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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 28, 2021 23:26:43 GMT -5
It just seems like they can never book a babyfaces star's right. Bayley was the one time they got it right. Otherwise it's either the Charlotte route where they get everything right from the start where no one can relate to her and there's nothing about her to rally behind since she's never had to overcome anything, the Liv Morgan route where they NEVER win anything and it's super hard to care, or the Becky Lynch route where they eventually break through after a grind BUT only after they turn heel. As for Cora it's still kind of early to tell. I'm not against pushing her as there's definitely potential there. I agree the rolup finishes aren't doing her any favors. They aren't making her look like a valiant face. They are just making her look lucky. The key is they need to take the middle ground which is something they for whatever reason can never comprehend. They definitely shouldn't put the title on her any time soon but they shouldn't just beat her into dirt either. I think the best way to go is to put her into a feud outside the title picture where she goes over. Maybe have Raquel turn heel on her and then do a program with the two of them. Raquel beats down and bullies Cora for a while but in the blow off match Cora stands up to her and beats her. It's not hard. They make it hard but it shouldn't be. This is just me speculating, but it also feels like she isn't going to get over by facing women like Io either, who is way too over. Cora would be a fine mid to lower midcard babyface, but that's about it. This match tonight pretty much showed why trying to push Cora as the top babyface isn't going to work. If the vast majority of your audience is rooting for Io over Cora, that should be setting off alarm bells. I don't know if that should be anything to go by as far as her not ever getting over as a top face. Io is the most over woman on the show. Not getting cheered over her as a rookie shouldn't be a death knell. Also the solution to that is simple. Just don't book her against faces like Io who are going to out pop her. Just do what I suggested and put her against a heel nobody likes that much. I will say though that the crowd reactions to her in general haven't been that good. With the "you can't skate" chants and her getting "what" chants last week. I don't really get it as you would think she would be someone they would like in that she's a young cute girl who you think the guys would be into and has a hip gimmick that you would think would appeal to the younger crowd. However it's just not clicking for whatever reason. A lot of the times the solution to problems like that if they persist is to do a heel turn but with her it's not that simple in that I don't really know if she's really suited to work heel.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 28, 2021 23:31:54 GMT -5
Her character might not be helping either. It to her credit, she’s TRYING her best to make it work. But the whole gimmick feels so much like well, old out of touch men trying to book a “hip and cool youngster.”
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gl83
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Post by gl83 on Dec 28, 2021 23:58:26 GMT -5
This is just me speculating, but it also feels like she isn't going to get over by facing women like Io either, who is way too over. Cora would be a fine mid to lower midcard babyface, but that's about it. This match tonight pretty much showed why trying to push Cora as the top babyface isn't going to work. If the vast majority of your audience is rooting for Io over Cora, that should be setting off alarm bells. I don't know if that should be anything to go by as far as her not ever getting over as a top face. Io is the most over woman on the show. Not getting cheered over her as a rookie shouldn't be a death knell. Also the solution to that is simple. Just don't book her against faces like Io who are going to out pop her. Just do what I suggested and put her against a heel nobody likes that much. I will say though that the crowd reactions to her in general haven't been that good. With the "you can't skate" chants and her getting "what" chants last week. I don't really get it as you would think she would be someone they would like in that she's a young cute girl who you think the guys would be into and has a hip gimmick that you would think would appeal to the younger crowd. However it's just not clicking for whatever reason. A lot of the times the solution to problems like that if they persist is to do a heel turn but with her it's not that simple in that I don't really know if she's really suited to work heel. I mean a couple weeks ago, the same thing happened in Cora's match against Dakota Kai. Dakota was the obvious, clear-cut Heel, but she was getting cheered. Girls like Io, KLR, Dakota have built up a strong connection with the fans over the course of years, so having Cora face them probably doesn't help. Like the only Heels that Cora might get cheered against might be the other 2.0 girls like Ivy Niles or Elektra Lopez. Even Toxic Attraction might be more over than her.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 29, 2021 0:13:12 GMT -5
I don't know if that should be anything to go by as far as her not ever getting over as a top face. Io is the most over woman on the show. Not getting cheered over her as a rookie shouldn't be a death knell. Also the solution to that is simple. Just don't book her against faces like Io who are going to out pop her. Just do what I suggested and put her against a heel nobody likes that much. I will say though that the crowd reactions to her in general haven't been that good. With the "you can't skate" chants and her getting "what" chants last week. I don't really get it as you would think she would be someone they would like in that she's a young cute girl who you think the guys would be into and has a hip gimmick that you would think would appeal to the younger crowd. However it's just not clicking for whatever reason. A lot of the times the solution to problems like that if they persist is to do a heel turn but with her it's not that simple in that I don't really know if she's really suited to work heel. I mean a couple weeks ago, the same thing happened in Cora's match against Dakota Kai. Dakota was the obvious, clear-cut Heel, but she was getting cheered. Girls like Io, KLR, Dakota have built up a strong connection with the fans over the course of years, so having Cora face them probably doesn't help. Like the only Heels that Cora might get cheered against might be the other 2.0 girls like Ivy Niles or Elektra Lopez. Even Toxic Attraction might be more over than her. I guess they could turn KLR back heel. She's a better heel anyways and the crowd doesn't seem to be that into her. Also she's a very good and experienced worker who Cora could probably learn from. I suggested Raquel earlier but now that I think about I don't know if that would work as I could see Raquel beating her down and powerbombing her in an attempt to get sympathy on Cora and the crowd just chanting "one more time". Ivy is more of a cool badass type heel (at least I think she's a heel as they seem to turn Diamond Mine back and forth every week) so I could see the fans siding more with her over Cora. Even Toxic Attraction I'm not sure as both Mandy and Gigi get chants quite a bit.
