When did Vince/WWE stop knowing how to book a babyface?

[Deleted]

Since the time of Vince Sr, even, the WWE has (until very recently) always been a babyface territory.

You have your hero who holds the belt and is THE top guy, and then you have a revolving cast of heels to act as challengers. It'd been that way for years; Bruno, Hogan, Austin, Cena, Rock, etc. I mean, yeah, some of those guys had some heel turns here and there, but on the whole, they worked best as babyfaces, and Vince booked them as, well, heroes.

Now it's like EVERYTHING has to be about heat. Your big bad monster villain has to look strong and unstoppable at the expense of your faces looking like either idiots or wimps.

So what changed? Vince isn't a guy known for changing easily, so I really do wonder when this started to change and what happened. The only thing I can boil it down to is that it started with Brock's return.

[Famous Rocking Chimes]

I feel like they saw the fan reaction to their attempts to keep Daniel Bryan away from the main event scene and figured that was the best way to get heat on the heels.

[Deleted]

I would argue that historically it hasn't been that way.

-Hulkamania absolutely woked, but attempts to repeat it with Luger and Warrior didn't work.

-The fans demanded that Austin and Rock were stars, and Vince went along with it. He never planned for Austin to be the new Hogan.

- Cena was just kind of shoved down our throats until we accepted it.

[Deleted]

Truthfully I think things went very gray due to Cena and the refusal to change him or turn him heel...He overstayed his welcome and polarized the position.

[Chiral]

I feel like it's a combo of:
-Cena's polarizing crowd reactions and seeing that they could just continue on despite them
-Roman Reigns being soundly rejected by the audience as top guy and seeing that they could just continue on despite them
-The takeaway to Bryan's rise being "faces should be losers forever and then the fans will like them"
-The takeaway to the streak breaking being "we can get big shocked sad crowd reactions to big sad events therefore we should do them as much as possible"
-Brock being that final boss heel champion for so long making "unbeatable heel forever" the status quo for world champs, see Raw easily slipping back into absentee champion writing as soon as Brock won the belt, then continuing almost immediately when Roman won their belt, and heel Roman as Universal champion in general

[Ben Wyatt]

Drew from Dec 19 until his recent nonsense with Corbin is the best they've booked a babyface in a long time.

[Raw is Doodie101]

When they started to turn on Cena and neither the Hulk Hogan nor Steven Austin pushes worked to get fully cheered and then they realized they could continue to push forward since he was making them a crap ton of money.

Also, it isn't true that Cena was shoved down people's faces. He got organically over and stayed over because half the audience LOVED him and the other half paid to boo him.

[sportatorium]

I think the attitude era faces were such a departure from the old white meat ones & WWE never really evolved after that.

[asuka007]

WWE completely misunderstood why Daniel Bryan worked as well as he did.

Also they looked at the AE and decided all successful babyfaces need to be A-holes and jerks for no reason.

[Deleted]

I don't watch WWE anymore other than the big 4 PPVs.

After Wrestlemania 38, if you asked me who the top babyfaces in the company are, I'd probably say Pat McAfee and Steve Austin.

I know that's not the case from what little bit of news I keep up with, but I don't know how a very casual fan would have come out of that show with a different opinion.

[Feyrhausen]

Apr 18, 2022 12:02:40 GMT -5 @therealoblivion said:

I would argue that historically it hasn't been that way.

-Hulkamania absolutely woked, but attempts to repeat it with Luger and Warrior didn't work.

-The fans demanded that Austin and Rock were stars, and Vince went along with it. He never planned for Austin to be the new Hogan.

- Cena was just kind of shoved down our throats until we accepted it.

Hulkmania began in another company. WWF only added the a.

Austin was not the WWF style babyface. They went with him anyway.

What was the common thread here? Vince was under the gun. In both cases he was desperate not to go out of business.

When Vince has been comfortable he wants to do things his way. And his way usually sucks.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Apr 18, 2022 14:54:42 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Apr 18, 2022 12:02:40 GMT -5 @therealoblivion said:

I would argue that historically it hasn't been that way.

-Hulkamania absolutely woked, but attempts to repeat it with Luger and Warrior didn't work.

-The fans demanded that Austin and Rock were stars, and Vince went along with it. He never planned for Austin to be the new Hogan.

- Cena was just kind of shoved down our throats until we accepted it.

Hulkmania began in another company. WWF only added the a.

Austin was not the WWF style babyface. They went with him anyway.

What was the common thread here? Vince was under the gun. In both cases he was desperate not to go out of business.

When Vince has been comfortable he wants to do things his way. And his way usually sucks.

