Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 12:11:06 GMT -5
I haven't read this whole thread, so excuse me if I repeat anything, but as a black wrestling fan this shit upset me quite a bit. The microaggression of "well, I didn't re-sign her because she wasn't a good wrestler" followed by an earnest advertisement for the show really just puts the whole thing over the top. Such a throwaway line that proves how gotten to he is about all this. My biggest problem is that it really paints Swole as not being good enough to have a job. When has he said stuff like that before? Especially after a talent went out of their way to say that there were no hard feelings and the exit interview ended on solid terms. Khan and the office presumably heard all of this from Swole directly already, so him responding in this way makes it seem like all he cares about is the public perception of the company, and not about the mission statement the company laid out from the beginning. That's a terrible thing to hear from an audience's perspective. The fact that he can't see that is so absurd. Now any of the black fans that are concerned about this won't be able to watch the show in the same way. I liked seeing the community have Swole's back, and DLock & Lio be very vocal about their distaste for the comment, but everyone in the company making Britt think her shit doesn't stink is also a part of the problem (I saw her RTing what Tony said...wtf). I'm not gonna get too far into that, but I don't want to act like that doesn't bother me either. I don't know, this sucks. Wrestling and Twitter are the two worst things for each other and these idiots keep running to the bird app to flaunt their thin skin. I got more to say, but I'm too tired to even say it. And I'm probably repeating stuff that's been said 100 times in here anyway. Basically, Tony should've just sat there and ate his food. Change needs to happen and it needs to happen quickly. Perfectly summed up.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,332
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jan 1, 2022 12:50:54 GMT -5
youtu.be/C40p6FH9oC4Shawn Dean is having a live discussion about this. Essentially doing damage control for what Tony Khan did.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 13:06:07 GMT -5
I personally don’t think either side comes out looking good in all of this. I think it’s pretty clear that a conversation was had behind closed doors, with the impression left that Swole’s departure from the company was amicable, but she still dropped a public grenade that cast some very serious aspersions on the company. From everything that’s come out since, I don’t think that grenade was thrown with entirely good intentions.
But, Tony Khan is the owner of a multi-million dollar company that employs hundreds of people. Former employees are going to criticize the company they used to work for. It happens every day in every walk of life. And, in this instance, there’s some merit to the criticism. It’s great that TK is such an involved and approachable owner in a lot of ways, but he’s still the owner. There was absolutely no reason to come out and publicly drag a former employee through the mud like he did. She’s the disgruntled former employee who just lost her job, he’s the billionaire owner of the company. It just comes across as so petty to engage like he did. He’s in for a rude awakening if he thinks that everyone who ever walks in the door to work for AEW is going to think it’s the greatest company in the world and never have a negative thing to say about it.
Amidst all of the commentary that’s gone on around this I agree with the sentiments of two people most. 1) Like Hobbs said, if you have a problem pick up the phone. These are not disputes that need to be held publicly, because the message gets lost when the perception is that it’s only being done for publicity. 2) Like Lio said, TK really needs to apologize and acknowledge that he mishandled this situation. If I were working for AEW right now I would be very uncomfortable with the fact that the owner of the company took a potshot at a former coworker’s wrestling ability just because she stated issues and criticisms she had while working there.
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
Leslie needs to butt out for fear of receiving The Bunghole Buster
Posts: 32,412
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Post by Perd on Jan 1, 2022 13:18:15 GMT -5
I think, if you’re TK, you can acknowledge your company’s diversity issues, while maintaining that it’s not intentional. And I think most people would agree. AEW does have a diversity problem, particularly at the top of the card. But they probably aren’t willfully discriminating against PoC. But jut because it may not be intentional, doesn’t mean that it’s not an issue. It’s not like Swole is blowing the lid off some huge revelation. This subject has been discussed on this very forum. In short; acknowledge the problem and fix it.
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Clutchhausen
Don Corleone
Darby deserves better.
