Why was Shawn Michaels so hated early 1997?

[The Rick Jericho]

He reverted back to clean cut babyface after the Royal Rumble title win. He was still a clear babyface up until August 1997 for the most part.

But, the crowds were hating him. We had Die Shawn Die signs in the crowd. The boos were there mostly by the men. Even with the Bret heel turn, did the fans still take Bret's side and preferred him over Shawn?

[tirtefaa]

Shawn was hated in 1996 too.

I tend to think of it in the same way that some of the crowds turned on John Cena. You have a highly talented act that the audience enjoys due to how they're presented, but when they get their big break, the company proceeds to mold that person in the image they feel is most marketable or most widely appealing. So any edge that a Shawn or Cena is gone.

With Shawn, he was far less arrogant, he came out with Jose Lothario as his manager, and the appeal of Undertaker, Steve Austin and Sid was far more interesting than what Shawn had to offer, even if that meant excellent matches...people want cool characters, and Shawn just wasn't presented as cool.

[fw91]

Jul 16, 2022 22:09:31 GMT -5 tirtefaa said:

he came out with Jose Lothario as his manager

/thread.

[Mozenrath]

He wasn't an especially sympathetic character. Very skilled, and people could find him entertaining as a heel, but his energy was very obnoxious.

[Sir Woodrow]

That damn Sweatsock ruins everything

[nakedmideon]

Jul 17, 2022 6:07:35 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

He wasn't an especially sympathetic character. Very skilled, and people could find him entertaining as a heel, but his energy was very obnoxious.

This is the perfect answer

[tafkaga]

The most hated heel does not become the most beloved babyface because the bookers decide it. That transition has to be organic, e.g. Lawler, Stone Cold. I think fans liked the novelty of early babyface Shawn, the idea that this obnoxious asshole had some redeeming qualities, but when Vince decided to go all out with Lothario and take away Shawn's edge, it did not ring authentic.

[dav]

Carrying on as a male stripper probably didn't help with various sections of fans back then either.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

He wasn't likeable enough to play the kind of face they wanted him to play. They wanted him to be Bret, building up a backstory with his own Stu Hart in Jose, without telling the fans why Jose mattered, or checking to see if he and Shawn had any chemistry on camera. They also kept the male stripper gimmick well after it became abundantly clear that wasn't getting the kind of reaction management wanted. Straight male fans in the mid 90s weren't getting behind a nale stripper, whoever had that gimmick, and putting him against Sid, Bret and others didn't help his case any.

[Deleted]

Wrestling fans were really homophobic around this time so a man acting like a stripper and being obnoxious about it was almost gauranteed to get heat.

[GodzillaIsMyMonster]

Because it's the most forced, over pushed, shoved down the fans throats push in WWE history. HBK was good as a upper mid card guy. But he wasn't main event all the time material.

I'm not saying he wasn't talented, he was, he had good to great matches. But the majority of fans just didn't care.

Its one of the reasons I love the Survivor Series 96 main event. Shawn looks so f***ing stupid and when Sid hits the powerbomb and gets the 3 count, there's a couple fans sitting next to Vladimir the Super Fan, and they have best reactions.

I love their misery.

[Aceorton]

Jul 17, 2022 9:04:34 GMT -5 tafkaga said:

when Vince decided to go all out with Lothario and take away Shawn's edge, it did not ring authentic.

"Authentic" really is the key word here. It was still very early in the internet era, so a lot of Shawn's real-life behavior was not out there for consumption yet, but it was still easy to smell a rat. The "boyhood dream" stuff ran counter to Michaels clearly seeing himself as the coolest part of the show dating back to mid-'95. That's for the fans to decide, not the performer. His attempts to be an edgy free spirit worked when he was a heel, but as a babyface from WM12 up through the formation of DX, it just came off as forced and lame and undercut a lot of the respect he got for being such a good in-ring performer.

Bret basically was saying as much in every anti-HBK promo after he returned in late '96: Why are you cheering this guy? He's an immature, ass-shaking phony who's full of himself. And even though Bret was being a prick about it, people recognized it was true.

[kingoftheindies]

A lot of people hit the nail on the head but also watching a lot of his reign in 96 as well as how he was presented during the time frame? They... really made him look like a doofus and not just with him being a boring babyface.

You had the Bulldog feud where he twice retained under... less than convincing fashion, you had the Vader match at Summerslam that made Shawn look pretty bad, and then youbhad him lose the title in a way that made him look like a geek.

So while Shawn was arguably the best in the world in 1996, I don't think he was having matches at the level where he could overcome bad booking

[tirtefaa]

Jul 18, 2022 0:44:57 GMT -5 kingoftheindies said:

So while Shawn was arguably the best in the world in 1996, I don't think he was having matches at the level where he could overcome bad booking

On paper, you could argue that his title reign was pretty good based on the variety of opponents he had; Bret Hart, Diesel, Bulldog, Vader, Sid and technically Goldust. But like you said, the booking of him was just the pits. So despite decent to great matches, there isn't a lot to write home about. Then once he loses the belt, he doesn't even have a match for the next PPV, instead doing commentary. What is that?

