Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,277
|
Post by Mozenrath on Apr 2, 2022 1:27:54 GMT -5
Mainstream isn't a thing. Really there's nothing that 100% captures the attention of the masses. Marvel movies are probably the closest thing. WWE is popular. Wrestlemania is still seen as a huge media and pop culture event. But pretty much everything is niche. Some are more well known, but everything is basically a niche these days. This is largely true. I do think WWE has serious issues when it comes to failing to make their shows feel like appointment TV. A lot of that is consequences of having as much programming to fill as they do, which, that's not something they can do anything about, realistically. TV deal money is an enormous part of the business as it operates right now, so cutting it down isn't an option. Still, if they could maybe not make it feel like we can dip out for weeks and rarely miss anything, that'd certainly help.
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 2, 2022 1:34:35 GMT -5
But I figured out what really CAPTURED the audiences attention. And that was crazy, (sometimes) big, muscular, over the top guys. The WWE does have big, muscular, over-the-top guys that capture the audiences' attention. Unfortunately, it's Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson, John Cena, and Dave Bautista. The WWE hasn't made anyone else be able to step into those boots to replace them. The WWE have tons of people that the audience has been begging to get behind, that if given the opportunity would probably kill it. People whenver it looks like (or looked like) the company was going to get behind the crowd have gone crazy for. Instead they cut them off at the knees because it wasn't in the plans, becuase Brock vs. Roman for the like seventh time had to headline a third mania... The Demon rebirth stuff was hokey as hell but the crowd were 100% behind it and were all in on Finn beating Roman only for them to have him lose in the dumbest f***ing way possible with no follow up ... after the storyline and build to the match wrote it off as a match that didn't need to happen. The Crowd were behind Kevin Owens the first... like 2 times it seemed like he was going to beat Roman before the obvious interference until it became obvious that Owens was going to fall for it literally every time and they basically had to turn him heel to recover from the feud. Cesaro was on a yoyo push forever that the crowd would get behind him and the company would seemingly go out of their way to make him seem unimportant. Literally watch his booking after winning hte first Andre... they slowly took away everything the crowd liked about him, didn't let him show any emotion and basically he stood around while Heyman talked about how great Brock was. Last year, the crowd were ready for Cesaro to finally get his due, he was facing off with Rollins and won... he got a one on one match with Roman... who then promptly no sold all of his offense and quickly defeated him... and then Cesaro got beat down by Rollins, then Jey, and Roman again... and basically making it seem that the story was Cesaro didn't deserve to be in the same company as Roman let alone the same ring... and that was followed up by... him teaming wiht like Mansoor on main event until Cesaro left the company. the crowd have done the same thing with Nakamura who they've also basically tossed aside... and ignored every time he's gotten over. Hell Ricochet could easily be their Jeff Hardy/RVD daredevil if they gave him like half of a chance to show off all the flippy shit he can do... but they don't because the WWE has basically completely lost the entire plot and can't even seem to figure out how to tell a cohesive story out of something as simple as Guy A wants to fight Guy B for the title. It's exemplified in both of the Roman vs. Cena matches where they talked about attendance reports and ratings and all other little worky shoot bullshit minutia that no one could possibly care about and ultimately isn't settled in a match. instead of the obvious John Cena was the Franchise babyface who exemplifies and preaches hard work and good sportsmanship vs. Roman who basically feels entitled to having respect and the title and will resort to any means necessary to get it including causing violence to his own family members to get them to fall in line. The Cena/Roman feud basically writes it's f***ing self when you look at the character traits of the two... you don't need to make something f***ing complicated. Pro wrestling is f***ing easy...
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Apr 2, 2022 1:50:14 GMT -5
I’ll just come in and say that this debate is exceptionally boring and keeps getting exceptionally boring every time it comes up because there’s always people that don’t understand what appeals to people now.
An example; You know what’s big right now and dominating media across all fronts? Nerd culture. Marvel shows are big, Sonic 2 is likely going to dominate the box office this weekend, there’s never been more people to own a variety of consoles and services for games than right now, manga is dominating the western book industry etc.
You know what WWE seems to dislike more than not having the expenses graph drop an inch into the red? Nerd Culture. With Ricochet alone, you could sign a deal with Marvel Comics to have an artist draw him Spider-Man like and put over his athleticism but they don’t do that. That’s just something I thought of just now.
