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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2022 12:08:58 GMT -5
My issue with Dark is more of a lack of upward momentum, where it seems like people get hot on Dark just so they can be put on Dynamite to job.
I COULD see where Booker is coming from, but his entire logic is "what is this show, I don't know what this show is, I don't want to learn about it, but I believe that it is bad to be on the show if you have any name value".
Again, words of wisdom from the man who claimed he went to TNA for altruistic reasons only to be a real basket case.
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Post by eJm on Apr 20, 2022 12:21:34 GMT -5
Again, a lot of people’s criticisms and concerns would be fully addressed if they just either had a hype segment about the Dark and Elevation going ons or having mini videos going into matches where results lead to Dynamite and Rampage matches.
It might not solve everything but it at least gives a sense to the viewer of why someone earned something and could motivate people to watch those shows more to see what could happen.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Apr 20, 2022 13:17:10 GMT -5
I don't think in isolation there's anything wrong with popping in on the show here and there, but if Dark is all you ever appear on then you might as well not be there. Came to Post this.I think the only person that never will wrestler Dark is Punk. But e everyone else has appeared ,the issues is if you are a DArk Only regular
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Post by simplydurhamcalling on Apr 20, 2022 13:28:27 GMT -5
On the bright side of that, the shows are always there for you to watch. The entire Dark/Elavtation library is on there. If someone is a real big Ruby Soho fan or Shida fan. The match is there if you want to watch it. It’s not hard to pick and choose what on Dark if want to watch it. I don’t blame people who may not have the time. But it’s always there when you have the time. I don't know about anybody else, but it's hard for me to go back and watch wrestling once the first-run moment has passed. I can't get as invested in the match. Except for top tier stuff it's the same for me.
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Post by sportatorium on Apr 20, 2022 13:43:34 GMT -5
If Booker is reading. Rather than a demotion, maybe this is some of the talent working with the company to actually grow it. If you have bigger names on Dark, and that leads to more views. It will allow TK to make a stronger pitch for a streaming deal, an ROH branded show or possibly additional TV content. It certainly sounds better to a streaming partner that we have featured plenty of talent from Dynamite and Rampage on these web shows.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Apr 20, 2022 14:10:25 GMT -5
I think the wrinkle is that Dark and Elevation are not one thing for all of the wrestlers who are on them.
For some, it's more like NXT, where the wrestler is earmarked for things in the future and are currently getting some experience and finding their footing. I doubt that Brock Anderson is intended to stay on Dark forever, for example, and he's a prime example of a wrestler who should be carefully presented until he's actually able to live up to the inherent market value in a modern-day Arn Anderson redux. Wheeler Yuta would get a lot of solid matches on these shows before he got his eventual push, but that didn't look any different from someone just aimlessly hanging out there.
Then, some wrestlers are on there entirely for bookkeeping their wins and losses. Wrestlers getting a quick win or three before or after a major match is standard booking, and the webshows are used to kind of put all of that in one place, for good and ill. There's a seemingly unintended effect that some of these wrestlers never stop just being a JTTS (Ricky Starks and Will Hobbs seem to be escaping that, though), and that's where I put most of my own criticism because I think it's the part that's actually going amiss. Lance Archer and Nyla Rose are the ones most clearly in this category, because their standard shtick in between feuds is suited to the format.
Other wrestlers show up to pop a number on Youtube. I don't think there's any other reason the Hardys are starting to show up on Elevation. I think I have solid ground to stand on in guessing that Tony Khan doesn't want Dark and Elevation to get international total viewership of a third Dynamite's US viewership, and if it were possible, he would want the web shows to be seen by more people, so there's a reason for someone like Jeff Hardy or Maki Itoh or Jon Moxley to show up on the show because they're a draw.
But there are, in fact, some wrestlers for whom residence on the webshows is a sign that they're going nowhere. Big Swole, Joey Janela, and Jack Evans were all clearly in this category well before they were done with their contracts, and it's telling that Swole claimed that her entire feud with Diamante was the two of them having enough freedom to make the most of being stuck on Dark, but not enough pull to move up in the world even if the feud was good.
So then there's ambiguity as to which of these roles some wrestlers are in. For example - which of these categories is Sonny Kiss in? He's young and promising, like Brock Anderson and Skye Blue, but he's also consistently over moreso than they are, and he's also not made very many TV appearances the way Wheeler Yuta did prior to his big push. I don't know that I can say with certainty whether Sonny Kiss is a developmental project or an expired contract in the waiting. Is Emi Sakura being pigeonholed as a player coach who's giving the greenhorns some education on how to structure a tag match, or has she been deemed a poor fit for the TV product for reasons that can only be speculated? All we know is that she's not happy about it, and she doesn't seem to have a firm answer as to why she hasn't gotten a TV match since her return.
