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Post by sungod2020 on Jun 30, 2022 12:23:23 GMT -5
So one of the biggest complaints about pro wrestling is no-selling because it exposes the business and shows how fake it is. Rarely has pro wrestling and logic seen eye to eye and in order to believe what you're watching is real, you need to suspend your disbelief, and there are times when it can be difficult to do even for the most seasoned of fans. It can be ridiculous out-there storylines(anything involving supernatural beings such as Undertaker, Kane, Bray Wyatt), actions you can't get away with in the real World without legal repercussions(such as Bubba Ray powerbombing Mae Young through a table), or moves that you would NEVER see in a real fight(such as the people's elbow or the worm).
While many pro wrestling maneuvers are derived from moves you see in a real life fights(such as a headlock), over 90% of them are impossible to pull off without your opponents cooperation. An example would be in my English class back when I was in 9th grade. A fight broke out between two of my classmates, and one was going for a piledriver and while he DID have the upperhand in that fight, he wasn't able to lift the person who would've been on the receiving end of it off the ground. Maybe he simply wasn't strong enough to do it. Is there such thing as a real life piledriver? Even so, it always requires the other person's cooperation in a worked match.
This is where no-selling can potentially(and has) exposing the business comes in. An example would be in their 1988 cage match involving Lex Luger vs. Bruiser Brody. Mid match Brody wasn't selling for Luger's punches, and that (legit) scared the Total Package that he ran out of the cage fearing for his safety. This resulted in DQing Luger(shouldn't he have won the match, or does that work differently in the NWA?)
While that certainly was a kayfabe breaking moment, what are times when no-selling can be believable?
I remember a complaint on one of the other forms that when Hulk Hogan and Ultimate Warrior no-sold their opponents punches towards the end of the match, it negated everything that happened before that point. While their "Hulking Up" may look silly to the non-wrestling person(and their wrestling fan detractors), it can be seen that there comes a certain point where the adrenaline kicks in and it dosen't allow them to take anymore punishment from their adversaries. The fact that they are big jacked up guys makes it believable(in my view) that once their opponent crosses that threshold, they are impervious to pain. Now if that was Spike Dudley who did that(no sell his opponents offense after a certain point in the match) THEN I can see how suspension of disbelief being thrown out the window.
Another example would be a much bigger guys such as Big Show, Great Khali, Undertaker(especially in his early days), Ryback etc no-sell their much smaller or weaker opponents punches or any moves, especially if they are much lower on the card, if not straight up jobbers. It's not believable to think they can inflict any damage to these monsters, if they could, them selling would look unrealistic. If anything should be questioned, it should be why those poor saps were signed to wrestle those monsters in the first place since it would be an unfair fight waiting to happen.
Any examples you can think of?
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Jun 30, 2022 12:40:31 GMT -5
Re: Brody/Lugar, NWA didn't have the "escape the cage" rule. So that was just Lugar abandoning the match.
I get the adrenaline thing from Hogan and Warrior, but I really wish they would have figured out different ways to do it. Like with Hogan it was always the finisher that gives him the power to Hulk Up. Why not mix it up? Hell, that can even protect a finisher if the guy doesn't gets to hit it on Hogan.
With that side bar out of the way, I like what I call the temporary "no sell" where a guy gets hit with something, no sells it long enough to do something to the other guy, then sells the original move. To me that's a better version of the adrenaline burst. Like "Yea that shit hurt like mad, but I'm gonna push through it to kick your ass! Yea, f*** you pal!...Oh shit...*fall*"
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jun 30, 2022 18:56:49 GMT -5
Undertaker sitting up after Michaels hits him with Sweet Chin Music is when the first Hell in a Cell match really escalates into the classic it's known for.
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Post by fw91 on Jun 30, 2022 19:00:37 GMT -5
Early Undertaker. It made him
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Post by tafkaga on Jun 30, 2022 19:13:07 GMT -5
Sometimes what people call "no-selling" is not no-selling.
Goldberg, imo, was very good at selling. He sold in a way that was appropriate for his character, i.e. he could be momentarily dazed but he would quickly recover like Jason Vorhees. Early Taker is the same way. A different type of selling, but not no-selling.
