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Post by stoptheclocks on Jul 13, 2022 17:45:12 GMT -5
Why do fans act as if *no one* was appreciating Danielson backstage even after he won belt after belt and he was clearly being presented as a star? Because it's WWE's insistence on what kind of a star you're going to be. There will always be guys who are the main draw, then there are guys who are regulated to being made champion who are never promoted as *the* guy. Regardless of what individual people think, the fan base in 2013 DESPERATELY made it clear that they wanted Daniel Bryan to be "the guy". And what did WWE do? They pulled the rug out from underneath him again and again. Sure they "gave him the WWE title" for like 30 seconds...then again for less than 24 hours...surely that's enough, right? Let's call it what it was, it was filler until the next big PPV. The fact of the matter is that Bryan may have been well liked by his peers, fans and the company alike...but the company never viewed him as the draw along the same lines as a John Cena or Randy Orton. So many wrestlers are seen as belt warmers, guys who are competent enough to be seen as relatively top guys but never the tippy top. It's like if Vince saw the value that Steve Austin was providing, but always treating him as the 3rd or 4th most important guy on the card. Yeah, he might get the belt, but it's only there as a distraction until Shawn and Undertaker headline a big PPV or something. Again, this is speculative in regards to how far Bryan could have gone, but the fan support was there, that's inarguable. The time to 'make' Bryan was at SummerSlam 2013 and once again, they treat him as this plucky little guy who is there to keep Orton busy for a few months. Time after time WWE will take someone's grassroots heat and try to transfer it to someone else. It's why the Summer of Punk became about Triple H being the only guy who refused to walk out. It's why the Yes movement was attempted to transfer to Big Show, and afterward have Bryan join the Wyatt family. The end goal that we got at WM30 was not the direction the that the company was going to go with, but enough factors forced their hand, when it should have never been that difficult. There's a difference between being just a star and being given the position that you rightfully earned through your presentation. WWE has and always undervalues a lot of their 'stars' potential under the guise that they'll get a push, only to be jilted all over the card; one moment you're the World champion, the next moment you're in a ladder match with 7 other guys fighting for the IC title. Imagine if they had peak Stone Cold, Undertaker or Rock in those kinds of positions. At the end of the day, WWE failed the Daniel Bryan experiment, just like they have so many others; Sheamus, Ambrose, Big E, Punk, Wyatt and Kofi. All were guys, but never 'The Guy'. Counterpoint would be that only a handful of guys ever have been 'The Guy', so there's no shame in not being presented like John Cena or The Rock. There is also no comparison between how strongly Bryan and Punk were booked compared to some of the others you mention. It's impossible to separate those guys popularity from the sense that the WWE wasn't that keen on them. It was a huge part of both of their characters and they simply wouldn't have been over in the same way - or to the same level - had the WWE been unambiguously behind them the whole way.
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thehottag
Don Corleone
We're here for one reason only: fame, fortune, & the World Wrestling Federation Tag Team Champions!