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Post by Ecks Ecks Ringout Ecks Ecks on Apr 20, 2022 14:50:17 GMT -5
Bookers been irrelevant for a long time now. Its been said before, but having clips/recaps of whats happening on Dark during Dynamite would improve things immeasurably. Definitely this. Not a perfect solution, but it'd be a huge improvement. The results ticker thing isn't enough, they can spare 5 minutes of a 2-hour show for a quick weekly recap. It's hit or miss whether I have time to watch the YouTube shows each week, so it'd be massively helpful for me. Occasionally BTE has segments relevant to TV angles, I'd throw those in the weekly recap as well.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 20, 2022 15:06:56 GMT -5
Think people slating Booker are being a bit harsh. He said it in conversation on his own podcast, he didn't take out an op-ed somewhere specifically to shit on Dark.
And he's also not arguing that these shows suck or shouldn't exist... just that an established guy like he was would consider them a demotion compared to working on the 'A' show. Which it unequivocally is. Almost by definition they are.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Apr 20, 2022 15:21:22 GMT -5
Yeah, as long as they don't live on Dark *coughRubyANDEmicough* then I don't count it as a demotion. Mox, the Bucks, the Hardy's, and other big players have had matches on there without it being a demotion. It's when you are stuck down there when it gets to be a problem.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 20, 2022 15:28:02 GMT -5
Think people slating Booker are being a bit harsh. He said it in conversation on his own podcast, he didn't take out an op-ed somewhere specifically to shit on Dark. And he's also not arguing that these shows suck or shouldn't exist... just that an established guy like he was would consider them a demotion compared to working on the 'A' show. Which it unequivocally is. Almost by definition they are. And we're commenting on it on a forum. If we were sending him messages calling him a dickhead or mocking him on a more visible platform like Twitter, I think it could be seen as an inappropriate response, but it's him admitting to having a poor understanding of what Dark even is, but then slagging it as a no man's land. If someone posted something like that here, people would also call them out on talking out of their ass. I think it's fair.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 20, 2022 15:46:06 GMT -5
I sympathize with his view, because AEW themselves clearly considers Dark to be a realm of nothingness. It's just how they deal with their roster bloat, and it's a bad way of trying to deal with their roster bloat, and they don't care enough to try and fix it.
Personally, I like watching the webshows more than I like watching Dynamite, in some ways. On those, I can close my eyes and pretend someone like Diamante or Sonny Kiss or John Silver or Angelico is ACTUALLY FOR REAL signed to a major wrestling company, when the truth is they're kinda not.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 20, 2022 17:19:51 GMT -5
I sympathize with his view, because AEW themselves clearly considers Dark to be a realm of nothingness. It's just how they deal with their roster bloat, and it's a bad way of trying to deal with their roster bloat, and they don't care enough to try and fix it. Personally, I like watching the webshows more than I like watching Dynamite, in some ways. On those, I can close my eyes and pretend someone like Diamante or Sonny Kiss or John Silver or Angelico is ACTUALLY FOR REAL signed to a major wrestling company, when the truth is they're kinda not. We have little storylines, had a lot of storyline development this week alone, and DARK is used to get wrestlers reps and younger stars working with veterans themselves, you can't really do that with just three hours of TV. Yes they have a large roster, but a lot of people working DARK is a good thing for reps and experience, there's more to it imo than just "Roster Bloat", especially when Elevation and DARK have kinda shrunk down to 6-8 matches each a week, and not yknow... 17 like they used to. I do get the notion however, that there should be MORE, at least more of a connection to the main shows, like Shafir's highlight package showing her dominating on DARK, more of that. And while the other three haven't been featured on Dynamite in a long time, John Silver has main evented multiple Rampage's, and been featured on multiple Dynamite's, he's super over and he's been featured a lot, don't get the notion that he's "pretend signed". Angelico just came back from a serious injury himself but before that he did have a lot of Dynamite matches and features, I'd like to see him featured again, Diamante's been used as a women's vet with some little storylines on DARK which I appreciate, but I do agree I dont know what they're doing with Sonny, he seems like a long term project and always has, but if Jade's making a Baddie's stable, I'd put him right in it.
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Post by mystermystery on Apr 20, 2022 17:27:24 GMT -5
As someone without regular cable access, Dark/Elevation are the majority of my AEW consumption, so I enjoy seeing some of the bigger talent show up from time to time.
The Keith Lee/Shane Strickland team roughing up QT's Foundry duo would be 4 minutes on Dynamite and half of that time would be Team Taz showing up to taunt after the match but on Elevation it goes nearly 10, has ups and downs, and still establishes who the bigger/better team is while getting Comoroto more interactions with people he should really be matching up with on Dynamite sometime next year and overall being a fun match with only QT related shenanigans.
Plus, they feature Serpentico and that is what professional wrestling is all about. Serpentico for Emperor!
