fw91
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Post by fw91 on Aug 6, 2022 0:34:05 GMT -5
I’ll just add this; With HHH’s new responsibilities, he’s basically the guy that Buck stops at now. He’s head of creative, he’s head of developmental. If he ends up going on a streak where his ideas don’t get over and suck and he undermines developmental, then we’ll be questioning his decisions as well as the McMahon/Khan connection on top for still keeping him there. Just as it was when Vince was basically running everything and letting NXT get away from the system he wanted to get talent through on. All of that was on him for not going to HHH and saying “This was isn’t working, let’s do it like this” and it was one of the reasons why, for as good as NXT was at points, it was hard for people to get invested in it. you're not wrong per se, but it's still kind of weird. Like NXT was damn excellent from like 2014-2018. I'd say Nakamura was the last champ of great NXT. Then it steadily became like a stale super indy. Like from my made up "great era" the call ups for most part didn't really bust. Then it just got boring despite the good matches. |
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Aug 6, 2022 0:37:48 GMT -5
I’ll just add this; With HHH’s new responsibilities, he’s basically the guy that Buck stops at now. He’s head of creative, he’s head of developmental. If he ends up going on a streak where his ideas don’t get over and suck and he undermines developmental, then we’ll be questioning his decisions as well as the McMahon/Khan connection on top for still keeping him there. Just as it was when Vince was basically running everything and letting NXT get away from the system he wanted to get talent through on. All of that was on him for not going to HHH and saying “This was isn’t working, let’s do it like this” and it was one of the reasons why, for as good as NXT was at points, it was hard for people to get invested in it. you're not wrong per se, but it's still kind of weird. Like NXT was damn excellent from like 2014-2018. I'd say Nakamura was the last champ of great NXT. Then it steadily became like a stale super indy. Like from my made up "great era" the call ups for most part didn't really bust. Then it just got boring despite the good matches. You’re right about NXT eventually coming off like a super Indy. I tried giving it a shot at the time but in comparison, AEW came off way more like “sports entertainment” than NXT did. At that time. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Aug 6, 2022 0:40:29 GMT -5
you're not wrong per se, but it's still kind of weird. Like NXT was damn excellent from like 2014-2018. I'd say Nakamura was the last champ of great NXT. Then it steadily became like a stale super indy. Like from my made up "great era" the call ups for most part didn't really bust. Then it just got boring despite the good matches. You’re right about NXT eventually coming off like a super Indy. I tried giving it a shot at the time but in comparison, AEW came off way more like “sports entertainment” than NXT did. At that time. And I’d like to point out to you two that, like, Vince could have changed that. Heck, he might have approved all of that, knowing full well it wasn’t going to work for what he was doing for the company which, again, makes zero sense for the long term regardless of the potential short term NXT beating Dynamite would have done. Like, regardless of what anyone says, Vince could have tried to make it work or said HHH to not do that but he didn’t. So anything that happens with talent that didn’t work…Buck stopped with him. Just like the Buck will stop with HHH, Steph and Nick if this goes the same way. |
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Aug 6, 2022 0:51:08 GMT -5
You’re right about NXT eventually coming off like a super Indy. I tried giving it a shot at the time but in comparison, AEW came off way more like “sports entertainment” than NXT did. At that time. And I’d like to point out to you two that, like, Vince could have changed that. Heck, he might have approved all of that, knowing full well it wasn’t going to work for what he was doing for the company which, again, makes zero sense for the long term regardless of the potential short term NXT beating Dynamite would have done. Like, regardless of what anyone says, Vince could have tried to make it work or said HHH to not do that but he didn’t. So anything that happens with talent that didn’t work…Buck stopped with him. Just like the Buck will stop with HHH, Steph and Nick if this goes the same way. Yeah, Vince was THE guy in WWE. Literally ever decision had to pass by him. Even if he just stamped it. Dude was a micromanager to the extreme... if he had any issue with "Super indy" NXT he could/should and WOULD have intervened earlier. |
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Aug 6, 2022 0:57:10 GMT -5
You’re right about NXT eventually coming off like a super Indy. I tried giving it a shot at the time but in comparison, AEW came off way more like “sports entertainment” than NXT did. At that time. And I’d like to point out to you two that, like, Vince could have changed that. Heck, he might have approved all of that, knowing full well it wasn’t going to work for what he was doing for the company which, again, makes zero sense for the long term regardless of the potential short term NXT beating Dynamite would have done. Like, regardless of what anyone says, Vince could have tried to make it work or said HHH to not do that but he didn’t. So anything that happens with talent that didn’t work…Buck stopped with him. Just like the Buck will stop with HHH, Steph and Nick if this goes the same way. Yeah but it’s Vince. He’s crazy. He probably half-saw the success NXT had and was like “oh SHIT! Great stuff pal!” and once it didn’t align with his thoughts and perspective, he did what he did and went HAM on Hunter and NXT itself. I get what OP is saying. RAW was very wrestling heavy. And he’s winding back the silly shit, which, great, ya know? But I do think it’s important WWE maintains a “bigger picture” perspective. And yeah, it’ll come down to trips, khan and steph. I’m gladly giving Papa H time but I get OP’s concerns is all. |
