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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Dec 26, 2022 1:46:06 GMT -5
Harwood is probably gonna do like 6 episodes and get bored with it. Guy's a hell of a wrestler, but seems like he's equal parts rabble-rousing redneck and hard to please artiste. I mean, I'd want FTR in my company if I were running one, but I'm hiring someone to be their handler full-time for the sake of my sanity. That is an excellent way to describe him.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 26, 2022 5:17:22 GMT -5
Why do wrestlers care if matches are rehearsed or not that seems like one of those really weird wrestling culture things that makes absolutely no sense when you actually stop to look at it with logic. It’s purely an ego thing so you can say that you’re a better worker than someone else because you do your matches on the fly instead of planning them out ahead of time. But, yeah the Macho Man paradigm totally crushes that theory. If Pat Patterson was the agent in charge of your match, he was putting everything together down to the nanosecond. That crushes the theory as well.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 26, 2022 7:26:57 GMT -5
Harwood is probably gonna do like 6 episodes and get bored with it. Guy's a hell of a wrestler, but seems like he's equal parts rabble-rousing redneck and hard to please artiste. I mean, I'd want FTR in my company if I were running one, but I'm hiring someone to be their handler full-time for the sake of my sanity. He also doesn't really have a long list of stories he can tell either... at least that would interest an audience.
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Post by Citizen Snips on Dec 26, 2022 8:54:10 GMT -5
Would Dax’s head explode if someone read him the parts of Bret Hart’s autobiography where Bret describes planning out his matches in great detail?
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 26, 2022 9:02:01 GMT -5
Why do wrestlers care if matches are rehearsed or not that seems like one of those really weird wrestling culture things that makes absolutely no sense when you actually stop to look at it with logic. Even fans care for some reason. People on here were arguing with me about Rousey not being able to call a match in the ring and only working rehearsed matches like that should matter to us as fans.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 26, 2022 9:08:49 GMT -5
Why do wrestlers care if matches are rehearsed or not that seems like one of those really weird wrestling culture things that makes absolutely no sense when you actually stop to look at it with logic. Even fans care for some reason. People on here were arguing with me about Rousey not being able to call a match in the ring and only working rehearsed matches like that should matter to us as fans. I think I take the approach Alvarez does on WOL and the Bryan and Vinny show. Working a rehearsed match is fine and makes for good TV especially for NXT, the issue comes in that things won't always go as they're supposed to (botch, crowd not reacting) so you need to be able to react on the fly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2022 12:11:07 GMT -5
Even fans care for some reason. People on here were arguing with me about Rousey not being able to call a match in the ring and only working rehearsed matches like that should matter to us as fans. I think I take the approach Alvarez does on WOL and the Bryan and Vinny show. Working a rehearsed match is fine and makes for good TV especially for NXT, the issue comes in that things won't always go as they're supposed to (botch, crowd not reacting) so you need to be able to react on the fly.
I think that's a good way to put it. A professional will go in with a plan, but will know how and when to change those plans
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 26, 2022 15:09:49 GMT -5
I think I take the approach Alvarez does on WOL and the Bryan and Vinny show. Working a rehearsed match is fine and makes for good TV especially for NXT, the issue comes in that things won't always go as they're supposed to (botch, crowd not reacting) so you need to be able to react on the fly. I think that's a good way to put it. A professional will go in with a plan, but will know how and when to change those plans
It's like stand up, mostly it's a routine but the greats know how to run with a crowd, expand bits, drop them and deal with the unexpected.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Dec 26, 2022 18:47:01 GMT -5