Examples of no-selling to me would be guys who just sucked at it. Roddy Piper couldn't sell worth shit. Lou Albano didn't even try. Kevin Sullivan seemed like sometimes he would just get caught up in the action and forget that selling was something he should do.
As for believable no-selling that was legitimately no-selling, the Road Warriors are the only example I can think of. Jobber matches aside, I think it worked for their characters when they would pop up after taking a slam or a piledriver. It contributed to the borderline superhuman nature of their characters, but they didn't do it so often that they were corny or
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Post by James Fabiano on Jun 30, 2022 19:32:08 GMT -5
It kept an aged Andre the Giant legitimized to me. As most guys could only get a lucky shot in, then they were screwed.
Big Bubba. The wooden chair. That is all.
Zeus no selling made younger me not even think about this just being a silly actor.
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Post by ChitownKnight on Jun 30, 2022 21:38:40 GMT -5
Drew kicking out at 1 for the F-5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2022 22:29:22 GMT -5
I have zero need for believability in my wrestling, but I always mark out for the babyface finally hulking up and no-selling. Hogan and Warrior did that well, but I think Sting might have been the best at it.
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Post by mystermystery on Jun 30, 2022 22:54:46 GMT -5
No Selling works a lot with me. Usually in jobber matches.
AEW has some top tier moments of no-selling on Dark. Keith Lee looking around like "Can you believe this dude thought his punch would HURT ME?!" before chucking people into orbit is fantastic.
I always like the no-selling into selling approach that you'll get when someone like John Silver is fighting a dude two feet taller than him. They go from no-selling to him countering and taking control which is a good use to show the no-seller was overconfident in their size and ability to absorb damage. Storytelling, yay!
Also, just to note, Sting's no-selling of the Super Kick Party literally emboldened my actual existence.
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jun 30, 2022 23:06:03 GMT -5
I don't know if it counts as incredible no-selling, or intestinal-fortitude, but any time I see someone take OC's leg kicks I'm amazed they're still standing after 1.
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Post by J. Hova on Jun 30, 2022 23:16:25 GMT -5
It kept an aged Andre the Giant legitimized to me. As most guys could only get a lucky shot in, then they were screwed. Big Bubba. The wooden chair. That is all. Zeus no selling made younger me not even think about this just being a silly actor. Funny story about Bubba, that chair was supposed to be gimmicked. Emphasis on supposed to be.
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Post by El Pollo Guerrera on Jul 1, 2022 0:16:24 GMT -5
It works when it's a madman or a monster, like Andre or Abdullah or Brody.
It doesn't work when it's a wrestler who is just 'booked that way'. Not long ago I saw a Freebirds/Von Erich cage match where Kevin had Terry Gordy in a Claw in his right hand, Buddy Roberts in a Claw on his left hand, and he just flat-out ignores Michael Hayes hitting him in the head twice with a cowboy boot followed by an eye-rake.
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Post by Bad Moon on Jul 1, 2022 15:00:26 GMT -5
With that side bar out of the way, I like what I call the temporary "no sell" where a guy gets hit with something, no sells it long enough to do something to the other guy, then sells the original move. To me that's a better version of the adrenaline burst. Like "Yea that shit hurt like mad, but I'm gonna push through it to kick your ass! Yea, f*** you pal!...Oh shit...*fall*" This is like 90% of strong style psychology. It's not about no-selling and spamming big moves on one another, it's about not showing weakness to your opponent and staying composed. It's not that the tenth chest chop was so much harder than the first nine that eventually puts the guy on his back, it's that he exhausted himself trying not to show how much the first nine hurt.
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Post by chronocross on Jul 1, 2022 15:07:27 GMT -5
As a kid, I loved it when Hogan kicked out of a finisher and hulked up to get the win. Of course after some years it got tiresome but during the Hulkamania heyday it got the crowd up off their feet.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 1, 2022 15:22:04 GMT -5
Hulking up was a big part of Hulk Hogan's superhero-like aura. Especially since he was one of the best sellers around.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 1, 2022 15:28:17 GMT -5
When it’s in the context of the wrestler being so full of adrenaline they’re shrugging off their pain momentarily, I’m fine with it.