Posts: 1,668
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Post by thehottag on Jul 13, 2022 17:47:28 GMT -5
When HHH says he's going to "put you over" and you know in your heart that either means he's going to make it an interminable build capped by a huge slog of a match where you might win but ultimately get nothing out of it or more likely he does what he did with Goldberg and others and decides at the last minute that it's better that he wins this one, actually, to get more heat for the rematch where he'll for sure put you over and it won't be ineffectual and too late...well, there's only one way to react: Yeah, definitely this. Like, I believe Punk when he says it doesn't matter if he was going to win or lose, because he was just sick of it all at that point. But I am absolutely positive that, if it did go ahead, Trips would've changed things so he could go over (especially at 'Mania). Maybe he'd get into Vince's ear about Punk's contract coming up, maybe there'd be leaked reports about 'attitude problems', maybe Hunter would float the idea of doing a secondary match later on where Punk would 'get his win back' (which would probably end up not happening). However it happens, Trips goes over somehow, because Kliq is gonna Kliq.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
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Posts: 122,019
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 13, 2022 17:48:15 GMT -5
They could have had some fun promos as long as they didn’t steer too far into worked shoot territory but I don’t trust either guy not to go there. The match would’ve probably been average. They didn’t seem to have much chemistry during their 2011 match and 3 years later Punk was a lot more beaten up. He didn’t really have any good matches after the Summerslam one with Brock and I don’t think HHH would’ve been good enough to drag anything great out of an injured and unmotivated Punk. Punk’s “you need this match, not me” quote about this match never made sense to me. It was basically the other way around. The match would have been a big step down for HHH at the time. Bryan was the hotter guy, the person he was feuding with since Summerslam and they ended up having an amazing match. Meanwhile, if Punk stuck around a win over HHH at WM30 (and it was reported he was planned to go over) would be the biggest thing he could realistically do on the show with who was available. Bryan was winning the title, Lesnar was facing Taker and Cena was busy with Wyatt. I agree with Punk honestly. Every Mania match HHH had after the Taker ones except Seth felt like someone trying to cling to relevancy. For a lot of them, I would agree with you, but I would stand by the Bryan and Batista ones any day of the week. Bryan was just a really goddamn good match and satisfying payoff, and Batista because it was who Batista specifically wanted for his final match, even if it should have probably been 5-10 minutes shorter.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 3,283
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Post by tirtefaa on Jul 13, 2022 18:29:16 GMT -5
All of those people you mentioned are massive wrestling stars. Like, what? Massive compared to who? None of them were booked as "the main attraction" despite being champion. No one is going to say that Sheamus or Kofi Kingston were ever on the level as a John Cena or Randy Orton. Most made "main eventers" now are essentially pegs that are there to fit whatever hole the card has at that moment. It's impossible to separate those guys popularity from the sense that the WWE wasn't that keen on them. It was a huge part of both of their characters and they simply wouldn't have been over in the same way - or to the same level - had the WWE been unambiguously behind them the whole way. The fact of the matter is, WWE hardly ever tried. It's easy to say that WWE was right in every scenario because there's no alternate reality to tell us otherwise. But no one is going to convince me that there wasn't a huge opportunity with guys like Bryan, who had the most universal support from the audience in over a decade.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Jul 13, 2022 19:28:07 GMT -5
All of those people you mentioned are massive wrestling stars. Like, what? Massive compared to who? None of them were booked as "the main attraction" despite being champion. No one is going to say that Sheamus or Kofi Kingston were ever on the level as a John Cena or Randy Orton. Most made "main eventers" now are essentially pegs that are there to fit whatever hole the card has at that moment. It's impossible to separate those guys popularity from the sense that the WWE wasn't that keen on them. It was a huge part of both of their characters and they simply wouldn't have been over in the same way - or to the same level - had the WWE been unambiguously behind them the whole way. The fact of the matter is, WWE hardly ever tried. It's easy to say that WWE was right in every scenario because there's no alternate reality to tell us otherwise. But no one is going to convince me that there wasn't a huge opportunity with guys like Bryan, who had the most universal support from the audience in over a decade. You’re talking as if Bryan’s WWE run was a failure when it was a overwhelming success. The success levels of Cena and Rock were dependent on levels outside of their in ring work. Shit, Danielson was singing WWE’s praises when he went to AEW. You can’t close a 70,000 seat Mania with two world belts on top of numerous other achievements and not have at least some of that opportunity taken advantage of. I’m not painting Hunter as some secret benevolent and egoless guy, but in my eyes, Punk, Bryan and Rollins eventually became Chosen Ones. Crossover fame is something totally different, and it’s extremely rare. There’s no shame in WWE not pushing the ROH boys to that level, even as they’re becoming legends.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Jul 13, 2022 19:32:17 GMT -5
