combination of charisma (Sid) and/or a genius ability to work a match (Lawlwer) brought them great success.
-A wrestler that seemingly doesn't have an athletic physique or even history with high tier sports, but ended up being surprisingly mobile and dynamic to the point where their shape was often irrelevant (Kevin Owens, Big Boss Man).
-Wrestlers with okay physiques, but questionable athletic conditioning of any sort that nonetheless ended up becoming good and pulling off something interesting stuff movewise by sheer force of will (CM Punk, DDP).
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Post by tafkaga on Dec 2, 2021 9:11:40 GMT -5
...which means he must be athletically gifted, right? I dunno, I'm just really confused by this whole premise. Yeah, Kevin Owens is extremely athletic. Some people are confused. Like me for this topic is about people like Punk, Becky who would look awkward running in a straight line but can put wrestling moves together pretty well. Except Mick Foley looking like Quasimodo is the OP's example so I dunno what him looking like Quasimodo has to do with an unathletic person becoming a good worker. If the example was Mick Foley being unathletic, it would be more clear.
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 2, 2021 9:39:21 GMT -5
Jerry Lawler exemplifies this IMO. Excellent example, really. He wasn't an athlete, particularly, outside of stupidly playing football in his yard once he was getting pushed and broke a leg, leading to Jimmy Hart cutting a promo on him and Lawler "accidentally" breaking his jaw. He wasn't a bodybuilder or ceritfied badass, and basically benefited in part by happening to grow body hair that made him look more tough than he really was. It's basically like he had everything that could be immediately applied to wrestling, and like pretty much nothing extra, outside of also being a good artist.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 2, 2021 11:13:45 GMT -5
Jerry Lawler exemplifies this IMO. Excellent example, really. He wasn't an athlete, particularly, outside of stupidly playing football in his yard once he was getting pushed and broke a leg, leading to Jimmy Hart cutting a promo on him and Lawler "accidentally" breaking his jaw. He wasn't a bodybuilder or ceritfied badass, and basically benefited in part by happening to grow body hair that made him look more tough than he really was. It's basically like he had everything that could be immediately applied to wrestling, and like pretty much nothing extra, outside of also being a good artist. I believe the story is he started as a DJ and won some contest and got trained on the fly, then he got good and adopted the King name, right?
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Post by wendytorrancev1 on Dec 2, 2021 11:20:34 GMT -5
Kevin Owens gets my vote.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Dec 2, 2021 11:26:45 GMT -5
Giant Baba in his prime, his condition was damn good and he was still entertaining even as he aged in spite of his size and kinda gangly frame. But some of the fights he had with dudes like Race and Fritz Von Erich, those were wars they put on. Baba is probably one of the most unfairly maligned wrestlers in terms of his ability in the ring because a lot of people are only really familiar with his stuff from the eighties and nineties when was completely broken down. He was a very good worker in the sixties and seventies, and even had some pretty good technical matches with blokes like the Destroyer. Not on the level of Inoki but he could more than hold his own before injuries and his general health let him down.
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Post by Aceorton on Dec 2, 2021 13:43:53 GMT -5
Jerry Lawler exemplifies this IMO. I'll add his cousin to the conversation, too. The Honky Tonk Man was about as basic as they come in terms of physical wrestling ability, especially on offense, and had a dad bod even in his prime. But he could still push himself to above-average matches in terms of entertainment value, and he got heat like nobody's business.
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 2, 2021 18:14:42 GMT -5
Giant Baba in his prime, his condition was damn good and he was still entertaining even as he aged in spite of his size and kinda gangly frame. But some of the fights he had with dudes like Race and Fritz Von Erich, those were wars they put on. Baba is probably one of the most unfairly maligned wrestlers in terms of his ability in the ring because a lot of people are only really familiar with his stuff from the eighties and nineties when was completely broken down. He was a very good worker in the sixties and seventies, and even had some pretty good technical matches with blokes like the Destroyer. Not on the level of Inoki but he could more than hold his own before injuries and his general health let him down. I think it also frankly didn't help that he just looks awkward, with his thin arms and legs and tree stump torso.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 2, 2021 18:50:34 GMT -5
Excellent example, really. He wasn't an athlete, particularly, outside of stupidly playing football in his yard once he was getting pushed and broke a leg, leading to Jimmy Hart cutting a promo on him and Lawler "accidentally" breaking his jaw. He wasn't a bodybuilder or ceritfied badass, and basically benefited in part by happening to grow body hair that made him look more tough than he really was. It's basically like he had everything that could be immediately applied to wrestling, and like pretty much nothing extra, outside of also being a good artist. I believe the story is he started as a DJ and won some contest and got trained on the fly, then he got good and adopted the King name, right? Yeah, that is pretty much the gist He was a DJ and gave free publicity for lessons or something like that. He got the King gimmick due to someone (I forgot the wrestler name) was leaving the territory and gave King the crown to use until he got back because he wasn't going to need it overseas and didn't want extra luggage. I think the wrestler died or never came back for it and he started running with it He talked about it on Broken Skull Sessions
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 2, 2021 19:10:51 GMT -5
Baba is probably one of the most unfairly maligned wrestlers in terms of his ability in the ring because a lot of people are only really familiar with his stuff from the eighties and nineties when was completely broken down. He was a very good worker in the sixties and seventies, and even had some pretty good technical matches with blokes like the Destroyer. Not on the level of Inoki but he could more than hold his own before injuries and his general health let him down. I think it also frankly didn't help that he just looks awkward, with his thin arms and legs and tree stump torso. Some of that with his biceps was apparently nerve damage, I heard.
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