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gl83
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Post by gl83 on Dec 29, 2021 11:07:40 GMT -5
I mean a couple weeks ago, the same thing happened in Cora's match against Dakota Kai. Dakota was the obvious, clear-cut Heel, but she was getting cheered. Girls like Io, KLR, Dakota have built up a strong connection with the fans over the course of years, so having Cora face them probably doesn't help. Like the only Heels that Cora might get cheered against might be the other 2.0 girls like Ivy Niles or Elektra Lopez. Even Toxic Attraction might be more over than her. I guess they could turn KLR back heel. She's a better heel anyways and the crowd doesn't seem to be that into her. Also she's a very good and experienced worker who Cora could probably learn from. I suggested Raquel earlier but now that I think about I don't know if that would work as I could see Raquel beating her down and powerbombing her in an attempt to get sympathy on Cora and the crowd just chanting "one more time". Ivy is more of a cool badass type heel (at least I think she's a heel as they seem to turn Diamond Mine back and forth every week) so I could see the fans siding more with her over Cora. Even Toxic Attraction I'm not sure as both Mandy and Gigi get chants quite a bit. That's the tricky thing about Cora right now is that of all the major players in the women's division, she's probably one of the least over. Many of the Faces would probably get cheered over her if she faced off against them and even a good portion of the Heels would as well. Like they're giving her this big push while she is still pretty green and before building up any sort of fan connection. It's basically the same disastrous formula that caused many fans to turn on MSK.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 29, 2021 11:14:33 GMT -5
She feels like, along with Bronn, the most obvious case of “they want to focus on young stars now” which is allegedly what the rebrand was about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 11:26:29 GMT -5
I think Cora would be more suited to going after those womens tag titles quite frankly and use that to flesh out her personality etc because right now she is not suited to having this division revolve around her as its central piece.
After next week IMO pair her with KLR as a team and let Io go after Mandy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2021 19:04:21 GMT -5
I'd send KLR up to the main roster to team with Doudrop and send someone like Nattie down to work with the younger women.
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gl83
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Post by gl83 on Dec 30, 2021 1:05:37 GMT -5
Honestly I think there's a discussion to be had here about if Cora Jade is getting too much too quickly. I saw it posted on reddit, but someone said that it feels like WWE is trying to build up a new version of Bayley with her, but not realizing that there needs to be some actual adversity. And that it would actually help if she lost a bit more often, and almost all of her wins are actual clean pins that aren't flukes or rollups. Yeah, it does feel like they want to build Cora as the ultimate underdog ala Bayley. Difference is that, Bayley built her popularity as this loveable underdog by putting up these good fights in big matches only to come up short in the end(vs AJ Lee for the Divas title; vs Charlotte for the NXT Women's title; Fatal 4-Way vs Charlotte/Sasha Banks/Becky Lynch for the NXT Women's title) She was someone who endured years of hardship, suffered numerous setbacks and was on the receiving end of several betrayals(getting stabbed in the back by Charlotte; getting stabbed in the back by Becky Lynch; getting stabbed in the back by Emma), but in the end would persevere and continue fighting. All this while never compromising who she was or changing anything about her to get ahead. Compare that to Cora Jade, who has only suffered 1 loss in her entire NXT 2.0 run, who got the decisive win for her WarGames team and is getting pushed for a title match. All of this 3 months into her career. Right now, Cora does not have that sympathy factor or that fan connection. She's suppose to be an underdog, but her booking does not reflect that.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Dec 30, 2021 1:23:31 GMT -5
Honestly I think there's a discussion to be had here about if Cora Jade is getting too much too quickly. I saw it posted on reddit, but someone said that it feels like WWE is trying to build up a new version of Bayley with her, but not realizing that there needs to be some actual adversity. And that it would actually help if she lost a bit more often, and almost all of her wins are actual clean pins that aren't flukes or rollups. Yeah, it does feel like they want to build Cora as the ultimate underdog ala Bayley. Difference is that, Bayley built her popularity as this loveable underdog by putting up these good fights in big matches only to come up short in the end(vs AJ Lee for the Divas title; vs Charlotte for the NXT Women's title; Fatal 4-Way vs Charlotte/Sasha Banks/Becky Lynch for the NXT Women's title) She was someone who endured years of hardship, suffered numerous setbacks and was on the receiving end of several betrayals(getting stabbed in the back by Charlotte; getting stabbed in the back by Becky Lynch; getting stabbed in the back by Emma), but in the end would persevere and continue fighting. All this while never compromising who she was or changing anything about her to get ahead. Compare that to Cora Jade, who has only suffered 1 loss in her entire NXT 2.0 run, who got the decisive win for her WarGames team and is getting pushed for a title match. All of this 3 months into her career. Right now, Cora does not have that sympathy factor or that fan connection. She's suppose to be an underdog, but her booking does not reflect that. I think today’s jaded WWE fan is too far burned now to have the patience, and honestly the empathy, to stay with a Bayley-esque underdog journey for Jade for literally years. Part of me is still surprised they stuck with Bayley for it.
