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Post by eJm on Jan 30, 2022 22:05:34 GMT -5
So this might be a bold stance to take and it won’t be popular but I hope I can explain something I’ve been thinking about for a while.
Now, I get it. I really did like the different atmosphere of the project, the hot talent getting their due on a bigger stage and the storyline structure of matches, but looking at the wider picture and how things happened, I find myself thinking that I’d rather have had something different entirely so then the future of the company didn’t feel like a mess.
I don’t want a 2.0, do not get me wrong. 2.0 isn’t doing anything to really appeal to people outside of reminding people that WWE doesn’t really know how to take advantage of the talent they have but instead putting gimmick coats of paint and blaming them if it doesn’t dry quick enough. And outside of a couple of people, I can’t really see anyone there really working out and connecting because of how volatile those on top are for changing something that might work or even restructuring something to not fit with who a person NBC is.
I’ve said this before but both HHH and Vince had logical approaches to development. You needed people who can fit in the ecosystem of the main roster but you also needed to think about the future and adapting to what wrestling is now and not look dated. If they both came together and came up with a strategy and get the right people on board who would work, there might actually feel like there’s more hope for the future than there is now and a bunch of people wouldn’t have had to lose their jobs for not working or whatever might have happened. But both had to have big egos and Vince didn’t seem to care much about it until it was too late. It’s hard to feel sympathy for HHH because, honestly, the strategy was also to sink the indies as much as possible (and he did with BritWres, they just hit themselves with the final Bullet) which backfired when it basically spawned actual promotions and revitalizations of older companies doing what the ‘Fed wasn’t doing.
Now all we have is really, really stupid debates about marketability and who works in WWE and whether they can have mainstream appeal when nobody really knows what that means and the real “mainstream” approach that’s making billions of dollars, nerd culture, isn’t being glanced at by the company because it’s not “manly” or “wasn’t around in ‘97” even though WWE also produced those gimmicks that didn’t work on the main roster. NXT is a part of WWE, doesn’t matter the spin or whatever outspoken person thinks, Vince is paying for all of it and he runs it. End of story for me. Buck stops at the top etc.
So, like, some of NXT means a lot to me as a fan and a lot of the mainstream adaptations of indie storylines were nice but…I really can’t help but look at where things are and think that it wasn’t a great thing for the company. Not because of the content but because of the divide. And that just sucks.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 30, 2022 22:38:28 GMT -5
My take is that For whatever reason, NXT really lost its luster gradually after the move to USA way prior the cancellation of Black and gold. 2014-2018 NXT was phenomenal stuff. Had a nice hybrid of talent who fit better for a main roster call up, while keeping the hardcore fan base interested with the elements that they enjoy. But it became less and less this developmental indy hybrid and more and more super indy and it got boring. The talent wasn't as entertaining. Plus takeovers felt less special. Pre pandemic takeovers always had a big fight feel.
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salz4life
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Post by salz4life on Jan 31, 2022 10:19:47 GMT -5
NXT should've NEVER left being a Network Exclusive. It absolutely should've just been a third brand on an island doing it's own thing. Granted, that's taking business out of the equation and you can't do that, so we see what happened.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 31, 2022 10:34:57 GMT -5
No NXT as we knew it at its peak would be a CRAZY butterfly effect on the modern history of wrestling. For example, what happens with women’s wrestling with no Paige or Emma to set things up for Flair, Banks, Bayley and Lynch to give it a sorely-needed kick in the ass? Would women’s wrestling just be dead at a mainstream-for-wrestling level in North America? Not “I don’t like the booking so it’s dead to me”, but ACTUAL dead?
Other things… Prince Devitt never leaves Japan for NXT, so that changes the whole Bullet Club arc, which affects AJ Styles, Kenny Omega, maybe the entire existence of AEW. All the talents that got their big break in NXT, ones that WWE dropped the ball on and ones they didn’t, does that break ever happen for them? It’s crazy to think about.
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thehottag
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Post by thehottag on Jan 31, 2022 11:14:05 GMT -5
I can't ever wish for less opportunity for the wrestlers, or for fans to enjoy more wrestling. I can't see WWE being much different to the way it is now even without NXT, because Vince would have the final say no matter what alternate dimension we are in.