Even fans care for some reason. People on here were arguing with me about Rousey not being able to call a match in the ring and only working rehearsed matches like that should matter to us as fans. I think I take the approach Alvarez does on WOL and the Bryan and Vinny show. Working a rehearsed match is fine and makes for good TV especially for NXT, the issue comes in that things won't always go as they're supposed to (botch, crowd not reacting) so you need to be able to react on the fly. That's where the planning and the rehearsal are never the problem, it's in not giving people the tools to learn how to adapt. A big part of training should be teaching people how to work through botches. Calling a match and building a match backstage are both talents, both viable, but you overcorrect if you force people into only learning one way around it and especially when the one way people learn it is the one that leaves people unaware of how to improvise or think for themselves. I remember an shoot interview clip with I think Kevin Nash where he talked about how guys would always go to Flair for wisdom and have great matches with Flair because he'd build them great matches, but he never really clued anyone in to the how or why, which left people dependent, and I think that's a big part of why WWE does it that way nowadays. Keep people in the system, dependent on WWE and on their agents, produce talents who can work the match laid out for them and stay only within the lines drawn for them, and then be utterly hopeless if they ever step out of WWE's confines.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Dec 26, 2022 21:27:38 GMT -5
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Dec 26, 2022 22:54:37 GMT -5
I think I take the approach Alvarez does on WOL and the Bryan and Vinny show. Working a rehearsed match is fine and makes for good TV especially for NXT, the issue comes in that things won't always go as they're supposed to (botch, crowd not reacting) so you need to be able to react on the fly. That's where the planning and the rehearsal are never the problem, it's in not giving people the tools to learn how to adapt. A big part of training should be teaching people how to work through botches. Calling a match and building a match backstage are both talents, both viable, but you overcorrect if you force people into only learning one way around it and especially when the one way people learn it is the one that leaves people unaware of how to improvise or think for themselves. I remember an shoot interview clip with I think Kevin Nash where he talked about how guys would always go to Flair for wisdom and have great matches with Flair because he'd build them great matches, but he never really clued anyone in to the how or why, which left people dependent, and I think that's a big part of why WWE does it that way nowadays. Keep people in the system, dependent on WWE and on their agents, produce talents who can work the match laid out for them and stay only within the lines drawn for them, and then be utterly hopeless if they ever step out of WWE's confines. Great example of that in action, the TLC 2019 main event. Kairi gets hurt, Charlotte only knows the WWE way so she just keeps trying to do shit to her, Becky and Asuka have worked elsewhere so they know how to adapt around it.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,072
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 26, 2022 23:59:04 GMT -5
Sadly I they'll always end up being unhappy regardless of where they work If you're miserable everywhere you go and everywhere you work, maybe it's you that's the issue.
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on Dec 27, 2022 0:42:56 GMT -5
Why do wrestlers care if matches are rehearsed or not that seems like one of those really weird wrestling culture things that makes absolutely no sense when you actually stop to look at it with logic. I think there's an answer that satisfies Occam's Razor, but a lot of comments since your post have kind of put the cart before the horse. My answer: because until two wrestlers get into the ring and feel the vibe of the audience, unless someone is a mind reader, no wrestler, not even the Ric Flairs or the Bret Harts or the CM Punks or John Cenas or Hulk Hogans of the world, knows how the audience is going to react. Being able to react to a dead audience or to adjust on the fly to a botch are a part of what makes someone a skilled wrestler, but to me, these characteristics are still secondary to being able to adapt to the reactions the audience is willing to give. It's like thinking about the difference between a hot AEW crowd in Garland, Texas recently versus a historically flaccid WWE crowd in Corpus Christi, Texas. It's probably been easier for wrestlers to do whatever they want when a crowd is hot than pulling every trick out of the magic box when the crowd is sitting on its hands. But I would assume the same would be true even when wrestlers have whole matches planned out. I also see a major difference between having all the big spots of a match planned versus having a whole match planned. The former allows for much more room to respond to audience feedback, whereas the latter presumably doesn't need to have an audience at all for it to take place. But we have to remember that most wrestlers now perform for TV and PPV, and the house shows are more or less inconsequential, whereas 30-40 years ago, the inverse was true. However, in defence of bookers like Pat Patterson or wrestlers like Bret Hart and Randy Savage, I think what works for them is how they told a story as the main focus of a match, the highs and lows and back-and-forths of a wrestling contest, and the moves themselves exist solely to dramatize the story. It's hard not to think that today the formula is reversed, when it's about getting moves in, often at the expense of telling a story. (And this isn't a problem exclusive to indie wrestling as many have assumed; even WWE, as the biggest company in wrestling today, can be guilty of this style of wrestling.) And by being seasoned in the territory system in which they got to work several different territories or work wrestlers with several different in-ring styles, they had savvy of the business to know what works, what doesn't, and how to get fans onboard with the telling of the story in a match.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 27, 2022 1:41:56 GMT -5