Posts: 1,733
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Post by Clutchhausen on Jan 1, 2022 13:22:11 GMT -5
TIL Tay Conti is white.
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Post by CeilingFan on Jan 1, 2022 13:31:58 GMT -5
White Hispanics have also suffered discrimination.
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Post by Clawley Race on Jan 1, 2022 13:32:29 GMT -5
I personally don’t think either side comes out looking good in all of this. I think it’s pretty clear that a conversation was had behind closed doors, with the impression left that Swole’s departure from the company was amicable, but she still dropped a public grenade that cast some very serious aspersions on the company. From everything that’s come out since, I don’t think that grenade was thrown with entirely good intentions. But, Tony Khan is the owner of a multi-million dollar company that employs hundreds of people. Former employees are going to criticize the company they used to work for. It happens every day in every walk of life. And, in this instance, there’s some merit to the criticism. It’s great that TK is such an involved and approachable owner in a lot of ways, but he’s still the owner. There was absolutely no reason to come out and publicly drag a former employee through the mud like he did. She’s the disgruntled former employee who just lost her job, he’s the billionaire owner of the company. It just comes across as so petty to engage like he did. He’s in for a rude awakening if he thinks that everyone who ever walks in the door to work for AEW is going to think it’s the greatest company in the world and never have a negative thing to say about it. Amidst all of the commentary that’s gone on around this I agree with the sentiments of two people most. 1) Like Hobbs said, if you have a problem pick up the phone. These are not disputes that need to be held publicly, because the message gets lost when the perception is that it’s only being done for publicity. 2) Like Lio said, TK really needs to apologize and acknowledge that he mishandled this situation. If I were working for AEW right now I would be very uncomfortable with the fact that the owner of the company took a potshot at a former coworker’s wrestling ability just because she stated issues and criticisms she had while working there. 10/10. I don't feel like the former employee had good intentions in saying what they said...but the criticisms are valid. Comparing to WWE is weird to me, because it has seemed to me like they employee certain people from certain countries just to say they have a wrestler from that area. There doesn't seem to be any good will behind anything they do. They seem to have axactly ONE person from everywhere, and have for a long time.
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booty
Mike the Goon
Posts: 45
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Post by booty on Jan 1, 2022 13:34:02 GMT -5
I personally don’t think either side comes out looking good in all of this. I think it’s pretty clear that a conversation was had behind closed doors, with the impression left that Swole’s departure from the company was amicable, but she still dropped a public grenade that cast some very serious aspersions on the company. From everything that’s come out since, I don’t think that grenade was thrown with entirely good intentions. But, Tony Khan is the owner of a multi-million dollar company that employs hundreds of people. Former employees are going to criticize the company they used to work for. It happens every day in every walk of life. And, in this instance, there’s some merit to the criticism. It’s great that TK is such an involved and approachable owner in a lot of ways, but he’s still the owner. There was absolutely no reason to come out and publicly drag a former employee through the mud like he did. She’s the disgruntled former employee who just lost her job, he’s the billionaire owner of the company. It just comes across as so petty to engage like he did. He’s in for a rude awakening if he thinks that everyone who ever walks in the door to work for AEW is going to think it’s the greatest company in the world and never have a negative thing to say about it. Amidst all of the commentary that’s gone on around this I agree with the sentiments of two people most. 1) Like Hobbs said, if you have a problem pick up the phone. These are not disputes that need to be held publicly, because the message gets lost when the perception is that it’s only being done for publicity. 2) Like Lio said, TK really needs to apologize and acknowledge that he mishandled this situation. If I were working for AEW right now I would be very uncomfortable with the fact that the owner of the company took a potshot at a former coworker’s wrestling ability just because she stated issues and criticisms she had while working there. This captures my thoughts about the whole thing. Well put.