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 31, 2022 11:19:23 GMT -5
I feel like the move to USA was in a lot of ways a good thing. It's glossed over a lot, but while the Takeovers were awesome, a lot of the weekly shows were SHAMELESSLY totally filler. That's not necessarily a terrible thing, and it fit with what the stated goal of NXT was, but it really could get dull sometimes.
In addition to them working on the program a bit more, it also did lead to some fun stuff like Halloween Havoc, which wasn't by coincidence one of the small handful of times NXT won in total viewers. It was a gimmick that excelled for them, and some actual affection seemed to go into making it. It's unfortunate that it was such a coup was something of a rarity for them.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 31, 2022 11:42:27 GMT -5
So this might be a bold stance to take and it won’t be popular but I hope I can explain something I’ve been thinking about for a while. Now, I get it. I really did like the different atmosphere of the project, the hot talent getting their due on a bigger stage and the storyline structure of matches, but looking at the wider picture and how things happened, I find myself thinking that I’d rather have had something different entirely so then the future of the company didn’t feel like a mess. I don’t want a 2.0, do not get me wrong. 2.0 isn’t doing anything to really appeal to people outside of reminding people that WWE doesn’t really know how to take advantage of the talent they have but instead putting gimmick coats of paint and blaming them if it doesn’t dry quick enough. And outside of a couple of people, I can’t really see anyone there really working out and connecting because of how volatile those on top are for changing something that might work or even restructuring something to not fit with who a person NBC is. I’ve said this before but both HHH and Vince had logical approaches to development. You needed people who can fit in the ecosystem of the main roster but you also needed to think about the future and adapting to what wrestling is now and not look dated. If they both came together and came up with a strategy and get the right people on board who would work, there might actually feel like there’s more hope for the future than there is now and a bunch of people wouldn’t have had to lose their jobs for not working or whatever might have happened. But both had to have big egos and Vince didn’t seem to care much about it until it was too late. It’s hard to feel sympathy for HHH because, honestly, the strategy was also to sink the indies as much as possible (and he did with BritWres, they just hit themselves with the final Bullet) which backfired when it basically spawned actual promotions and revitalizations of older companies doing what the ‘Fed wasn’t doing. Now all we have is really, really stupid debates about marketability and who works in WWE and whether they can have mainstream appeal when nobody really knows what that means and the real “mainstream” approach that’s making billions of dollars, nerd culture, isn’t being glanced at by the company because it’s not “manly” or “wasn’t around in ‘97” even though WWE also produced those gimmicks that didn’t work on the main roster. NXT is a part of WWE, doesn’t matter the spin or whatever outspoken person thinks, Vince is paying for all of it and he runs it. End of story for me. Buck stops at the top etc. So, like, some of NXT means a lot to me as a fan and a lot of the mainstream adaptations of indie storylines were nice but…I really can’t help but look at where things are and think that it wasn’t a great thing for the company. Not because of the content but because of the divide. And that just sucks. I get your point but I think it's a reach to say it wasn't a great thing for the company. Here's why: - Becky Lynch - Bayley - Sasha Banks - Asuka - Alexa Bliss - Charlotte Flair - Kevin Owens - Baron Corbin - Sami Zayn - Riddle - Finn Balor (he's still super popular even if not used right) And countless others, including guys who ended up using NXT as a finishing school of sorts like Rollins and Big E. Yes, WWE hasn't used them all to their full potential, but they still have top stars and top merch movers thanks to NXT. I'd go as far as saying North American women's wrestling wouldn't be where it is today without the rise of NXT's women's division. The mistake really came when WWE stopped treating NXT like a developmental and more like the Indie Wrestling Death Star. They got bloated with talent that had no chance on the main roster - guys like Oney, Burch, Thatcher and many, many others. I think that's when you *really* saw things starting to come apart.
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Post by eJm on Jan 31, 2022 11:50:55 GMT -5
I feel people are really mixing up my point and some of it is on me for not explaining.
Yes, NXT did good and developed talent that did well on the main roster. I’m not saying it didn’t nor do I deny that.