That's where the planning and the rehearsal are never the problem, it's in not giving people the tools to learn how to adapt. A big part of training should be teaching people how to work through botches. Calling a match and building a match backstage are both talents, both viable, but you overcorrect if you force people into only learning one way around it and especially when the one way people learn it is the one that leaves people unaware of how to improvise or think for themselves. I remember an shoot interview clip with I think Kevin Nash where he talked about how guys would always go to Flair for wisdom and have great matches with Flair because he'd build them great matches, but he never really clued anyone in to the how or why, which left people dependent, and I think that's a big part of why WWE does it that way nowadays. Keep people in the system, dependent on WWE and on their agents, produce talents who can work the match laid out for them and stay only within the lines drawn for them, and then be utterly hopeless if they ever step out of WWE's confines. Great example of that in action, the TLC 2019 main event. Kairi gets hurt, Charlotte only knows the WWE way so she just keeps trying to do shit to her, Becky and Asuka have worked elsewhere so they know how to adapt around it. Counter to that, the Rumble right after. Bianca only knows the WWE way, the back of Beth's head hit the ring post as they were fighting on the turnbuckles, Bianca immediately stops hitting Beth, she pulls Beth towards her, and is cradling Beth and putting pressure on Beth's wound so refs and docs can check on her. Bianca made sure if Beth were to fall then she would fall into the ring instead of the floor, and that Bianca would be holding her so she would take most of the damage not Beth.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
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Post by Dub H on Dec 27, 2022 2:30:00 GMT -5
Great example of that in action, the TLC 2019 main event. Kairi gets hurt, Charlotte only knows the WWE way so she just keeps trying to do shit to her, Becky and Asuka have worked elsewhere so they know how to adapt around it. Counter to that, the Rumble right after. Bianca only knows the WWE way, the back of Beth's head hit the ring post as they were fighting on the turnbuckles, Bianca immediately stops hitting Beth, she pulls Beth towards her, and is cradling Beth and putting pressure on Beth's wound so refs and docs can check on her. Bianca made sure if Beth were to fall then she would fall into the ring instead of the floor, and that Bianca would be holding her so she would take most of the damage not Beth. You are both wrong ,this is just about Charlotte being a selfish worker. It's not about wwe way ,it's about being a professional which Charlotte is not and the others are
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wankah
Don Corleone
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Post by wankah on Dec 27, 2022 2:56:46 GMT -5
His podcast seems like a bloody Cleveland Show.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,044
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Post by Dub H on Dec 27, 2022 3:36:45 GMT -5
His podcast seems like a bloody Cleveland Show. He wishwa he could have a banger like Balls Deep
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 27, 2022 12:58:32 GMT -5
Great example of that in action, the TLC 2019 main event. Kairi gets hurt, Charlotte only knows the WWE way so she just keeps trying to do shit to her, Becky and Asuka have worked elsewhere so they know how to adapt around it. Counter to that, the Rumble right after. Bianca only knows the WWE way, the back of Beth's head hit the ring post as they were fighting on the turnbuckles, Bianca immediately stops hitting Beth, she pulls Beth towards her, and is cradling Beth and putting pressure on Beth's wound so refs and docs can check on her. Bianca made sure if Beth were to fall then she would fall into the ring instead of the floor, and that Bianca would be holding her so she would take most of the damage not Beth. I think the performance center changed quite a bit between when Charlotte was there and when Bianca was there. I know an early issue for early PC recruits (and really FCW too) was that talent wasn't taught what to do when things didn't go 100 percent as it should. I think you were seeing the issue pop up more in NXT 2.0 when they were having super green talent go against other super green talent. When they've mixed it up and had people work with more established talent you saw better results
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Dec 27, 2022 14:54:47 GMT -5
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Facetious
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Post by Facetious on Dec 27, 2022 15:00:42 GMT -5
"SENPAIIIIIIIIII LEMME CLEAN YOU 😋😋😋"
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