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ghost
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,981
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Post by ghost on Jan 1, 2022 13:36:55 GMT -5
Being awake and just catching up on everything it does look like this is becoming very much black wrestlers vs other poc for wrestlers which I thought it may but still disappointing To be honest, that's inevitable. POC who are not black are also facing an uphill battle in a white dominated world like wrestling, so when "lack of diversity" is a complaint when it really only refers to one specific race (in this instance), it is going to lead to other POC who have a different perspective to react differently. Doesn't make it wrong or right, just different. Just like Swole's original complaint is not wrong. She didn't say Khan/AEW were racist, just that they should do better with POC in her opinion, and that's completely fair. However, other POC who work within the company may feel differently. If the expectation was that everyone would support Swole and start ragging on Khan, then that's a bit unrealistic. Someone asked for a solution to this issue, and it's simple; don't try to force anything. Fans aren't stupid (well, most of them aren't). If something is being pushed heavily due to nepotism, virtue signaling, or any other reason that feels without merit, then they'll see right through it and it's only going to hurt the performer. Cody is the whitest white guy who ever whited, and fans see through his BS. If Scorpio Sky (for example) is suddenly beating everybody while the crowd reactions don't warrant it, then it would only hurt Sky in the long run. Give organic screen time to talent. The cream will always rise to the top. For example, if Ricky Starks is not a main event talent within 2 years, then there's a problem. Dude has everything to be a star. They just have to figure out to work around the talent logjam and get the premier young talent more shine.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,332
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jan 1, 2022 13:37:02 GMT -5
White Hispanics have also suffered discrimination. True, but it is different than the what black Hispanics face.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 1, 2022 13:37:28 GMT -5
Thing that really jumps out to me is how Swole's two complaints are strongly related to one another. If there's very little direction, if you have no interest in actually booking anything for 95% of your roster at any given time, then things'll settle and stagnate in predictable patterns. The few active decisions you do make will have big ripples, because they're not as colorblind as you think they are.
And this is when you genuinely just have the best of intentions, which is not even true, here! AEW thinks they prioritize good wrestling, which is fine. But they seem deliberately ignorant that a not-too-small chunk of the fans who form what their ongoing definition of "good wrestling" means are gamergatey dicks, and the gamergatey dickness influences things. And AEW has always seemed strangely preoccupied with the opinions of these kinds of fans, because they're super-loyal and super-loud and... well, they're seen as True Real Wrestling Fans. So their whims dictate a lot of the "meritocracy" of who gets focused on.
AEW could fix a lot of these problems by just booking more. Almost their entire roster is in a rut. I keep seeing people insisting that, like, one day John Silver's gonna get some big push, but no he absolutely won't. That would take effort, that would take someone deciding to do that, and AEW makes very very few decisions like that. And of course this is gonna just embed racist and sexist patterns even more rigidly.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 1, 2022 13:37:32 GMT -5
I personally don’t think either side comes out looking good in all of this. I think it’s pretty clear that a conversation was had behind closed doors, with the impression left that Swole’s departure from the company was amicable, but she still dropped a public grenade that cast some very serious aspersions on the company. From everything that’s come out since, I don’t think that grenade was thrown with entirely good intentions. But, Tony Khan is the owner of a multi-million dollar company that employs hundreds of people. Former employees are going to criticize the company they used to work for. It happens every day in every walk of life. And, in this instance, there’s some merit to the criticism. It’s great that TK is such an involved and approachable owner in a lot of ways, but he’s still the owner. There was absolutely no reason to come out and publicly drag a former employee through the mud like he did. She’s the disgruntled former employee who just lost her job, he’s the billionaire owner of the company. It just comes across as so petty to engage like he did. He’s in for a rude awakening if he thinks that everyone who ever walks in the door to work for AEW is going to think it’s the greatest company in the world and never have a negative thing to say about it. Amidst all of the commentary that’s gone on around this I agree with the sentiments of two people most. 1) Like Hobbs said, if you have a problem pick up the phone. These are not disputes that need to be held publicly, because the message gets lost when the perception is that it’s only being done for publicity. 2) Like Lio said, TK really needs to apologize and acknowledge that he mishandled this situation. If I were working for AEW right now I would be very uncomfortable with the fact that the owner of the company took a potshot at a former coworker’s wrestling ability just because she stated issues and criticisms she had while working there. 10/10. I don't feel like the former employee had good intentions in saying what they said...but the criticisms are valid. Comparing to WWE is weird to me, because it has seemed to me like they employee certain people from certain countries just to say they have a wrestler from that area. There doesn't seem to be any good will behind anything they do. They seem to have axactly ONE person from everywhere, and have for a long time.Huh? Please provide examples?
