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Post by hijuko on Jul 18, 2022 13:51:28 GMT -5
Even today, I wonder how bookers could make such big mistakes. It was obvious that Daniel Bryan was the ultimate favorite of the match and if he got knocked out in the middle of the match, the crowd was going to weigh down the rest of the match. And it was also obvious that the crowd was going to hate the fact that Ziggler, the other favorite was knocked out in 2:30 by Kane and Big Show. And the crowd had also made it clear that they didn't want Roman Reigns to win the match.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jul 18, 2022 13:55:42 GMT -5
I think they thought that Big Show and Kane were so stale and past their prime that the crowd would cheer Roman for eliminating them and winning the match. Plus The Rock to distract them too. It failed but what a glorious failure it was and at least we'll always have that clip of Rock raising Roman's hand and being shocked at the boos.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 18, 2022 13:57:13 GMT -5
It wasn't a mistake. It went exactly as they planned.
WWE does not care about giving the fans what they want or making money more than they care about winning an argument.
WWE booking is powered by spite. This isn't even necessarily a criticism, I think some of WWE's spiteful booking has been some of the funniest shit they have ever done
But that match was designed to tell fans they are not getting what they wanted. Sure WWE didn't WANT the show to end with twenty minutes of booing including booing The Rock, they tried everything they could to get it to work, but they wrote that match so fans would go 'oh no, Bryan is out so Roman is my hero,' and Roman will be your hero no matter what you claim to want
And then they realised they could keep pushing Roman and get big TV deals and it didn't matter that everyone was booing, they were making money IN SPITE of the fans
WWE history is littered with examples of them burying things that got over because they didn't create them and pushing things relentlessly despite fan reaction
Nothing went wrong on this show because the fans don't matter any more
This strategy will, eventually, blow up in their face because of their aging fanbase. Those TV deals can't keep being so sweet forever. But maybe by then Vince will finally be gone and they could actually have something new, creative and aimed to please the fans for once
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 18, 2022 14:13:25 GMT -5
To summarize the post above, it was intentional to get Roman over by having him get cheered when everyone else failed. Except they didn’t even do the right thing to get Roman over by having him kick ass like last year.
Like, if that wasn’t the intended plan then everyone involved (Noble and Mercury especially who put the match together) were incompetent as all hell.
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Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Jul 18, 2022 14:19:28 GMT -5
WWE had already been overusing Kane and Big Show to diminishing returns for a while. After all, if fans think they're stale and dull, that just makes them better heels, right? That makes them so completely unlikable that, if they do things the fans don't like, like eliminate all the favorites, then the audience will cheer the guy who eliminates them, right?
Well...that isn't how that works. It's the super-simplistic way that anti-intellectual wrestling bookers and pundits think it works.
Exciting wrestling is more conducive to immersion and engagement than boring wrestling. Having Show and Kane do boring offense and boring eliminations made the match so dull and slow that it broke immersion. If you're not enjoying the actual match, that's more time to see the gears turning and to realize what's happening. (I contend to this day: putting the likes of Rusev and Cesaro in the same roles as Big Show and Kane for 2014 and 2015 would have helped so much with problems like this.)
Coinciding with the boring wrestling making the match less immersive: the narrative itself was so completely over-labored in its attempt to manipulate the audience that the audience could see it plain as day. People don't like feeling manipulated like that. When all of the crowd favorites are eliminated in bullshit ways, over and over, it's obvious what's happening, and everyone could see exactly how WWE wanted them to respond...which is a really good way to get people to rebel. There was no way to believe that this was Kane and Big Show eliminating people, it was just WWE clearing the deck of all favorites and building up heels that nobody wanted to win.