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 2, 2022 1:52:13 GMT -5
I’ll just come in and say that this debate is exceptionally boring and keeps getting exceptionally boring every time it comes up because there’s always people that don’t understand what appeals to people now. An example; You know what’s big right now and dominating media across all fronts? Nerd culture. Marvel shows are big, Sonic 2 is likely going to dominate the box office this weekend, there’s never been more people to own a variety of consoles and services for games than right now etc. You know what WWE seems to dislike more than not having the expenses graph drop an inch into the red? Nerd Culture. Yeah, hell most of the WRESTLERS are nerds... look how many are/were on twitch or posting youtube videos of them doing things like Toy collectible stuff...
|
|
|
Post by RadcapRadsley on Apr 2, 2022 2:03:00 GMT -5
Kid's Today : Watches twitch streams,tiktok and youtube content and are also on instagram
WWE Exec: Perfomers are forbidden from using twitch nor can create any youtube content under their wwe name unless they give wwe all their revenue and said content must be owned and approved by wwe,we won't let performers make any revenue on instagram,and we have little presence on tiktok
Also WWE Exec:Why is our median aged viewer 60
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 3:01:19 GMT -5
I don't know why they stopped doing cinematic matches.
It can create larger than life characters, if marketed correctly could tap into the YouTube/tiktok younger demo, LU showed there's a niche for it among hardcore fans, both major companies efforts during the pandemic were well receieved.
It solves problems that both companies have, for WWE it gives a character and storylines to guys like Omos who have the look but can't wrestle. For AEW it helps with their roster bloat, give Matt Hardy 2 hours of YouTube content to film with the guys and girls not currently booked on tv and he'll get them better exposure than Dark.
Both companies lost interest in CMs as soon as crowds were allowed back but its a well that is yet to be depleted.
|
|
|
Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Apr 2, 2022 3:05:24 GMT -5
Preach brother. (But get ready for the backlash. I tried to say the something similar a few years ago questioning whether or not blaming Vince was a cop out, and was labeled as a shill.)
|
|
Moppy
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,209
Member is Online
|
Post by Moppy on Apr 2, 2022 3:15:04 GMT -5
WWE has spent YEARS shedding its fans and hasn't been 'mainstream' since about 2001.
This asinine debate that regularly rears its head trying to attribute WWE's various failures to just having fewer 'tough guy larger-than-life characters' is just so ridiculously wide of the mark.
"There used to be CHARACTERS, where have all the CHARACTERS gone?!?" just sounds like my Dad talking about snooker.
|
|
|
Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 2, 2022 3:24:44 GMT -5
As ever, if WWE - top 5 on TV twice a week, 52 times a year, stadium shows and billion dollar deals - isn't mainstream. What is?
Tiger King was a meme that was everywhere for about exactly two months. Nobody cared about Tiger King 2. Tiger King 38 sure as shit wouldn't be doing two nights at Jerry World. I don't think that is something WWE needs to be envious of - nor Wordle, Pokemon Go, HQ Trivia or anything else that was 'mainstream' until it very quickly wasn't.
Could they do better, could it be more suited to your specific tastes? For sure. But to try and argue WWE isn't one of the most enduringly, overwhelmingly successful entertainment properties around is ignoring reality.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Apr 2, 2022 3:25:05 GMT -5
WWE has spent YEARS shedding its fans and hasn't been 'mainstream' since about 2001. This asinine debate that regularly rears its head trying to attribute WWE's various failures to just having fewer 'tough guy larger-than-life characters' is just so ridiculously wide of the mark. "There used to be CHARACTERS, where have all the CHARACTERS gone?!?" just sounds like my Dad talking about snooker. I feel it also has shred it’s ability to make larger than life characters. Plat put it best with his list but let me put forward the case for The Fiend. This was a dude who reinvented himself, had a memorable match against Finn for the entrance and destruction, setting up a character to kick out at 1 for everything and be a slasher movie monster, not being able to be stopped… And he’s overexposed, put into the title picture for some reason when the character wouldn’t care about belts and put in possibly the worst HIAC match since Bossman/Taker which ended, before the Instagram post confirmed it was a no contest somehow, in a disqualification. Like, how can you care about a character like that when he can’t get the job done despite being shown as unstoppable? When you then give the people what they would like and they’re still booing? You f***ed up. And that’s not even getting into the Goldberg bullshit. Jesus Christ. And despite ALL of that, he was making them bucketloads of money and still is even now from the leftover products. But he had too many opinions of his character so he had to go, clearly.