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Post by sunnytaker on Dec 30, 2021 8:28:41 GMT -5
but cora is a 2.0 star, that automatically makes her better than everyone from the black and gold era!
other than Bron i don;t really see anyone from the 2.0 side that makes me say, "yeah there's a star in the making and is completely believable at coming in and taking out the top holdovers from 1.0" carmelo hayes is closest though of the rest though.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 30, 2021 9:40:02 GMT -5
There was another younger woman that they had that they could have pushed. And she was more polished and “ready” than Cora Jade is.
Her name was Toni Storm, yet they dropped the ball hard with her.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 30, 2021 9:56:08 GMT -5
Yeah, it does feel like they want to build Cora as the ultimate underdog ala Bayley. Difference is that, Bayley built her popularity as this loveable underdog by putting up these good fights in big matches only to come up short in the end(vs AJ Lee for the Divas title; vs Charlotte for the NXT Women's title; Fatal 4-Way vs Charlotte/Sasha Banks/Becky Lynch for the NXT Women's title) She was someone who endured years of hardship, suffered numerous setbacks and was on the receiving end of several betrayals(getting stabbed in the back by Charlotte; getting stabbed in the back by Becky Lynch; getting stabbed in the back by Emma), but in the end would persevere and continue fighting. All this while never compromising who she was or changing anything about her to get ahead. Compare that to Cora Jade, who has only suffered 1 loss in her entire NXT 2.0 run, who got the decisive win for her WarGames team and is getting pushed for a title match. All of this 3 months into her career. Right now, Cora does not have that sympathy factor or that fan connection. She's suppose to be an underdog, but her booking does not reflect that. I think today’s jaded WWE fan is too far burned now to have the patience, and honestly the empathy, to stay with a Bayley-esque underdog journey for Jade for literally years. Part of me is still surprised they stuck with Bayley for it. With Bayley, a lot of it was timing, but also, she was so over that Becky, Charlotte, and especially Sasha got over basically by interacting with her. She was far and away the most popular out of the four, so I think people were willing to ride it out more. With Cora, I am fine with her build right now just since I figure the idea is to set her up to face Mandy and for Mandy to beat her, which, that's fine. She mainly just needs some experience and time.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 30, 2021 10:45:49 GMT -5
Her character might not be helping either. It to her credit, she’s TRYING her best to make it work. But the whole gimmick feels so much like well, old out of touch men trying to book a “hip and cool youngster.” I mentioned it in another thread but Bryan Alvarez talked about this a week or 2 ago. They're trying to make her a skateboard character but so far she has shown no ability to skate. When you have Darby Allin who is a legit pro skateboarder on a competing show it makes it tougher to actually have Cora appeal to that demo... and she has no other distinguishing quality other than has a skateboard. But onto the finish, the issue that continues to plague the WWE is that they think everybody can get over as a face being a jerk because Austin, Rock, and Cena all got insanely over for that. I was listening to a Fightful Podcast and SRS pointed out that a heel promo Bryan Danielson cut last week on Hangman was almost word for word the type of promo WWE had their faces cut. That shows the issue with creative in a nutshell
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 30, 2021 10:47:24 GMT -5
Her “Elayna Black” persona actually was kind of cool, and it stood out a bit.
And yes, WWE books their babyfaces to be inexplicable jerks and douche bags A LOT!!! And the ones that are more “pure” so to speak, like Nikki ASH for example, gets booked like crap and treated like jokes and losers.
I really think it’s the warped world view of Vince and co bleeding into the booking.
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