It's a fascinating match to analyze, because it's the "heels should have no likable qualities and should be boring and should be hated for real universally" booking philosophy deconstructed in action. That falls apart because ultimately, fans are paying to see an enjoyable match, and enjoying the match often involves getting wrapped up in the action. Every single element of the match was geared to get a specific crowd response, but it neglected to consider that all of those things can only work when the audience is actually enjoying what they're seeing on a base level of excitement and immersion.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 18, 2022 14:34:18 GMT -5
It's a fascinating match to analyze, because it's the "heels should have no likable qualities and should be boring and should be hated for real universally" booking philosophy deconstructed in action. That falls apart because ultimately, fans are paying to see an enjoyable match, and enjoying the match often involves getting wrapped up in the action. Every single element of the match was geared to get a specific crowd response, but it neglected to consider that all of those things can only work when the audience is actually enjoying what they're seeing on a base level of excitement and immersion. Like you said, it's a really fascinating match to look at from a booking standpoint. I rag on it because it's a badly put together, heel heavy, misery booked Rumble match and it's so much the antithesis of what we know about how Vince has booked wrestling shows for so long that you can't help but look at it for the car crash it is. Even something like the 1999 Royal Rumble, a Rumble that is pretty much a Vince Russo booked one from top to bottom in all the worst ways and showed how top-heavy the WWF was at the time, wasn't dull and had things going on that led to stuff down the line. 2015 had Roman winning and that's literally it. Everyone else, even Big Show and Kane, looked like goobers and that's really not something WWE has ever done with Rumble matches. At least Kane killed everyone and eliminated them before running away from the Mental Asylum staff. Kane's main story in 2015 was to not get along with Big Show for no good reason and get them both dumped out like dopes. Like...how does this match happen? How does a company with a lot of people who are old enough and with more knowledge than everyone here combined about the business book a match like that? It's such an anomaly in WWE history.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jul 18, 2022 14:45:08 GMT -5
Wasn't this the first Rumble that didn't have Patterson involved in the booking? Even when he has previously been on hiatus, they would call him in to do the Rumble because it was his baby.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 18, 2022 14:46:15 GMT -5
Wasn't this the first Rumble that didn't have Patterson involved in the booking? Even when he has previously been on hiatus, they would call him in to do the Rumble because it was his baby. Appropriately, yes. Yes it was.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 18, 2022 23:06:53 GMT -5
There's a lot of valid and reasonable things said in this thread that yes are absolutely facets of it, but I wanna zoom out to one that isn't just rejection of the result or its execution. The best Rumbles are the ones that have multiple stories coming into them and going out of them. Ones were multiple wrestlers get shine spots and narratives that they get to tell through the match; it's how iron man performances can be career-defining even with a loss, it's how stories splinter off, how interactions between teammates can be interesting. The best Rumbles find ways to manage different tropes and elements with enough wrestlers that it never feels like one person's show. In a good rumble, a winner can come out at 30, win, and the first 29 entrants still have enough compelling stuff amid all their performances to make for a good match. You don't need to spend an hour and 29 guys to make one final guy look good.
The 2015 rumble did not bother with any of that. It did not try to give other wrestlers stories. The only ones who got anything meaningful were the heels for Roman to vanquish, and the local men saw nothing out of that. That match was Roman's show. Nobody remembers any story threads that weren't about Roman. The only memorable moment anyone else got was when Daniel Bryan got eliminated during Goldust's entrance and the camera captured "SHATTERED DREAMS" on the tron. In a match that has the potential to make a lot of people look good, the 2015 rumble was for one man only.
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on Jul 18, 2022 23:14:19 GMT -5
I think they thought that Big Show and Kane were so stale and past their prime that the crowd would cheer Roman for eliminating them and winning the match. This is the same garbage that Vince attempted in the mid 90's with the New Generation. Instead of booking credible heels, you mostly had guys who were unhip old guys, or guys with stupid gimmicks, so as to default on the faces they were pushing. The problem with this is that if the fans don't like the faces, they have no heels to default on, so they instead just stop watching.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 19, 2022 1:49:29 GMT -5
There's a lot of valid and reasonable things said in this thread that yes are absolutely facets of it, but I wanna zoom out to one that isn't just rejection of the result or its execution. The best Rumbles are the ones that have multiple stories coming into them and going out of them. Ones were multiple wrestlers get shine spots and narratives that they get to tell through the match; it's how iron man performances can be career-defining even with a loss, it's how stories splinter off, how interactions between teammates can be interesting. The best Rumbles find ways to manage different tropes and elements with enough wrestlers that it never feels like one person's show. In a good rumble, a winner can come out at 30, win, and the first 29 entrants still have enough compelling stuff amid all their performances to make for a good match. You don't need to spend an hour and 29 guys to make one final guy look good. The 2015 rumble did not bother with any of that. It did not try to give other wrestlers stories. The only ones who got anything meaningful were the heels for Roman to vanquish, and the local men saw nothing out of that. That match was Roman's show. Nobody remembers any story threads that weren't about Roman. The only memorable moment anyone else got was when Daniel Bryan got eliminated during Goldust's entrance and the camera captured "SHATTERED DREAMS" on the tron. In a match that has the potential to make a lot of people look good, the 2015 rumble was for one man only. Yeah that was always my biggest issue with it. No stories started at the rumble carried to Mania. No stories coming in continued during the rumble. no stories were told DURING the match... except everyone you like is stupid garbage except Roman. and Roman's victory was a flukey nothing win and not some big exclamation point... (because they knew the crowd weren't behind him cause they hadn't been for months)