Honestly, I think in some ways I will chalk this up to mostly booking, but it really does feel like Shawn was phoning it in when he wasn't actually wrestling, and maybe that's because he didn't like how his character was being portrayed.

I can't remember what interview it was, but I think it was before the Rumble where Shawn and Jose are live via satellite and Shawn just seethed with frustration with having to do this with Jose, he looked like he rather be anywhere else.

[thecrusherwi]

Jul 17, 2022 6:07:35 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

He wasn't an especially sympathetic character. Very skilled, and people could find him entertaining as a heel, but his energy was very obnoxious.

Obnoxious energy is a good way to describe it. There was just something off-putting about it. It's don't think even the "male stripper" gimmick as much, because Shawn did a toned-down version all of that stuff in his post-2002 comeback, yet was one of the most over guys among males they had on the roster. There was just something forced about it that made it not seem genuine and made you kinda just want to see that guy lose. And it's why he made such a great heel in the original DX. They leaned into the more obnoxious aspects of it.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Jul 17, 2022 19:42:16 GMT -5 @negan said:

Wrestling fans were really homophobic around this time so a man acting like a stripper and being obnoxious about it was almost gauranteed to get heat.

Even if you exclude everything else, this.

[thecrusherwi]

Jul 18, 2022 12:21:24 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Jul 17, 2022 19:42:16 GMT -5 @negan said:

Wrestling fans were really homophobic around this time so a man acting like a stripper and being obnoxious about it was almost gauranteed to get heat.

Even if you exclude everything else, this.

More people in the 90s had much worse attitudes towards gay people for sure. But I don't think rooting against the guy who gleefully teases pulling down his tights after he wins necessarily makes you a bigot. Plus Shawn was never presented as a gay character. It likely was more of a resentment of this guy who is better looking than you and more athletic than you gyrating and doing a striptease that's making all the women in the crowd go crazy. Many straight guys are not going to cheer for that guy. Though having said that, I'm sure there was some element of "If I say I like Shawn Michaels, people will think I'm gay and I don't want that."

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Jul 18, 2022 12:42:56 GMT -5 thecrusherwi said:

Jul 18, 2022 12:21:24 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Even if you exclude everything else, this.

More people in the 90s had much worse attitudes towards gay people for sure. But I don't think rooting against the guy who gleefully teases pulling down his tights after he wins necessarily makes you a bigot. Plus Shawn was never presented as a gay character. It likely was more of a resentment of this guy who is better looking than you and more athletic than you gyrating and doing a striptease that's making all the women in the crowd go crazy. Many straight guys are not going to cheer for that guy. Though having said that, I'm sure there was some element of "If I say I like Shawn Michaels, people will think I'm gay and I don't want that."

I didn't use the word bigot. Especially not about individual fans

Society itself was more bigoted, and acting like a queer was solid heat in wrestling for years before and after this. This isn't on individual fans, it is on the systems

And having been in the school system at the time of this gimmick it really didn't take much for people to peg you as a sissy and turn on you immediately and homophobia was literally a cool thing to do for years after this

[thecrusherwi]

Jul 18, 2022 13:51:19 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Jul 18, 2022 12:42:56 GMT -5 thecrusherwi said:

More people in the 90s had much worse attitudes towards gay people for sure. But I don't think rooting against the guy who gleefully teases pulling down his tights after he wins necessarily makes you a bigot. Plus Shawn was never presented as a gay character. It likely was more of a resentment of this guy who is better looking than you and more athletic than you gyrating and doing a striptease that's making all the women in the crowd go crazy. Many straight guys are not going to cheer for that guy. Though having said that, I'm sure there was some element of "If I say I like Shawn Michaels, people will think I'm gay and I don't want that."

I didn't use the word bigot. Especially not about individual fans

Society itself was more bigoted, and acting like a queer was solid heat in wrestling for years before and after this. This isn't on individual fans, it is on the systems

And having been in the school system at the time of this gimmick it really didn't take much for people to peg you as a sissy and turn on you immediately and homophobia was literally a cool thing to do for years after this

I do agree with that. I was also school aged in this era. Prior to the Attitude Era, wrestling itself was pretty much cast into this realm. If you liked wrestling, you were a (insert homophobic slur).

[Aceorton]

Jul 18, 2022 10:26:20 GMT -5 thecrusherwi said:

Jul 17, 2022 6:07:35 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

He wasn't an especially sympathetic character. Very skilled, and people could find him entertaining as a heel, but his energy was very obnoxious.

Obnoxious energy is a good way to describe it. There was just something off-putting about it. It's don't think even the "male stripper" gimmick as much, because Shawn did a toned-down version all of that stuff in his post-2002 comeback, yet was one of the most over guys among males they had on the roster. There was just something forced about it that made it not seem genuine and made you kinda just want to see that guy lose. And it's why he made such a great heel in the original DX. They leaned into the more obnoxious aspects of it.

Epiphany: 1996-97 Shawn Michaels was basically Zack Morris.