But in my head, whenever I see the state of the main roster and just the lack of cooperation on both sides, I’d honestly would have rather have had a company that knew what it wanted from its talents, knew how to develop them and we didn’t have to constantly worry about their futures on the main roster or whether they were worthy of Vince’s good graces then where we are now.
Like, I can’t look at the company’s future in developing talent and be optimistic after the stumbling blocks it’s had the last time whilst NXT was around being like “Oh don’t worry, we’re the GOOD part of WWE”. If that leads people to think I didn’t want what happened as a result to NXT to happen (the women’s division etc), then honestly so be it because that isn’t what I mean.
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jan 31, 2022 11:57:27 GMT -5
Not because of the content but because of the divide. And that just sucks. I think this is a good point. Hunter's NXT provided a product for the disenfranchised fans that left. Many came back to the WWE, not because of what was happening on Raw/Smackdown, but because they wanted to see how the indie talent they found when they left would fair under the WWE umbrella. NXT became a safe space, for a lack of a better term. It provided great exposure for talent like Joe, Owens, Zayn, etc., while also showcasing talent that would revolutionize how the casual fan viewed women's wrestling. And for a brief period NXT was still viewed by some as developmental. However, it then shifted into its own brand and that's what hurt it. You had guys like the Undisputed Era, arguably WWE's hottest stable since the Shield, floundering there, because either Hunter needed them there to help build that brand, or Vince didn't see any value in them on Raw/Smackdown, or possibly both. It became less about the call-ups once stars were needed to fill the roster for the USA show. The divide grew when some talent, like the War Raiders, where brought up to the "main" roster. You saw two wrestling minds struggle against the common goal. Hunter established so much talent into the WWE ecosystem, but Vince had other plans, whatever they may be, only he knows for sure. Fans that came back to WWE, or got into wrestling all together, because of NXT could have became faithful viewers of Raw/Smackdown had the characters they fell in love were shown in the same light. Alas, Vince and Hunter could not work together creatively.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 31, 2022 12:17:27 GMT -5
I feel people are really mixing up my point and some of it is on me for not explaining. Yes, NXT did good and developed talent that did well on the main roster. I’m not saying it didn’t nor do I deny that. But in my head, whenever I see the state of the main roster and just the lack of cooperation on both sides, I’d honestly would have rather have had a company that knew what it wanted from its talents, knew how to develop them and we didn’t have to constantly worry about their futures on the main roster or whether they were worthy of Vince’s good graces then where we are now. Like, I can’t look at the company’s future in developing talent and be optimistic after the stumbling blocks it’s had the last time whilst NXT was around being like “Oh don’t worry, we’re the GOOD part of WWE”. If that leads people to think I didn’t want what happened as a result to NXT to happen (the women’s division etc), then honestly so be it because that isn’t what I mean. Yeah, point taken, but I think the challenge is that this has always been an issue and it's not going to change until Vince's gone. Vince had issues with OVW, DSW, FCW, NXT, probably even guys that were coming out of the Funkin Dojo. It's always been a dysfunctional mess. It's impossible to be able to develop stars when your owner's vision is constantly changing. On top of that, 75% of the time they change what people liked about wrestlers in developmental in the first place. What put a spotlight on this was WWE developmental content becoming easy to access thanks to the Network. Hopefully, if there's new ownership or Vince steps back one day, things can get a little more cohesive. For now, I think it's just going to be as much of a crapshoot as ever.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 31, 2022 12:39:42 GMT -5
I will always say this, but I wonder how much different things would have gone if WWE took the FS1 offer rather than the USA won. Viewership overall would be down but Fox was gonna go all in on them.