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 19, 2022 1:54:26 GMT -5
There's a lot of valid and reasonable things said in this thread that yes are absolutely facets of it, but I wanna zoom out to one that isn't just rejection of the result or its execution. The best Rumbles are the ones that have multiple stories coming into them and going out of them. Ones were multiple wrestlers get shine spots and narratives that they get to tell through the match; it's how iron man performances can be career-defining even with a loss, it's how stories splinter off, how interactions between teammates can be interesting. The best Rumbles find ways to manage different tropes and elements with enough wrestlers that it never feels like one person's show. In a good rumble, a winner can come out at 30, win, and the first 29 entrants still have enough compelling stuff amid all their performances to make for a good match. You don't need to spend an hour and 29 guys to make one final guy look good. The 2015 rumble did not bother with any of that. It did not try to give other wrestlers stories. The only ones who got anything meaningful were the heels for Roman to vanquish, and the local men saw nothing out of that. That match was Roman's show. Nobody remembers any story threads that weren't about Roman. The only memorable moment anyone else got was when Daniel Bryan got eliminated during Goldust's entrance and the camera captured "SHATTERED DREAMS" on the tron. In a match that has the potential to make a lot of people look good, the 2015 rumble was for one man only. Yeah that was always my biggest issue with it. No stories started at the rumble carried to Mania. No stories coming in continued during the rumble. no stories were told DURING the match... except everyone you like is stupid garbage except Roman. and Roman's victory was a flukey nothing win and not some big exclamation point... (because they knew the crowd weren't behind him cause they hadn't been for months) And if they really, really wanted to, they could have easily told a story meant to make Roman look good. An iron man performance may not have really been in the cards with his cardio, but they really didn't bother finding any angle for sympathy because at that point it was all about making Roman look good, so vulnerability couldn't happen. Compared to the year after, which actually turned out to be even more disastrous in execution when they did a table spot, a stretcher spot, had him come back out at the end and still get easily chumped by Triple H, which almost nobody seemed to buy or care about. The one Rumble they managed to make work was the one where they had him go in to almost the end entirely as a fake-out the very next year. That's it. He's had one actually worthwhile Rumble go and it's for the best he hasn't done them the past few years.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 19, 2022 1:55:46 GMT -5
There's a lot of valid and reasonable things said in this thread that yes are absolutely facets of it, but I wanna zoom out to one that isn't just rejection of the result or its execution. The best Rumbles are the ones that have multiple stories coming into them and going out of them. Ones were multiple wrestlers get shine spots and narratives that they get to tell through the match; it's how iron man performances can be career-defining even with a loss, it's how stories splinter off, how interactions between teammates can be interesting. The best Rumbles find ways to manage different tropes and elements with enough wrestlers that it never feels like one person's show. In a good rumble, a winner can come out at 30, win, and the first 29 entrants still have enough compelling stuff amid all their performances to make for a good match. You don't need to spend an hour and 29 guys to make one final guy look good. The 2015 rumble did not bother with any of that. It did not try to give other wrestlers stories. The only ones who got anything meaningful were the heels for Roman to vanquish, and the local men saw nothing out of that. That match was Roman's show. Nobody remembers any story threads that weren't about Roman. The only memorable moment anyone else got was when Daniel Bryan got eliminated during Goldust's entrance and the camera captured "SHATTERED DREAMS" on the tron. In a match that has the potential to make a lot of people look good, the 2015 rumble was for one man only. Yeah that was always my biggest issue with it. No stories started at the rumble carried to Mania. No stories coming in continued during the rumble. no stories were told DURING the match... except everyone you like is stupid garbage except Roman. and Roman's victory was a flukey nothing win and not some big exclamation point... (because they knew the crowd weren't behind him cause they hadn't been for months) And it made the stories going into WrestleMania look worse. You’re expecting me to take Bray seriously against the Undertaker after being thrown out by the local men like a trash bag? How does an IC title match where half the people were also tossed out like trash bags have intrigue to it? Then throw in it was essentially a bunch of people who should be doing better things grabbing a belt from one another? Come on now. And Roman…you wanted this guy to be ready for Brock? By barely winning a Rumble and needing the help of his famous cousin to get by? How? How?