It's impossible to separate those guys popularity from the sense that the WWE wasn't that keen on them. Which, of course, in reality they actually were. That’s the hilarious part.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 3,283
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Post by tirtefaa on Jul 13, 2022 19:51:35 GMT -5
You’re talking as if Bryan’s WWE run was a failure when it was a overwhelming success. The success levels of Cena and Rock were dependent on levels outside of their in ring work. Danielson was singing WWE’s praises when he went to AEW. You can’t close a 70,000 seat Mania with two world belts on top of numerous other achievements and not have at least some of that opportunity taken advantage of. You're missing my point. In terms of what could have happened with Bryan is absolutely a failure. I don't want to sit here and fantasy book, but they spent months relegating him to the status of plucky underdog while Cena was injured, only because WWE felt they could manufacture their own narrative and piggyback off of how over Bryan was. It doesn't matter that Bryan won at Mania in front of 70,000 people while holding two belts. WWE had to be dragged to that point, kicking and screaming. As far as success outside the ring? Well Cena definitely got that success AFTER the company pushed him to the moon and back, not that they were wrong in doing so, and the Rock had cross-over appeal during his main event run, so it's not like they weren't established top guys beforehand. And for a while there, the 'Yes Movement' did have cross over appeal, something that WWE thought they could replicate with 'Fandangoing'. So again, it's a condition that WWE underutilized Bryan for the role he was likely capable of doing. I'm not saying this because I think WWE is evil or something, I'm stating it because they are tone-deaf to their own arrogance when it comes to what fans want and how to give them what they want. They may like Bryan and Bryan may like them, but that doesn't negate from the fact that they weren't rewarding Bryan for the value he was giving to the company. If I have company and I have a worker who enjoys working for me and they work hard, yet I don't provide them the opportunity to advance in the company? That's not good. You can even say it's exploitive to some degree.
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krozor
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,427
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Post by krozor on Jul 13, 2022 20:10:17 GMT -5
Re: them never really wanting Danielson to be over, let's not forget that the build to Wrestlemania 31 involved them sending Ziggler and Ambrose - two guys who were also extremely well-liked by fans at the time - out to call Danielson "a turd" over and over again and claim everyone backstage also secretly felt this way about him. They were still desperate to find some way, anyway, to take the shine of him somehow, but they couldn't do it.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 14, 2022 8:39:31 GMT -5
Why do fans act as if *no one* was appreciating Danielson backstage even after he won belt after belt and he was clearly being presented as a star? Because it's WWE's insistence on what kind of a star you're going to be. There will always be guys who are the main draw, then there are guys who are regulated to being made champion who are never promoted as *the* guy. Regardless of what individual people think, the fan base in 2013 DESPERATELY made it clear that they wanted Daniel Bryan to be "the guy". And what did WWE do? They pulled the rug out from underneath him again and again. Sure they "gave him the WWE title" for like 30 seconds...then again for less than 24 hours...surely that's enough, right? Let's call it what it was, it was filler until the next big PPV. The fact of the matter is that Bryan may have been well liked by his peers, fans and the company alike...but the company never viewed him as the draw along the same lines as a John Cena or Randy Orton. So many wrestlers are seen as belt warmers, guys who are competent enough to be seen as relatively top guys but never the tippy top. It's like if Vince saw the value that Steve Austin was providing, but always treating him as the 3rd or 4th most important guy on the card. Yeah, he might get the belt, but it's only there as a distraction until Shawn and Undertaker headline a big PPV or something. Again, this is speculative in regards to how far Bryan could have gone, but the fan support was there, that's inarguable. The time to 'make' Bryan was at SummerSlam 2013 and once again, they treat him as this plucky little guy who is there to keep Orton busy for a few months. Time after time WWE will take someone's grassroots heat and try to transfer it to someone else. It's why the Summer of Punk became about Triple H being the only guy who refused to walk out. It's why the Yes movement was attempted to transfer to Big Show, and afterward have Bryan join the Wyatt family. The end goal that we got at WM30 was not the direction the that the company was going to go with, but enough factors forced their hand, when it should have never been that difficult. There's a difference between being just a star and being given the position that you rightfully earned through your presentation. WWE has and always undervalues a lot of their 'stars' potential under the guise that they'll get a push, only to be jilted all over the card; one moment you're the World champion, the next moment you're in a ladder match with 7 other guys fighting for the IC title. Imagine if they had peak Stone Cold, Undertaker or Rock in those kinds of positions. At the end of the day, WWE failed the Daniel Bryan experiment, just like they have so many others; Sheamus, Ambrose, Big E, Punk, Wyatt and Kofi. All were guys, but never 'The Guy'. Bryan was “The Guy.” The whole build and promotion of their biggest show ever at the time centered around him in early 2014. It was his neck issues that stalled that run.