Even the Hulk-Up is easy to buy into in that regard, if the idea was that Hogan had been battered by the heel and he *did* feel it, but that second wind, i.e. Hulkamania, that he got was so intense he could come back with devastating offensive flurries after sustaining a ton of punishment. Like he has no other winds after this, he’s got to put the opponent away with *this* now, or he’s losing.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Jul 1, 2022 15:34:28 GMT -5
I have zero need for believability in my wrestling, but I always mark out for the babyface finally hulking up and no-selling. Hogan and Warrior did that well, but I think Sting might have been the best at it. Sting no selling Jarrett's guitar shot looked so incredibly badass.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 1, 2022 15:34:56 GMT -5
With that side bar out of the way, I like what I call the temporary "no sell" where a guy gets hit with something, no sells it long enough to do something to the other guy, then sells the original move. To me that's a better version of the adrenaline burst. Like "Yea that shit hurt like mad, but I'm gonna push through it to kick your ass! Yea, f*** you pal!...Oh shit...*fall*" This is like 90% of strong style psychology. It's not about no-selling and spamming big moves on one another, it's about not showing weakness to your opponent and staying composed. It's not that the tenth chest chop was so much harder than the first nine that eventually puts the guy on his back, it's that he exhausted himself trying not to show how much the first nine hurt. Yep, which always brings me back to what I think is key when talking about this matter: there's no single way to "sell properly", there's a whole variety of methods that can work under the right circumstances, booking, storytelling, psychology, etc. Whenever I hear someone shit-talk a different style of wrestling saying "he's not selling that right, it kills it!", part of me wonders if they're even listening to the crowd reaction or watching the match in a context that's not just the one they grew up around. Back in 2005 when CM Punk had what was supposed to be his final ROH match, his world title shot at then-champ Austin Aries, Punk was insanely over for that match, with fans sad to see him leaving for WWE and thus making him into the biggest babyface in the world for that night. Aries heeled it up appropriately in response, and at one point decided to insult Punk by hitting him with his own finisher, the Pepsi Plunge. Punk's response was to kick out at one, and the place went apeshit, it was one of the coolest moments I've ever been in a live crowd for. I can recall getting back home and later seeing discourse over whether Punk was right to do that, and I couldn't comprehend how anyone could watch that moment and not get caught up in the melodrama of it all. Beyond that, I always kind of laugh at the idea that there's a "realistic" way to sell; yes, there are certain moves that can be sold in more appropriate ways (Ricky Steamboat was famous for studying how boxers' bodies would react after different kinds of head and body blows), but like, in the past I've seen people complain that Wrestler A kicked out of, let's say, a superplex from Wrestler B as if it was "unrealistic" when, dude...Wrestler A really took a superplex! He took the actual move, you can't fake falling from the top rope onto your back. If they're able to kick out at 2 from that, is that not, by definition, "realistic"? It's the same issue I take with someone complaining that "Wrestler C got his leg worked over, now he isn't selling it!"...again, in a real life athletic situation, not every injury or pain visited upon a body part leads to said body part becoming useless; adrenaline is a thing, as are bumps and bruises simply not being that serious. Go ahead and argue a worked over limb should work into a match's story, or say that it should be played up to get your opponent over as a dangerous technical wrestler, but don't talk to me about "realism" when that's not how real life injuries work. Of course, that then gets into an entirely different conversation: does not fully selling certain kinds of offense too much lead to audiences expecting and demanding bigger and harder hitting moves, which might ultimately be detrimental to the health of the wrestlers involved? Again, though, that's a different conversation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2022 15:40:44 GMT -5
One of my biggest pet peeves in the world is when people call things "No selling" when they aren't
I have seen people post a clip of Shibata "no selling" the rainmaker a thousand times where he gets hit with it, is visibly affected and forces himself through sheer force of will to stay up. It's the exact opposite of a no sell. People still call it that all the time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Jul 1, 2022 17:22:22 GMT -5
Generally I hate no selling but the exceptions are:
Samoan/Maki Itoh hard head, just one of those things that makes wrestling wrestling.
Sting. The old guy no selling for upcoming stars? I should hate it, I would if someone like Goldberg did the same but somehow it's great when Sting does it. Was also cool in his younger days but it just works better now for some reason.
Undertaker. Kane and Big show to a lesser extent. Chair to the back, no sell, heel f***ed up moment. Stupid but I love it and it's no coincidence Sting does that to.
Hogan hulking up at wm18, for one night it won me over. Ok that whole nostalgia run.
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