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 19, 2022 1:59:28 GMT -5
Yeah that was always my biggest issue with it. No stories started at the rumble carried to Mania. No stories coming in continued during the rumble. no stories were told DURING the match... except everyone you like is stupid garbage except Roman. and Roman's victory was a flukey nothing win and not some big exclamation point... (because they knew the crowd weren't behind him cause they hadn't been for months) And if they really, really wanted to, they could have easily told a story meant to make Roman look good. An iron man performance may not have really been in the cards with his cardio, but they really didn't bother finding any angle for sympathy because at that point it was all about making Roman look good, so vulnerability couldn't happen. Compared to the year after, which actually turned out to be even more disastrous in execution when they did a table spot, a stretcher spot, had him come back out at the end and still get easily chumped by Triple H, which almost nobody seemed to buy or care about. The one Rumble they managed to make work was the one where they had him go in to almost the end entirely as a fake-out the very next year. That's it. He's had one actually worthwhile Rumble go and it's for the best he hasn't done them the past few years. Oh you just reminded me of the 2016 where it wasn't even a stretcher spot Roman walked to the back under his own power because he for some reason that thought it made him look better. Instead it made it look like he walked out on the match... instead of being forcibly removed by the medics... but yeah... he was perfect as the fake spoiler for Shinsuke in 2017.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 19, 2022 2:05:44 GMT -5
He was perfect as the fake spoiler for later Rumbles entirely because of the horrendous reaction to the previous ones
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 19, 2022 8:31:27 GMT -5
And if they really, really wanted to, they could have easily told a story meant to make Roman look good. An iron man performance may not have really been in the cards with his cardio, but they really didn't bother finding any angle for sympathy because at that point it was all about making Roman look good, so vulnerability couldn't happen. Compared to the year after, which actually turned out to be even more disastrous in execution when they did a table spot, a stretcher spot, had him come back out at the end and still get easily chumped by Triple H, which almost nobody seemed to buy or care about. The one Rumble they managed to make work was the one where they had him go in to almost the end entirely as a fake-out the very next year. That's it. He's had one actually worthwhile Rumble go and it's for the best he hasn't done them the past few years. Oh you just reminded me of the 2016 where it wasn't even a stretcher spot Roman walked to the back under his own power because he for some reason that thought it made him look better. Instead it made it look like he walked out on the match... instead of being forcibly removed by the medics... but yeah... he was perfect as the fake spoiler for Shinsuke in 2017. That was a great example of them seeming to forget why things work. The badass refusing medical attention and walking back under his own power after a beatdown. That's cool. But that's the end of a segment, not the middle of a match, they can leave on their own, or return on their own after being carried out, you can't mix the 2.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 19, 2022 8:54:49 GMT -5
That was a great example of them seeming to forget why things work. The badass refusing medical attention and walking back under his own power after a beatdown. That's cool. But that's the end of a segment, not the middle of a match, they can leave on their own, or return on their own after being carried out, you can't mix the 2. Yeah, if Roman was being taken out and then came back in all guns blazing (see Dax at Forbidden Door during the triple threat tag title match), then that'd be one thing. If you can leave on your own and can come back on your own...that makes you a coward.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 19, 2022 13:11:32 GMT -5
That was a great example of them seeming to forget why things work. The badass refusing medical attention and walking back under his own power after a beatdown. That's cool. But that's the end of a segment, not the middle of a match, they can leave on their own, or return on their own after being carried out, you can't mix the 2. Yeah, if Roman was being taken out and then came back in all guns blazing (see Dax at Forbidden Door during the triple threat tag title match), then that'd be one thing. If you can leave on your own and can come back on your own...that makes you a coward. and as I said... from all accounts ROMAN is the one that insisted on walking to the back.
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XIII
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Post by XIII on Jul 19, 2022 13:44:49 GMT -5
Was this the one that had “Shattered Dreams” show up right after Bryan was eliminated. Vince going to troll.
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Post by fw91 on Jul 19, 2022 14:53:30 GMT -5
WWE does not care about giving the fans what they want or making money more than they care about winning an argument. WWE booking is powered by spite. This isn't even necessarily a criticism, I think some of WWE's spiteful booking has been some of the funniest shit they have ever done Strongly disagree. They only care about making money. I think the iwc has a hard time reconciling that there is more money potential in WWE’s picks on top guys than others that we want. Guys like Bryan and Punk are exceptions, not the rule. Good work rate guys like Tomasso Ciampa will never draw as much as Roman Reigns even if pushed well. I think we are seeing Gunther prove my theory right.
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