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,332
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jan 1, 2022 13:43:40 GMT -5
10/10. I don't feel like the former employee had good intentions in saying what they said...but the criticisms are valid. Comparing to WWE is weird to me, because it has seemed to me like they employee certain people from certain countries just to say they have a wrestler from that area. There doesn't seem to be any good will behind anything they do. They seem to have axactly ONE person from everywhere, and have for a long time.Huh? Please provide examples? I think he's talking about non-black POCs. There are exceptions to that rule (Mexico, occasionally Japan) because WWE has a huge roster, but yeah, there has always been that "this wrestler represents this country!" feel. Khali back then, now Jinder Asuka, since no other Japanese wrestler can get a push Currently Xia Li Nakamura is THE Japanese male wrestler etc. It's just regular tokenism, most of the companies can be accused of it (AEW has that one Indian dude on Dark for instance). I do think there is too much capping for WWE on this subject though, because they only recently got better at this. And it was because they had enough talent to allow a culture to flourish (by nature of them having a million people on their roster).
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 1, 2022 13:44:27 GMT -5
I haven't read this whole thread, so excuse me if I repeat anything, but as a black wrestling fan this shit upset me quite a bit. The microaggression of "well, I didn't re-sign her because she wasn't a good wrestler" followed by an earnest advertisement for the show really just puts the whole thing over the top. Such a throwaway line that proves how gotten to he is about all this. My biggest problem is that it really paints Swole as not being good enough to have a job. When has he said stuff like that before? Especially after a talent went out of their way to say that there were no hard feelings and the exit interview ended on solid terms. Khan and the office presumably heard all of this from Swole directly already, so him responding in this way makes it seem like all he cares about is the public perception of the company, and not about the mission statement the company laid out from the beginning. That's a terrible thing to hear from an audience's perspective. The fact that he can't see that is so absurd. Now any of the black fans that are concerned about this won't be able to watch the show in the same way. I liked seeing the community have Swole's back, and DLock & Lio be very vocal about their distaste for the comment, but everyone in the company making Britt think her shit doesn't stink is also a part of the problem (I saw her RTing what Tony said...wtf). I'm not gonna get too far into that, but I don't want to act like that doesn't bother me either. I don't know, this sucks. Wrestling and Twitter are the two worst things for each other and these idiots keep running to the bird app to flaunt their thin skin. I got more to say, but I'm too tired to even say it. And I'm probably repeating stuff that's been said 100 times in here anyway. Basically, Tony should've just sat there and ate his food. Change needs to happen and it needs to happen quickly. He can clean this up but the fact he threw out token wrestlers just to prove a point without addressing and saying he didn't bring her back cause she was wack is going to have lasting repercussions Because then you open up the door to questions like how do you see us? Do you judge us on talent, who is your favorite, who kisses your ass more etc Like I said earlier it won't hurt him forever from getting black talent in particular but it will in the short term because you open up a can of worms attacking people when they don't fit with your image you trying to put out there He still should apologize, talk to his wrestlers and take a good break off social media
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 1, 2022 13:46:34 GMT -5
Huh? Please provide examples? I think he's talking about non-black POCs. There are exceptions to that rule (Mexico, occasionally Japan) because WWE has a huge roster, but yeah, there has always been that "this wrestler represents this country!" feel. Khali back then, now Jinder Asuka, since no other Japanese wrestler can get a push Currently Xia Li Nakamura is THE Japanese male wrestler etc. It's just regular tokenism, most of the companies can be accused of it (AEW has that one Indian dude on Dark for instance). Oh no, don't get me wrong there I get that part about them pushing one wrestler from their country Way I read it made it seem like they were saying they just sign one person and that's it. Companies are always sadly going to ride the wheels off someone if they click in the demo they reaching for like WWE has been trying to look for their next Mysterio for the last 20 years and still looking
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 1, 2022 13:47:06 GMT -5
Someone asked for a solution to this issue, and it's simple; don't try to force anything. Fans aren't stupid (well, most of them aren't). If something is being pushed heavily due to nepotism, virtue signaling, or any other reason that feels without merit, then they'll see right through it and it's only going to hurt the performer. Wellllllllll but that's the problem, isn't it? This just provides them with an out, a reason to spin their wheels, feigning helplessness. Because it seems plausible a lot of fans (who Aren't Racist But Hate Virtue Signaling) will distrust and resist any black performer getting anything that looks like a push. And then TK just shrugs and says "We tried, but the fans Aren't Stupid and saw through us! Oh well!" And we'll just go back to black wrestlers having to get over "naturally," which always means "very very very very very slowly."