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Post by Blade on Apr 21, 2022 22:55:30 GMT -5
Now come on, don't be so hard on Booker. This is clearly calling back to when he was drafted to Smackdown and turned heel because it was the "B show" and he was too big a star to be slumming it there, which was great for the like month he had with it before he feuded with Undertaker and ended up unsuccessfully trying to beat him with magic voodoo dirt.
(Never forget.)
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 22, 2022 2:44:56 GMT -5
On the bright side of that, the shows are always there for you to watch. The entire Dark/Elavtation library is on there. If someone is a real big Ruby Soho fan or Shida fan. The match is there if you want to watch it. It’s not hard to pick and choose what on Dark if want to watch it. I don’t blame people who may not have the time. But it’s always there when you have the time. I don't know about anybody else, but it's hard for me to go back and watch wrestling once the first-run moment has passed. I can't get as invested in the match. Absolutely with you. There was a time when I would watch every single bit of AEW that I could from start to finish, but once there were two Darks I stopped watching that unless I was seeking out a specific match, Rampage almost never has real plot development on it these days - being in the UK, if I've not watched all of Dynamite by the end of Thursday that week, I'll probably not watch it or be skipping some of it unless I know there's a match I want to see. If I'm off work, and happen to be awake, I will watch literally any AEW show, but at least half the fun there comes from being in the live thread.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 22, 2022 2:54:51 GMT -5
I don't know about anybody else, but it's hard for me to go back and watch wrestling once the first-run moment has passed. I can't get as invested in the match. Absolutely with you. There was a time when I would watch every single bit of AEW that I could from start to finish, but once there were two Darks I stopped watching that unless I was seeking out a specific match, Rampage almost never has real plot development on it these days - being in the UK, if I've not watched all of Dynamite by the end of Thursday that week, I'll probably not watch it or be skipping some of it unless I know there's a match I want to see. If I'm off work, and happen to be awake, I will watch literally any AEW show, but at least half the fun there comes from being in the live thread. Rampage has had nothing but plot development on it the last few weeks. Khan apparently made it a priority and said he'd become a bit lax with the cards and wanted more people to treat it as a must see show. Like we just had Cole vs Hangman for the world title in a Texas Deathmatch last week, I don't know what more you need in terms of development but that was quite literally a feud ending match for the top belt. Say what you want about DARK, which imo has also been doing it's best to integrate little storylines and plot development to the show itself as well, but Rampage has been looking great the last few weeks imo.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Apr 22, 2022 3:04:41 GMT -5
Absolutely with you. There was a time when I would watch every single bit of AEW that I could from start to finish, but once there were two Darks I stopped watching that unless I was seeking out a specific match, Rampage almost never has real plot development on it these days - being in the UK, if I've not watched all of Dynamite by the end of Thursday that week, I'll probably not watch it or be skipping some of it unless I know there's a match I want to see. If I'm off work, and happen to be awake, I will watch literally any AEW show, but at least half the fun there comes from being in the live thread. Rampage has had nothing but plot development on it the last few weeks. Khan apparently made it a priority and said he'd become a bit lax with the cards and wanted more people to treat it as a must see show. Like we just had Cole vs Hangman for the world title in a Texas Deathmatch last week, I don't know what more you need in terms of development but that was quite literally a feud ending match for the top belt. Say what you want about DARK, which imo has also been doing it's best to integrate little storylines and plot development to the show itself as well, but Rampage has been looking great the last few weeks imo. The Cole/Hangman match is a good point - and actually they had the Yuta/Mox match the other week too, but prior to recently I had just stopped watching Rampage at all for many weeks and missed almost no real plot beats whatsoever. I'm glad Tony's noticed that if he's trying to correct it now.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 22, 2022 3:53:49 GMT -5
Rampage has had nothing but plot development on it the last few weeks. Khan apparently made it a priority and said he'd become a bit lax with the cards and wanted more people to treat it as a must see show. Like we just had Cole vs Hangman for the world title in a Texas Deathmatch last week, I don't know what more you need in terms of development but that was quite literally a feud ending match for the top belt. Say what you want about DARK, which imo has also been doing it's best to integrate little storylines and plot development to the show itself as well, but Rampage has been looking great the last few weeks imo. The Cole/Hangman match is a good point - and actually they had the Yuta/Mox match the other week too, but prior to recently I had just stopped watching Rampage at all for many weeks and missed almost no real plot beats whatsoever. I'm glad Tony's noticed that if he's trying to correct it now. The weeks before that they also had almost the entirety of Starks/Hobbs vs Lee/Strickland, which has been nothing but banger matches tbh, also a lot of Danhausen and HOOK among other developments like House of Black's inability to keep Fuego Del Sol down, and as you said, Mox/Yuta, arguably the most talked about AEW match in a hot minute for good reason. It's good that Khan is seeing this and correcting it, the cards are feeling more must see, even this week you have Kingston vs Garcia, Ishii vs Cole, and Shafir vs Jade which has been given weeks of build and will be the second women's main event on an AEW show in the span of a week. Glad to see the positive improvements.
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