As for NXT not existing? Vince and Triple H should have more cohesion from the get go. But the decision to go head to head with USA really caused cracks to show.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 31, 2022 12:53:12 GMT -5
I feel people are really mixing up my point and some of it is on me for not explaining. Yes, NXT did good and developed talent that did well on the main roster. I’m not saying it didn’t nor do I deny that. But in my head, whenever I see the state of the main roster and just the lack of cooperation on both sides, I’d honestly would have rather have had a company that knew what it wanted from its talents, knew how to develop them and we didn’t have to constantly worry about their futures on the main roster or whether they were worthy of Vince’s good graces then where we are now. I think we have plenty of evidence that it isn't necessary to have a brand divide for no one in the WWE, including Vince himself, to know what the WWE wants from its talents or whether anyone is worthy of Vince's good graces. Part of this is that Vince is an idiot with no attention span. Part of it is the fans, who do not like that man with the bodybuilder physique, thank you very much. (though this last part may be changing as non-diehards are bled away) The issue here is there's a more obvious counterfactual than "NXT never existed." It's that Vince and the other main roster bookers actually incorporated HHH's vision into their shows way way WAY more than they were actually willing to do.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2022 13:40:23 GMT -5
I will always say this, but I wonder how much different things would have gone if WWE took the FS1 offer rather than the USA won. Viewership overall would be down but Fox was gonna go all in on them. As for NXT not existing? Vince and Triple H should have more cohesion from the get go. But the decision to go head to head with USA really caused cracks to show. The FS1 deal would have been so much better because like you said they would have gone all in on them even though the viewership may not be as high as it was on USA and they damn sure would not have put them head to head with AEW. But they would have gotten a much stronger promotional push that might have pushed the viewership up and synergized with SD something USA and WWE never did outside of the SVS build with Raw.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2022 13:45:56 GMT -5
Nah, not me.
I'd say that I wish they had a plan of Triple H taking over from Vince and NXT was part of that plan. If they had a roadmap and one of the first stops was NXT and it's entire purpose was to lead to Triple H taking over then great because NXT was/is dope. The problem is that, that wasn't the plan. The plan was for Triple H to do his own thing with what Vince gave him and if Vince wanted to he could take over it like he's done. He could do whatever he wants when talent gets called up, like he's done. He could dismantle it from the core, like he's done.
Now, if there was a plan for Trips to take over then NXT, the overlap between programming and furthermore the call-ups, storylines and such would all be far better and greater. It's just not like that though.
The problem lies in the lack of a connected vision. We just needed that from the jump.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 31, 2022 13:47:06 GMT -5
Nah disagree hard in this
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4real
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Post by 4real on Jan 31, 2022 14:19:17 GMT -5
It’s sad we had a vision of what WWE could have been but Vince just wasn’t interested and set in his ways.
I’ll always have NXT London I guess. Best live wrestling show I’ve been to.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 31, 2022 15:31:47 GMT -5
Nah, not me. I'd say that I wish they had a plan of Triple H taking over from Vince and NXT was part of that plan. If they had a roadmap and one of the first stops was NXT and it's entire purpose was to lead to Triple H taking over then great because NXT was/is dope. The problem is that, that wasn't the plan. The plan was for Triple H to do his own thing with what Vince gave him and if Vince wanted to he could take over it like he's done. He could do whatever he wants when talent gets called up, like he's done. He could dismantle it from the core, like he's done. Now, if there was a plan for Trips to take over then NXT, the overlap between programming and furthermore the call-ups, storylines and such would all be far better and greater. It's just not like that though. The problem lies in the lack of a connected vision. We just needed that from the jump. I think the plan was for Trips to use NXT to prepare to eventually be Vince while also running developmental as from every interview I've seen Hunter said that when he pitched NXT and the PC to Vince his pitch was that the wrestlers who came up from developmental were not ready for TV. I just think that once they got to network TV some of the NXT weaknesses popped up. Matches were still great but a lot of things were not translating from the Network to cable... now admittedly not all of that is Triple H's fault but some is. Either way he made enemies in NXT's success and when times were not as good on USA they struck
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jan 31, 2022 15:36:57 GMT -5
Those conversations were also going on back in the days when NXT was a game show. Hell, before that even, can totally remember people going, "Punk shouldn't be champion, he's an indie guy, he'll never take off," well before his rise.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jan 31, 2022 15:45:04 GMT -5
Vince should have just retired and let Triple H's vision of the WWE take over.
A lot of what is contributing to the failures WWE has everywhere but financially stems from the fact that Vince can't let go.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2022 15:48:39 GMT -5
I don't care what should have or could have happened.
I want a better product right now whether it has anything to do with NXT having existed or not.
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