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Post by stoptheclocks on Aug 6, 2022 1:00:55 GMT -5
I'm glad that Vince's favorites are being downplayed and I hope it continues. Nothing against them personally, but Vince shouldn't be allowed to be happy. He's a bad man and he made WWE a miserable viewing experience for a very long time. Nothing he wants should ever happen on WWE programming ever again. I know hyperbole is your thing, but cutting guys and girls careers out at the knees who did nothing other than Vince liking them is pretty shitty. Lol Particularly as anyone working WWE TV was liked by Vince in some way. He owns the company and was in 100% control - hard to argue that every wrestler you don't like was only there because of him, and everyone you do like got there inspite of him. Either way, I doubt Vince is sat at home stressing about what will happen to Omos. Dude has bigger things to worry about. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Aug 6, 2022 1:03:01 GMT -5
And I’d like to point out to you two that, like, Vince could have changed that. Heck, he might have approved all of that, knowing full well it wasn’t going to work for what he was doing for the company which, again, makes zero sense for the long term regardless of the potential short term NXT beating Dynamite would have done. Like, regardless of what anyone says, Vince could have tried to make it work or said HHH to not do that but he didn’t. So anything that happens with talent that didn’t work…Buck stopped with him. Just like the Buck will stop with HHH, Steph and Nick if this goes the same way. Yeah but it’s Vince. He’s crazy. He probably half-saw the success NXT had and was like “oh SHIT! Great stuff pal!” and once it didn’t align with his thoughts and perspective, he did what he did and went HAM on Hunter and NXT itself. That doesn’t undermine my point, though. If anything, that makes it worse on his end. If you’re only half paying attention to stuff, especially something important like your company’s developmental system then those faults become your faults. No ifs and buts about it. The company’s made these dramatic changes in a short space of time entirely because a bunch of people thought “But it’s Vince” until it started affecting almost four years (and potentially more) of profit reports. |
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Aug 6, 2022 1:06:01 GMT -5
Yeah but it’s Vince. He’s crazy. He probably half-saw the success NXT had and was like “oh SHIT! Great stuff pal!” and once it didn’t align with his thoughts and perspective, he did what he did and went HAM on Hunter and NXT itself. That doesn’t undermine my point, though. If anything, that makes it worse on his end. If you’re only half paying attention to stuff, especially something important like your company’s developmental system then those faults become your faults. No ifs and buts about it. The company’s made these dramatic changes in a short space of time entirely because a bunch of people thought “But it’s Vince” until it started affecting almost four years (and potentially more) of profit reports. Yeah but he was the f***ing boss, what were they gonna do? Haha. I really don’t disagree with you but I don’t think it’s necessarily the crux of what OP’ talking about. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Aug 6, 2022 1:11:34 GMT -5
That doesn’t undermine my point, though. If anything, that makes it worse on his end. If you’re only half paying attention to stuff, especially something important like your company’s developmental system then those faults become your faults. No ifs and buts about it. The company’s made these dramatic changes in a short space of time entirely because a bunch of people thought “But it’s Vince” until it started affecting almost four years (and potentially more) of profit reports. Yeah but he was the f***ing boss, what were they gonna do? Haha. I really don’t disagree with you but I don’t think it’s necessarily the crux of what OP’ talking about. Nothing, which, again, just serves my point more. If he saw there were going to be problems and did nothing about it, when those problems showed up, people blamed him for it. And it sort of is, especially since the OP has a history of taking blame away from the guy who was in charge of every important aspect of the company at one point, like as though he wasn’t literally the most powerful man in pro wrestling. |
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by fw91 on Aug 6, 2022 1:13:31 GMT -5
You’re right about NXT eventually coming off like a super Indy. I tried giving it a shot at the time but in comparison, AEW came off way more like “sports entertainment” than NXT did. At that time. And I’d like to point out to you two that, like, Vince could have changed that. Heck, he might have approved all of that, knowing full well it wasn’t going to work for what he was doing for the company which, again, makes zero sense for the long term regardless of the potential short term NXT beating Dynamite would have done. Like, regardless of what anyone says, Vince could have tried to make it work or said HHH to not do that but he didn’t. So anything that happens with talent that didn’t work…Buck stopped with him. Just like the Buck will stop with HHH, Steph and Nick if this goes the same way. yeah I get what you're saying. But it still strikes me as odd how NXT thrived and declined, independent of Vince's touches. What happened after Nakamura? (my arbitrary time frame when NXT started to decline. Yours and others may vary.) |