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Post by 06vwgti on Jul 14, 2022 8:51:10 GMT -5
When HHH says he's going to "put you over" and you know in your heart that either means he's going to make it an interminable build capped by a huge slog of a match where you might win but ultimately get nothing out of it or more likely he does what he did with Goldberg and others and decides at the last minute that it's better that he wins this one, actually, to get more heat for the rematch where he'll for sure put you over and it won't be ineffectual and too late...well, there's only one way to react: And this is why I've never been a fan of hunter and think he's overrated as hell
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Post by Feyrhausen on Jul 14, 2022 8:58:16 GMT -5
You’re talking as if Bryan’s WWE run was a failure when it was a overwhelming success. The success levels of Cena and Rock were dependent on levels outside of their in ring work. Danielson was singing WWE’s praises when he went to AEW. You can’t close a 70,000 seat Mania with two world belts on top of numerous other achievements and not have at least some of that opportunity taken advantage of. You're missing my point. In terms of what could have happened with Bryan is absolutely a failure. I don't want to sit here and fantasy book, but they spent months relegating him to the status of plucky underdog while Cena was injured, only because WWE felt they could manufacture their own narrative and piggyback off of how over Bryan was. It doesn't matter that Bryan won at Mania in front of 70,000 people while holding two belts. WWE had to be dragged to that point, kicking and screaming. As far as success outside the ring? Well Cena definitely got that success AFTER the company pushed him to the moon and back, not that they were wrong in doing so, and the Rock had cross-over appeal during his main event run, so it's not like they weren't established top guys beforehand. And for a while there, the 'Yes Movement' did have cross over appeal, something that WWE thought they could replicate with 'Fandangoing'. So again, it's a condition that WWE underutilized Bryan for the role he was likely capable of doing. I'm not saying this because I think WWE is evil or something, I'm stating it because they are tone-deaf to their own arrogance when it comes to what fans want and how to give them what they want. They may like Bryan and Bryan may like them, but that doesn't negate from the fact that they weren't rewarding Bryan for the value he was giving to the company. If I have company and I have a worker who enjoys working for me and they work hard, yet I don't provide them the opportunity to advance in the company? That's not good. You can even say it's exploitive to some degree. Its crazy how people want to defend WWE and their treatment of Punk and Bryan. They want to say how look those guys did a lot and were big stars. Yeah, despite WWE doing everything to either ignore them or actively sabotage them. They got over on their own. Imagine if WWE had gotten over their own issues and pushed them like Rock, Cena, or Reigns. WWE could have maybe found that big mainstream star they say they want.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Jul 14, 2022 13:13:21 GMT -5
You're missing my point. In terms of what could have happened with Bryan is absolutely a failure. I don't want to sit here and fantasy book, but they spent months relegating him to the status of plucky underdog while Cena was injured, only because WWE felt they could manufacture their own narrative and piggyback off of how over Bryan was. It doesn't matter that Bryan won at Mania in front of 70,000 people while holding two belts. WWE had to be dragged to that point, kicking and screaming. As far as success outside the ring? Well Cena definitely got that success AFTER the company pushed him to the moon and back, not that they were wrong in doing so, and the Rock had cross-over appeal during his main event run, so it's not like they weren't established top guys beforehand. And for a while there, the 'Yes Movement' did have cross over appeal, something that WWE thought they could replicate with 'Fandangoing'. So again, it's a condition that WWE underutilized Bryan for the role he was likely capable of doing. I'm not saying this because I think WWE is evil or something, I'm stating it because they are tone-deaf to their own arrogance when it comes to what fans want and how to give them what they want. They may like Bryan and Bryan may like them, but that doesn't negate from the fact that they weren't rewarding Bryan for the value he was giving to the company. If I have company and I have a worker who enjoys working for me and they work hard, yet I don't provide them the opportunity to advance in the company? That's not good. You can even say it's exploitive to some degree. Its crazy how people want to defend WWE and their treatment of Punk and Bryan. They want to say how look those guys did a lot and were big stars. Yeah, despite WWE doing everything to either ignore them or actively sabotage them. They got over on their own. Imagine if WWE had gotten over their own issues and pushed them like Rock, Cena, or Reigns. WWE could have maybe found that big mainstream star they say they want. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I am defending it. The word “treatment” should never be mentioned in terms of a Triple Crown and like a four-time champ. I really don’t give a damn if his longest reign was as a heel. Danielson in WWE had a career that just about any starry eyed indie kid would have a hard time complaining about. Oh no, he went all over the world and entertained millions on television with t-shirts and action figures and he’s got a smoking hot wife. WWE does a lot of stupid stuff but I can’t shake my fist at them with most of the ROH talent as a whole. And they weren’t the only stars of their era who got over organically (actually, no major rise in wrestling is 100% organic, Punk was heavily protected during his first few ECW run). We’re forgetting the big followings Cena and Roman had before the “overexposure” accusations started? And retained even with their backlashes? You know who Vince *truly* dropped the ball with? Vader. His work wasn’t any worse than his usual WCW stuff, and he could have been an equally strong monster next to Sid and he had better non-HBK-related matches on average, but they never pulled the trigger on him. I’d argue they blew a chance with Umaga. HHH effed up bad with Booker, he could have given RVD more. I don’t think he needed to go over Punk, either. But as far as me looking back on Danielson’s WWE run, both with Hunter and otherwise, and me thinking “oh, how awful, how could they”? No, I don’t think so. And I highly doubt Bryan, as charismatic as he is, would have ever struck the chord that Cena did with those audiences because his personality is nowhere as bombastic as John’s or Rock’s.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 3,283
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Post by tirtefaa on Jul 14, 2022 15:41:48 GMT -5
Bryan was “The Guy.” The whole build and promotion of their biggest show ever at the time centered around him in early 2014. It was his neck issues that stalled that run. I already addressed this, but again WWE had to be led there kicking and screaming, the show wasn't certainly built up for him, they just had to change gears after the fans rejected the initial plan. And I really hate the idea of "waiting till Mania" to make it happen, when SummerSlam 2013 was striking when the iron was hot. The subsequent pulling the rug out from the fans multiple times for several months, only for them to put him in the main event of Mania in the 11th hour? That doesn't excuse it. It should have never taken THAT much frustration from the fans to give them what they want. I know of no other business model that would ever say otherwise. Either Vince McMahon is tone deaf to what the fans wanted, or he was arrogant enough to believe he could maintain his personal narrative that he sees is best. As far as his neck goes? Yeah, that's a shame, but it doesn't excuse a year and a half of shuffling him around all over the card when he was the most over guy, and again the SummerSlam 2013 booking was most egregious. [Yeah. As a matter of fact, I am defending it. The word “treatment” should never be mentioned in terms of a Triple Crown and like a four-time champ. Danielson in WWE had a career that just about any starry eyed indie kid would have a hard time complaining about. Oh no, he went all over the world and entertained millions on television with t-shirts and action figures and he’s got a smoking hot wife. Again, this isn't about titles per se. Yes, being give the top belt usually leads to the company booking the shows around you, which is what WWE used to do. But arguing they did that with Bryan is simply untrue. It's like being given an employee of the month award, only that it doesn't lead to any projection for that person's position within the company. Being given a belt, let alone a "top belt" doesn't guarantee anything, look at Braun Strowman as an example. As far as action figures and t-shirts, that comes with the territory and given sales I'd be curious to see if he was a top seller compared to some of the other guys not named Cena. As far as a hot wife? That honestly does not matter one iota since it doesn't affect my overall job status and should never be something anyone should settle for. No one should ever be "Well I'm treading water at my job and not being given the opportunity that I clearly am capable of doing the best job according to our customers. But