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Apr 2, 2022 3:35:46 GMT -5
Preach brother. (But get ready for the backlash. I tried to say the something similar a few years ago questioning whether or not blaming Vince was a cop out, and was labeled as a shill.) Because It's not a cop out to blame Vince. Since the issues are not on the Wrestlers, it's not on the writers, or even the other bookers or agents. It's on Vince. because literally everything in the WWE comes back to Vince. All the issues with writing and everything mostly mentioned in this thread is due to Vince's booking strategy. Vince's changing his mind every few minutes on story writing Vince being the final say on everything. Vince is still the root of the problem. and nothing is going to change or get better until Vince realizes it and changes his strategy, or is no longer the man in charge.
|
|
|
Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 2, 2022 3:47:41 GMT -5
Preach brother. (But get ready for the backlash. I tried to say the something similar a few years ago questioning whether or not blaming Vince was a cop out, and was labeled as a shill.) Because It's not a cop out to blame Vince. Since the issues are not on the Wrestlers, it's not on the writers, or even the other bookers or agents. It's on Vince. because literally everything in the WWE comes back to Vince. All the issues with writing and everything mostly mentioned in this thread is due to Vince's booking strategy. Vince's changing his mind every few minutes on story writing Vince being the final say on everything. Vince is still the root of the problem. and nothing is going to change or get better until Vince realizes it and changes his strategy, or is no longer the man in charge. Whatever anyone personally things the problem is, Vince McMahon is the control freak at the top of the pyramid who is responsible for all of it. Every decision made is his. Every talent who gets pushed gets pushed by him. He writes the show, he signs the checks, he determines who gets cut and who works for the company. Even if people don't agree on what the problems are or what is being done wrong, it seems insane to me to think that that isn't the fault of the man at the top making all the decisions. Vince isn't some absentee CEO manifesting only for keynote speeches and press events without much day-to-day involvement with the products. He's the boots on the ground madman who not only writes the show but then sits in a chair with a headset at a monitor, watching the show through its live production and shouting orders at people. He makes live, on the fly decisions about the show. Everything in it is made with his direct, explicit involvement. You can't just ignore him and be like "No but actually it's that this guy from Japan was never going to get over, marks are wrong". Vince is the one putting that guy on TV.
|
|
|
Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Apr 2, 2022 3:51:27 GMT -5
I’ll just come in and say that this debate is exceptionally boring and keeps getting exceptionally boring every time it comes up because there’s always people that don’t understand what appeals to people now. An example; You know what’s big right now and dominating media across all fronts? Nerd culture. Marvel shows are big, Sonic 2 is likely going to dominate the box office this weekend, there’s never been more people to own a variety of consoles and services for games than right now etc. You know what WWE seems to dislike more than not having the expenses graph drop an inch into the red? Nerd Culture. Yeah, hell most of the WRESTLERS are nerds... look how many are/were on twitch or posting youtube videos of them doing things like Toy collectible stuff... It's actually crazy how the talent would literally do the job that hundreds of people working for WWE's social media and advertising depertmants would never do as effectively, and they wouldn't have even have to pay the talent any extra, so long as they can pocket the revenue streams from their side hustles. And the year of the pandemic closures gave all the talent the free time they needed to make it work. But instead, they killed that from ever happening.