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Aug 6, 2022 1:14:16 GMT -5
Yeah but he was the f***ing boss, what were they gonna do? Haha. I really don’t disagree with you but I don’t think it’s necessarily the crux of what OP’ talking about. Nothing, which, again, just serves my point more. If he saw there were going to be problems and did nothing about it, when those problems showed up, people blamed him for it. And it sort of is, especially since the OP has a history of taking blame away from the guy who was in charge of every important aspect of the company at one point, like as though he wasn’t literally the most powerful man in pro wrestling. Aight. Well that’s not me, so, I’m out of this little mini-argument that’s not a argument haha |
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by fw91 on Aug 6, 2022 1:17:27 GMT -5
Yeah but he was the f***ing boss, what were they gonna do? Haha. I really don’t disagree with you but I don’t think it’s necessarily the crux of what OP’ talking about. And it sort of is, especially since the OP has a history of taking blame away from the guy who was in charge of every important aspect of the company at one point, like as though he wasn’t literally the most powerful man in pro wrestling. Just like presenting an alternative side of things, as I don't think things are cut and dry as we like to make them out to be. But hey can't make friends with everyone. My point never was Vince is blameless. My point is that I think his choice of players weren't as off base as we'd like to think. HHH is a better creative mind, but, my judgement comes from the audience reception. |
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 6, 2022 1:23:39 GMT -5
I think hhh has said he will push anything that's over even if he's not a fan himself. Like blue pants back in the day.
He's relatively normal, he'll give people a fair chance and will learn from mistakes. A lot will depend on who he surrounds himself with, he seems smart enough to realise he needs someone like Regal or Dusty who would be completely honest.
I might not like what NXT became later in his run but at it's peak it had great wrestling AND strong characters. He allowed people multiple attempts to get over with different gimmicks. It was mostly the transistion to the main roster that went wrong.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Aug 6, 2022 1:29:10 GMT -5
I think hhh has said he will push anything that's over even if he's not a fan himself. Like blue pants back in the day. He's relatively normal, he'll give people a fair chance and will learn from mistakes. A lot will depend on who he surrounds himself with, he seems smart enough to realise he needs someone like Regal or Dusty who would be completely honest. I might not like what NXT became later in his run but at it's peak it had great wrestling AND strong characters. He allowed people multiple attempts to get over with different gimmicks. It was mostly the transistion to the main roster that went wrong. Dusty was great and his loss greatly effected those transitioning to the main roster after his passing. I hate the vernacular because too many people use it as a putdown, but for lack of better terminology, Dusty was great at teaching young wrestlers how to become better "sports entertainers" |
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Post by King Devitt and the Woke Mob on Aug 6, 2022 6:46:43 GMT -5
And it sort of is, especially since the OP has a history of taking blame away from the guy who was in charge of every important aspect of the company at one point, like as though he wasn’t literally the most powerful man in pro wrestling. Just like presenting an alternative side of things, as I don't think things are cut and dry as we like to make them out to be. But hey can't make friends with everyone. My point never was Vince is blameless. My point is that I think his choice of players weren't as off base as we'd like to think. HHH is a better creative mind, but, my judgement comes from the audience reception. But...the....audience reception..............y'know what, never mind. |
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Post by 06vwgti on Aug 6, 2022 7:28:47 GMT -5
Theory looked like was going to be a classic "Vince likes this guy" rocket push only to be forgotten about once someone dangled shiny keys in front of his face and sent to Midcard Hell for the majority of his career. Look how long it took McIntyre to finally overcome that stink. At least with Triple H at the helm, he has a better chance of getting long-term success. That and goofy himbo Austin Theory in NXT was endearing in a way McMahon's Chosen One never was. In Drew's case, the difference was he wasn't over in the slightest until 3MB. No reaction. The response with Theory is there, although I agree with your last point. Booking him as a hurr hurr I'm an angry Scotsman did him no favors. I recall people posting some stuff from his early days in the UK from that period wondering why he wasn't pushed as a face. Even his main roster redebut he was back as that hurr hurr I'm angry character. And what do you know, his face push felt natural in 2020 and it got over. |
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 6, 2022 7:58:08 GMT -5
When has HHH been averse to characters as well as workmate guys? Obviously the Dusty influence, but peak NXT was full of them, Vaudevillains, Enzo, Tyler Breeze, Finn, Shinsuke, the Ascension.