that's okay because I'm well liked and I have a hot wife." And come on, two of those world titles don't even combine to one day in total. I think that's a little silly. WWE does a lot of stupid stuff but I can’t shake my fist at them with most of the ROH talent as a whole. And they weren’t the only stars of their era who got over organically (actually, no major rise in wrestling is 100% organic, Punk was heavily protected during his first few ECW run). We’re forgetting the big followings Cena and Roman had before the “overexposure” accusations started? And retained even with their backlashes?. Punk being protected on the ECW brand isn't exactly a badge of honor when the depth of the roster wasn't that deep to begin with, and again he's only protected because he's interacting with less than a third of the full roster. With Cena and Roman, it wasn't about overexposure as much as it was taking something that was appreciated and got over a certain way, and then manipulating that to fit someone else's image. I don't want to get derailed talking about what happened to Cena, but I'd say most of the resentment came twofold; some was overexposure, but most was what fans saw as a character they weren't interested in watching, and that's not a slight against Cena as much as it would be with anyone in that position. With Roman, he was 1/3 of an over act, and when it became clear that the most over guy in the act (Ambrose) was going to get the short end of the stick? There's the backlash. You know who Vince *truly* dropped the ball with? Vader. His work wasn’t any worse than his usual WCW stuff, and he could have been an equally strong monster next to Sid and he had better non-HBK-related matches on average, but they never pulled the trigger on him. I’d argue they blew a chance with Umaga. Can't really argue with that. I guess my only argument would be that Vader didn't exactly get strong reactions from the fans in WWF. And I always felt that sticking someone with Cornette in the mid 90's was the kiss of death since managers around this time were poorly booked in WWF, but that's just how I saw it. HHH effed up bad with Booker, he could have given RVD more. I don’t think he needed to go over Punk, either. But as far as me looking back on Danielson’s WWE run, both with Hunter and otherwise, and me thinking “oh, how awful, how could they”? No, I don’t think so. And I highly doubt Bryan, as charismatic as he is, would have ever struck the chord that Cena did with those audiences because his personality is nowhere as bombastic as John’s or Rock’s. Was Bryan treated better than a lot of other people in the company? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that. But just because you're treated better than others, if your full worth to the company is not being considered, then you ARE NOT getting your opportunity. With Bryan not being as "bombastic" as Cena, that does not matter. At all. If the fans are giving you 100% support, that's all you need. Bret Hart wasn't a bombastic guy, but he carried the company on his shoulders for 4 years as the top guy, and no one would say he didn't deserve it or earn it. At the end of the day, WWE simply wanted to tread water with the top stars they had predetermined. Throw a world title at another guy every once in a while and I guess they're supposed to be satisfied.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 14, 2022 18:48:01 GMT -5
Bryan was “The Guy.” The whole build and promotion of their biggest show ever at the time centered around him in early 2014. It was his neck issues that stalled that run. I already addressed this, but again WWE had to be led there kicking and screaming, the show wasn't certainly built up for him, they just had to change gears after the fans rejected the initial plan. And I really hate the idea of "waiting till Mania" to make it happen, when SummerSlam 2013 was striking when the iron was hot. The subsequent pulling the rug out from the fans multiple times for several months, only for them to put him in the main event of Mania in the 11th hour? That doesn't excuse it. It should have never taken THAT much frustration from the fans to give them what they want. I know of no other business model that would ever say otherwise. Either Vince McMahon is tone deaf to what the fans wanted, or he was arrogant enough to believe he could maintain his personal narrative that he sees is best. As far as his neck goes? Yeah, that's a shame, but it doesn't excuse a year and a half of shuffling him around all over the card when he was the most over guy, and again the SummerSlam 2013 booking was most egregious. [Yeah. As a matter of fact, I am defending it. The word “treatment” should never be mentioned in terms of a Triple Crown and like a four-time champ. Danielson in WWE had a career that just about any starry eyed indie kid would have