I think Hogan is more the Vince mould than you're giving him credit for here. He definitely took him and used him, but '80s Vince absolutely knew how to capitalize on him and used him to make his ideal product. Hogan wasn't a Vince creation but I think it's safe to call it a Vince product through and through. Vince knew how to do the '80s and one of the biggest issues he ran into was trying to still keep those patterns moving into the '90s. In the '90s is when the pressure was on him to change and have to adapt into something else, and tro listen to other people more about what he was doing. And it worked, but then those people he listened to left and culture moved on, and that's where things started to get dicey as the Ruthless Aggression era came in and culture began to diverge in ways Vince doesn't really grasp.

[Raw is Doodie101]

Apr 18, 2022 14:58:26 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Apr 18, 2022 14:54:42 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Hulkmania began in another company. WWF only added the a.

Austin was not the WWF style babyface. They went with him anyway.

What was the common thread here? Vince was under the gun. In both cases he was desperate not to go out of business.

When Vince has been comfortable he wants to do things his way. And his way usually sucks.

I think Hogan is more the Vince mould than you're giving him credit for here. He definitely took him and used him, but '80s Vince absolutely knew how to capitalize on him and used him to make his ideal product. Hogan wasn't a Vince creation but I think it's safe to call it a Vince product through and through. Vince knew how to do the '80s and one of the biggest issues he ran into was trying to still keep those patterns moving into the '90s. In the '90s is when the pressure was on him to change and have to adapt into something else, and tro listen to other people more about what he was doing. And it worked, but then those people he listened to left and culture moved on, and that's where things started to get dicey as the Ruthless Aggression era came in and culture began to diverge in ways Vince doesn't really grasp.

Hogan came up with the character(by basically stealing everything Billy Graham did). But there would be no Hulk Hogan that we know today if Vince didn't know how to properly market him. He saw money in Hulk and knew he just needed a bigger platform to become a megastar. That was Vince's vision.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Apr 18, 2022 15:18:06 GMT -5 Raw is Doodie101 said:

Apr 18, 2022 14:58:26 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

I think Hogan is more the Vince mould than you're giving him credit for here. He definitely took him and used him, but '80s Vince absolutely knew how to capitalize on him and used him to make his ideal product. Hogan wasn't a Vince creation but I think it's safe to call it a Vince product through and through. Vince knew how to do the '80s and one of the biggest issues he ran into was trying to still keep those patterns moving into the '90s. In the '90s is when the pressure was on him to change and have to adapt into something else, and tro listen to other people more about what he was doing. And it worked, but then those people he listened to left and culture moved on, and that's where things started to get dicey as the Ruthless Aggression era came in and culture began to diverge in ways Vince doesn't really grasp.

Hogan came up with the character(by basically stealing everything Billy Graham did). But there would be no Hulk Hogan that we know today if Vince didn't know how to properly market him. He saw money in Hulk and knew he just needed a bigger platform to become a megastar. That was Vince's vision.

Vince was the guy with the vision of what prime time, national wrestling could be. Hulk Hogan was the guy with a character perfectly built for that. He could have been a star under Verne, but not like what Vince could do with him, and Hogan was absolutely made for Vince. That was why the second Vince got the company from his father he singled out Hulk and brought him back into the fold, then began the monster push. Hogan was the first choice from the word go.

[A Platypus Rave]

Apr 18, 2022 14:58:26 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Apr 18, 2022 14:54:42 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Hulkmania began in another company. WWF only added the a.

Austin was not the WWF style babyface. They went with him anyway.

What was the common thread here? Vince was under the gun. In both cases he was desperate not to go out of business.

When Vince has been comfortable he wants to do things his way. And his way usually sucks.

I think Hogan is more the Vince mould than you're giving him credit for here. He definitely took him and used him, but '80s Vince absolutely knew how to capitalize on him and used him to make his ideal product. Hogan wasn't a Vince creation but I think it's safe to call it a Vince product through and through. Vince knew how to do the '80s and one of the biggest issues he ran into was trying to still keep those patterns moving into the '90s. In the '90s is when the pressure was on him to change and have to adapt into something else, and tro listen to other people more about what he was doing. And it worked, but then those people he listened to left and culture moved on, and that's where things started to get dicey as the Ruthless Aggression era came in and culture began to diverge in ways Vince doesn't really grasp.

Yeah, the one thing that Vince McMahon was REALLY good at especially in the 80's was what his title used to be called. He was an expert Promoting.

the WWF Promotion machine is what absolutely propelled Hulk Hogan from popular wrestler to 80's pop culture icon. Vince knew what people wanted in the 80s' they wanted over the top Schwarzenegger and Stallone style action heroes... and that is basically exactly what Vince marketed Hogan as.

Could Vince have taken any schlub and forced him to be the icon? Absolutely not. But Hogan is not Hogan without Vince behind him either.