HHH did what bookers should, play to strengths, hide weaknesses, workrate guys have their skills showcased, talkers get mic time, gimmicks get skits.
Even if he didn't get it, he'd try to understand what people liked about an act and lean into it.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 6, 2022 8:02:57 GMT -5
In Drew's case, the difference was he wasn't over in the slightest until 3MB. No reaction. The response with Theory is there, although I agree with your last point. Booking him as a hurr hurr I'm an angry Scotsman did him no favors. I recall people posting some stuff from his early days in the UK from that period wondering why he wasn't pushed as a face. Even his main roster redebut he was back as that hurr hurr I'm angry character. And what do you know, his face push felt natural in 2020 and it got over. For a very long time, the absolute worst thing you could do was be penciled in for greatness by Vince upon arrival. It hurt Drew, it hurt Lashley, it hurt tons of dudes who weren't nearly as good or never got their chances to prove themselves. Roman Reigns spent years in a horribly miscast role because Vince wanted it his way, audience be damned. Theory would have continued his weird and tepidly-received push, Vince would have gotten bored, and then banished him to the ether when he failed to instantly be a total package version of his idealized top star. Drew wasn't ready and got a crap character; Vince wasn't right for depushing him because he shouldn't have put him into that spot so soon and with so little effort to begin with. |
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Post by Feyrhausen on Aug 6, 2022 8:20:56 GMT -5
When has HHH been averse to characters as well as workmate guys? Obviously the Dusty influence, but peak NXT was full of them, Vaudevillains, Enzo, Tyler Breeze, Finn, Shinsuke, the Ascension. HHH did what bookers should, play to strengths, hide weaknesses, workrate guys have their skills showcased, talkers get mic time, gimmicks get skits. Even if he didn't get it, he'd try to understand what people liked about an act and lean into it. I think Vince played more of a part of super indy NXT than people may think. Beyond just him being the boss and the buck stops with him. He wanted to cut AEW off at the knees. He hired a massive amount of talent that would be AEWs cup of tea. He got USA to give him a timeslot against AEW. Is it so out there to think that he told H to do a super indy style show but in the WWE way to show the fans that they can do anything better. Only when it failed to hurt AEW did he finally listen to his money men and fire excess talent, moved the show, and turned it into his type of show. Like you say H had plenty of character, wackiness, and fun in NXT. It didnt become the super indy until AEW was on the horizon. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Aug 6, 2022 8:45:36 GMT -5
When has HHH been averse to characters as well as workmate guys? Obviously the Dusty influence, but peak NXT was full of them, Vaudevillains, Enzo, Tyler Breeze, Finn, Shinsuke, the Ascension. HHH did what bookers should, play to strengths, hide weaknesses, workrate guys have their skills showcased, talkers get mic time, gimmicks get skits. Even if he didn't get it, he'd try to understand what people liked about an act and lean into it. I think Vince played more of a part of super indy NXT than people may think. Beyond just him being the boss and the buck stops with him. He wanted to cut AEW off at the knees. He hired a massive amount of talent that would be AEWs cup of tea. He got USA to give him a timeslot against AEW. Is it so out there to think that he told H to do a super indy style show but in the WWE way to show the fans that they can do anything better. Only when it faile to hurt AEW he finally listened to his money men and fired excess talent, moved the show, and turned it into his type of show. Like you say H had plenty of character, wackiness, and fun in NXT. It didnt become the super indy until AEW was on the horizon. I'd argue it was a bit earlier than that. With how the timeframe was, it was much more when European wrestling was becoming a place to go with PROGRESS, ICW, OTT and WXW growing along with GCW becoming more of a thing in America. It was how we got WWE acquiring EVOLVE and forming partnerships with promotions and eventually hoovering them up for NXT UK. And even NXT UK was ramped up the moment ITV announced World of Sport was coming back so there were a lot of factors that basically had WWE go in recruitment overdrive. |
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