|
|
|
Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Apr 2, 2022 3:55:21 GMT -5
Preach brother. (But get ready for the backlash. I tried to say the something similar a few years ago questioning whether or not blaming Vince was a cop out, and was labeled as a shill.) Because It's not a cop out to blame Vince. Since the issues are not on the Wrestlers, it's not on the writers, or even the other bookers or agents. It's on Vince. because literally everything in the WWE comes back to Vince. All the issues with writing and everything mostly mentioned in this thread is due to Vince's booking strategy. Vince's changing his mind every few minutes on story writing Vince being the final say on everything. Vince is still the root of the problem. and nothing is going to change or get better until Vince realizes it and changes his strategy, or is no longer the man in charge. And the problem is that there is no impetus for him TO change or even try to do better. WWE is literally making more money now than they ever have despite all those flaws you list. What, the hardcore fans are mad at him for pushing the wrong people? The hardcore fans have never NOT been mad at him for pushing the wrong people, he ain’t sweating it. You could probably dig up old Observers from the 1980s with reader letters saying that Jake Roberts should’ve been world champion instead of Hulk Hogan. What could force it? Maybe the next TV deal is the one where the bubble finally bursts, like we’ve been predicting for nearly a decade now. Maybe he pisses off the wrong Saudi Arabian and loses the guaranteed $100 million per year that has already seen them make more money from that deal than they have from every WrestleMania put together. Maybe AEW finally beats them in total viewership numbers straight up. Maybe he gets visited by three ghosts on Christmas Eve. I don’t know, the man is a f***in’ enigma.
|
|
|
Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Apr 2, 2022 4:00:54 GMT -5
at one point that was probably it but up and down the card you have a roster of workers people love all over. I think people just hate that it sucks and every personality that gets dragged into it's shitty orbit goes down with it. People just wanna care again so they can then say the wrong people are being pushed.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,952
|
Post by Dub H on Apr 2, 2022 4:01:12 GMT -5
They are "mainstream" in the sense people know they exist and that they are wrestling.
They just dont care about WWE anymore.
And yeh it mostly because WWE sucks
"hardcore fansa re mad tha-" no there isnt "hardcore" fans.
There are fans, and when fans dont like the product the first ones to speak up are the ones that love it the most.
People say"oh its jsut the hardcore"for 10 years and for 10 years WWE Viewership plummeted. WWE will always be carried by the brand name now so they dont have to worry at least.
Also Radcap brought a good point about accessibility. WWE tries to isolate its wrestlers of doing anything so they stay dependant on then, but that also meant cutting access to the younger fans
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2022 4:02:16 GMT -5
Yeah the line that it isn't mainstream is particularly tired. The definition of mainstream has transformed but WWE is still definitely it.
Also the line 'we need characters' has been a tired line for 20 years. Because whenever they have, it's sucked. Because the actual problem with WWE is the same it's been for years. That it's crap.
|
|
|
Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 2, 2022 4:19:21 GMT -5
Common consensus (from the ratings threads) is that AEW has a near perfect product. That it's basically as good as pro wrestling can be.
If WWE were putting on Dynamite level shows instead of Raw - what material difference do people think it would make?
Like, what is the actual popularity ceiling for wrestling in 2022? Marvel Universe?
|
|
|
Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Apr 2, 2022 4:27:18 GMT -5
I think a lot of it is the lack of a big time lead face who is larger then life and universally popular. If you look at the two big boom periods in the Hulkamania era in the mid-late 80's and the Attitude Era in the late 90's-early 2000's they each that with Hogan and then Austin and Rock. They don't have that now a days as they either run with heels or if try to push a face as the guy who has mainstream appeal like Cena or Reigns they get crapped on by the fans for being the golden boy chosen one. Until that guy comes around and they go with him and are really care about how they book him then I don't see it ever being big deal mainstream again.
|
|
fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
Posts: 39,183
Member is Online
|
Post by fw91 on Apr 2, 2022 4:33:06 GMT -5
Preach brother. (But get ready for the backlash. I tried to say the something similar a few years ago questioning whether or not blaming Vince was a cop out, and was labeled as a shill.) Because It's not a cop out to blame Vince. Since the issues are not on the Wrestlers, it's not on the writers, or even the other bookers or agents. It's on Vince. because literally everything in the WWE comes back to Vince. All the issues with writing and everything mostly mentioned in this thread is due to Vince's booking strategy. Vince's changing his mind every few minutes on story writing Vince being the final say on everything. Vince is still the root of the problem. and nothing is going to change or get better until Vince realizes it and changes his strategy, or is no longer the man in charge. He’s not a saint by any means, but imo this way of thinking off-sets any point that was made by the OP, which again imo is very accurate. I’m not going to say Vince is a stand up guy, but I don’t think one can be dismissive of the op.
|
|