a hard time complaining about. Oh no, he went all over the world and entertained millions on television with t-shirts and action figures and he’s got a smoking hot wife. Again, this isn't about titles per se. Yes, being give the top belt usually leads to the company booking the shows around you, which is what WWE used to do. But arguing they did that with Bryan is simply untrue. It's like being given an employee of the month award, only that it doesn't lead to any projection for that person's position within the company. Being given a belt, let alone a "top belt" doesn't guarantee anything, look at Braun Strowman as an example. As far as action figures and t-shirts, that comes with the territory and given sales I'd be curious to see if he was a top seller compared to some of the other guys not named Cena. As far as a hot wife? That honestly does not matter one iota since it doesn't affect my overall job status and should never be something anyone should settle for. No one should ever be "Well I'm treading water at my job and not being given the opportunity that I clearly am capable of doing the best job according to our customers. But that's okay because I'm well liked and I have a hot wife." And come on, two of those world titles don't even combine to one day in total. I think that's a little silly. WWE does a lot of stupid stuff but I can’t shake my fist at them with most of the ROH talent as a whole. And they weren’t the only stars of their era who got over organically (actually, no major rise in wrestling is 100% organic, Punk was heavily protected during his first few ECW run). We’re forgetting the big followings Cena and Roman had before the “overexposure” accusations started? And retained even with their backlashes?. Punk being protected on the ECW brand isn't exactly a badge of honor when the depth of the roster wasn't that deep to begin with, and again he's only protected because he's interacting with less than a third of the full roster. With Cena and Roman, it wasn't about overexposure as much as it was taking something that was appreciated and got over a certain way, and then manipulating that to fit someone else's image. I don't want to get derailed talking about what happened to Cena, but I'd say most of the resentment came twofold; some was overexposure, but most was what fans saw as a character they weren't interested in watching, and that's not a slight against Cena as much as it would be with anyone in that position. With Roman, he was 1/3 of an over act, and when it became clear that the most over guy in the act (Ambrose) was going to get the short end of the stick? There's the backlash. You know who Vince *truly* dropped the ball with? Vader. His work wasn’t any worse than his usual WCW stuff, and he could have been an equally strong monster next to Sid and he had better non-HBK-related matches on average, but they never pulled the trigger on him. I’d argue they blew a chance with Umaga. Can't really argue with that. I guess my only argument would be that Vader didn't exactly get strong reactions from the fans in WWF. And I always felt that sticking someone with Cornette in the mid 90's was the kiss of death since managers around this time were poorly booked in WWF, but that's just how I saw it. HHH effed up bad with Booker, he could have given RVD more. I don’t think he needed to go over Punk, either. But as far as me looking back on Danielson’s WWE run, both with Hunter and otherwise, and me thinking “oh, how awful, how could they”? No, I don’t think so. And I highly doubt Bryan, as charismatic as he is, would have ever struck the chord that Cena did with those audiences because his personality is nowhere as bombastic as John’s or Rock’s. Was Bryan treated better than a lot of other people in the company? Absolutely. I'm not arguing that. But just because you're treated better than others, if your full worth to the company is not being considered, then you ARE NOT getting your opportunity. With Bryan not being as "bombastic" as Cena, that does not matter. At all. If the fans are giving you 100% support, that's all you need. Bret Hart wasn't a bombastic guy, but he carried the company on his shoulders for 4 years as the top guy, and no one would say he didn't deserve it or earn it. At the end of the day, WWE simply wanted to tread water with the top stars they had predetermined. Throw a world title at another guy every once in a while and I guess they're supposed to be satisfied. Yes it was a backup plan but then it became “the” plan and Bryan was for sure “The Guy”. People were saying the same thing about Becky Lynch until they realized that WWE actually did want to get behind her and they realized that she was being pushed as the ace. Bryan did get to that point but before some fans could truly believe that the company was now firmly behind him, he got hurt.