And on the Luger/Warrior front neither of their pushes were flat out unmitigated disasters either. Both got REALLY over for a short amount of time.

Luger was extremely over against Yoko at Summerslam... and the fact Vince got greedy and thought he could push it to mania is what made it fall on it's face... (Especially with Luger celebrating a count out victory making him look like a goof)

Warrior at Mania 6 dude was just as if not more over than Hogan. He fell apart for a few reasons,

dude is way more limited in the ring than Hogan was so there was only so much you could actually do with him.

his character basically being a screaming psychopath makes it hard to actually write storylines for. Yeah, Hogan's promos were filled with nonsense but you could usually like discern a point from them.

Lack of heels... they prety much went right into a rehash of Rude vs. Warrior. They did have Earthquake who just debuted but they gave his first big feud to Hogan which didn't help...

Hogan in general... Hogan knew what was going on and used his influence to sabotage him in anyways he could.

---------

When he was getting his ass kicked by WCW He was willing to listen to other people and do things he really didn't like with the Attitude Era.

He also was willing to pivot later in the Ruthless Aggression Era when Orton failed hard as a face, to Cena... who did get over organically at first with everyone and stayed over with a good portion of the fans.

Afterwards? He basically decided he's making money regardless of what he does so he's going to do what he wants to do because he's Vince McMahon, he's 71 and he's stubborn as f***.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Apr 18, 2022 15:38:44 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Apr 18, 2022 14:58:26 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

I think Hogan is more the Vince mould than you're giving him credit for here. He definitely took him and used him, but '80s Vince absolutely knew how to capitalize on him and used him to make his ideal product. Hogan wasn't a Vince creation but I think it's safe to call it a Vince product through and through. Vince knew how to do the '80s and one of the biggest issues he ran into was trying to still keep those patterns moving into the '90s. In the '90s is when the pressure was on him to change and have to adapt into something else, and tro listen to other people more about what he was doing. And it worked, but then those people he listened to left and culture moved on, and that's where things started to get dicey as the Ruthless Aggression era came in and culture began to diverge in ways Vince doesn't really grasp.

Yeah, the one thing that Vince McMahon was REALLY good at especially in the 80's was what his title used to be called. He was an expert Promoting.

the WWF Promotion machine is what absolutely propelled Hulk Hogan from popular wrestler to 80's pop culture icon. Vince knew what people wanted in the 80s' they wanted over the top Schwarzenegger and Stallone style action heroes... and that is basically exactly what Vince marketed Hogan as.

Could Vince have taken any schlub and forced him to be the icon? Absolutely not. But Hogan is not Hogan without Vince behind him either.

Hogan was absolutely the perfect person for the national expansion. Larger then life, charisma out the ass, and made for national touring. He’s not the dude you need to see live every week or month, but when he made his one or two appearances in your town in a year he was a big f***ing deal. If you see him all the time he loses his mystique, the touring attraction idea worked brilliantly at exploding the WWF into pop culture

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Before Hogan left.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Apr 18, 2022 12:41:24 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

Drew from Dec 19 until his recent nonsense with Corbin is the best they've booked a babyface in a long time.

He got screwed over so badly by COVID. Dude was red hot when they moved to the “No fans” shows and it really, really killed his momentum. I was at a couple shows just before the lockdowns happened and that dude was OVER

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Apr 18, 2022 18:16:07 GMT -5 The Summer of Muskrat XVII said:

Apr 18, 2022 12:41:24 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

Drew from Dec 19 until his recent nonsense with Corbin is the best they've booked a babyface in a long time.

He got screwed over so badly by COVID. Dude was red hot when they moved to the “No fans” shows and it really, really killed his momentum. I was at a couple shows just before the lockdowns happened and that dude was OVER

He’s a complete joke to me. He was in 3MB, then arrived…then the fans went away, not his fault, but now he’s swinging a sword at heels heads and they’re pussies for getting out of the way.

I get it. He’s got a great look, decent in the ring but…be sucks.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Apr 18, 2022 18:29:01 GMT -5 Cranjis McBasketball said:

Apr 18, 2022 18:16:07 GMT -5 The Summer of Muskrat XVII said:

He got screwed over so badly by COVID. Dude was red hot when they moved to the “No fans” shows and it really, really killed his momentum. I was at a couple shows just before the lockdowns happened and that dude was OVER

He’s a complete joke to me. He was in 3MB, then arrived…then the fans went away, not his fault, but now he’s swinging a sword at heels heads and they’re pussies for getting out of the way.

I get it. He’s got a great look, decent in the ring but…be sucks.

Holy f*** the sword gimmick is so stupid. Never introduce a weapon you can’t actually use, it’s pretty basic logic.