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,332
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jan 1, 2022 13:49:11 GMT -5
RE: Tony Khan
Even without the clear racial element to this, there is absolutely no question:
If you ask a lawyer or PR person, what he did was fundamentally dumb, and potentially ruined future recruitment and PR opportunities.
Trust is something you don't break as a budding company. He broke a lot of it with what he did.
There should be no defense for this. And no both siding. Big Swole is just a wrestler. Tony is the head of a major wrestling promotion. The power and accountability are asymmetrical, period.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,332
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jan 1, 2022 13:51:16 GMT -5
Someone asked for a solution to this issue, and it's simple; don't try to force anything. Fans aren't stupid (well, most of them aren't). To jump on what carp said, I would bet money this is exactly why they ended up in this position in the first place.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 1, 2022 13:51:37 GMT -5
Someone asked for a solution to this issue, and it's simple; don't try to force anything. Fans aren't stupid (well, most of them aren't). If something is being pushed heavily due to nepotism, virtue signaling, or any other reason that feels without merit, then they'll see right through it and it's only going to hurt the performer. Wellllllllll but that's the problem, isn't it? This just provides them with an out, a reason to spin their wheels, feigning helplessness. Because it seems plausible a lot of fans (who Aren't Racist But Hate Virtue Signaling) will distrust and resist any black performer getting anything that looks like a push. And then TK just shrugs and says "We tried, but the fans Aren't Stupid and saw through us! Oh well!" And we'll just go back to black wrestlers having to get over "naturally," which always means "very very very very very slowly." And goes against the notion of if you believe in someone you are going to give them multiple chances to get over Britt, Dark Order, etc all went through diff chances to get over and stay at least somewhat prominent and in Britt case it allowed her to dominate the division Like Britt was forced into the top position but fans loved her so no harm no foul. Hangman Page was going to be forced but they had to pivot with him and he still had every chance to get over, he wasn't pushed down the card and now he is back on top
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2022 13:57:13 GMT -5
RE: Tony Khan Even without the clear racial element to this, there is absolutely no question: If you ask a lawyer or PR person, what he did was fundamentally dumb, and potentially ruined future recruitment and PR opportunities. Trust is something you don't break as a budding company. He broke a lot of it with what he did. There should be no defense for this. And no both siding. Big Swole is just a wrestler. Tony is the head of a major wrestling promotion. The power and accountability are asymmetrical, period. Yeah, that’s what stands out the most to me about all of this. It’s crystal clear that, as was always speculated, Tony truly answers to no one, and there are no checks and balances in place to rein him in when needed. That was always a disaster waiting to happen. It was kind of endearing when AEW was this plucky upstart company that no one was quite sure what to make of. Now that it’s an established commodity, the owner of the company absolutely cannot be in the business of publicly trashing former employees (much less on Twitter). There will absolutely be business ramifications to that, as we’re already seeing.
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