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 3,283
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Post by tirtefaa on Jul 14, 2022 20:02:22 GMT -5
Yes it was a backup plan but then it became “the” plan and Bryan was for sure “The Guy”. People were saying the same thing about Becky Lynch until they realized that WWE actually did want to get behind her and they realized that she was being pushed as the ace. Bryan did get to that point but before some fans could truly believe that the company was now firmly behind him, he got hurt. Was he "the guy" though? I seem to remember the shows mainly focusing on Evolution dealing with the Shield after WrestleMania, and John Cena had a lot of air time focused on Bray Wyatt. It's like when Chris Benoit won the WHC at Mania, sure he was the champion, but Triple H was still the focus of the show. And while we'll never know for sure, it was pretty evident that WWE would soon shift the entire focus towards the Shield breakup and the mega push that Roman would get. So I very much doubt that a healthy Bryan would have been carrying the company the same way an Austin, Rock, Cena or even a Triple H would have.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 14, 2022 23:50:28 GMT -5
Yes it was a backup plan but then it became “the” plan and Bryan was for sure “The Guy”. People were saying the same thing about Becky Lynch until they realized that WWE actually did want to get behind her and they realized that she was being pushed as the ace. Bryan did get to that point but before some fans could truly believe that the company was now firmly behind him, he got hurt. Was he "the guy" though? I seem to remember the shows mainly focusing on Evolution dealing with the Shield after WrestleMania, and John Cena had a lot of air time focused on Bray Wyatt. It's like when Chris Benoit won the WHC at Mania, sure he was the champion, but Triple H was still the focus of the show. And while we'll never know for sure, it was pretty evident that WWE would soon shift the entire focus towards the Shield breakup and the mega push that Roman would get. So I very much doubt that a healthy Bryan would have been carrying the company the same way an Austin, Rock, Cena or even a Triple H would have. He was the guy, yes. The show completely revolved around him for weeks/months leading up to Mania, he then both opened and closed Mania, and only made it to one PPV before getting hurt. And he was the main advertising for that PPV and main evented the show. They’d definitely done the whole “champion but not the main character of the show” thing before with others (including with Bryan pre-2013), but the 2014 run was different.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 15, 2022 5:31:08 GMT -5
Punk was going to be used as a human shield for their burial of Bryan, the shiny keys to jingle to distract fans from the fact Bryan was stuck in a feud with Sheamus while the company ploughed ahead with the mania main event they had planned. 'Look, Punk is wrestling the guy you're mad at! He'll get revenge for the fans! Jingle jingle!'
Punk would win the match but he wouldn't come out of it looking good. Got to keep Hunter strong!
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ghost
Don Corleone
Posts: 2,002
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Post by ghost on Jul 15, 2022 6:35:39 GMT -5
2011 feud:
- Punk accuses HHH of being corrupt - HHH insists that he isn’t. - Punk loses in their only match - Punk essentially apologizes to him after that. - HHH turns heel 2 years later to become the exact character Punk accused him of being in the first place.
I’m guessing Trips didn’t want to turn heel in 2011 because he wanted a 45 minute babyface match with Taker at Mania the following year but what a mess that whole thing was. If Trips just turned heel for Punk in 2011 they could have stretched that feud for months.
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