So I had recently completed the 1987 TMNT series.

[agent817]

I have to say that despite how light-hearted and silly it got, it still holds up. I don't know if it's the nostalgia talking and it's clear that a lot of episodes were made to sell toys. But really, you could talk about any cartoon from that era being a glorified toy commercial, and that also includes some geared towards girls like Jem and My Little Pony.

But one thing that I noticed is that the final three seasons are considered polarizing. I know that those "Red Sky" episodes went in a darker direction. I personally didn't have a problem with those episodes, but with there being eight episodes each season, it almost felt like a miniseries. Someone told me that those episodes are an acquired taste, which I feel I had acquired. Yes, I can enjoy the other seasons before that, but I can also enjoy a more serious approach to the Fred Wolf cartoon. Because really, the 2000s series was rather dark and gritty, but it also had moments of humor.

That reminds me. Because I had also watched episodes of the 4Kids TMNT show on Paramount+, I had heard that some people didn't like the final two seasons of that series, which kind of felt like soft reboots themselves. If the "Red Sky" episodes of the Fred Wolf version can be considered controversial, I wonder how controversial the "Fast Forward" and "Back to the Sewers" episodes were. I had read that season 5 of the 4Kids version was originally supposed to end the series.

All I can say is that I find some positives in the Fred Wolf series, along with some negatives. I wasn't too keen on the European Tour arc, and I know that those episodes were originally produced for season 4 but were aired between 6 and 7 on the USA network. Hell, they were included as part of the season 7 DVDs (I own the complete series, by the way).

Do you feel that the Fred Wolf cartoon holds up at all? Now I just need to check out the 2010s Nickelodeon version. Maybe watch Rise of the TMNT while I am at it.

[thechase]

I think the old show not only holds up, it's never been bettered.

Sure, 4Kids and the 2012 Nick Shows are slightly edgier/mature, but the old show works as well as it does because it doesn't sniff it's own farts so much and goes full on Deadpool in regards to snark, every character is memorable and their own little quirks make the show a delight to sit through. Shredder and Krang's banter would not feel out of place with a lot of bickering elder male couples too. It's too bad the show didn't do a makeover episode with Irma.

I've never subscribed to the whole idea that 80s cartoons are somehow bad because they sold merchandise. I don't know what it is about that. Like people are somehow mad these shows gave them a childhood and an imagination? Sounds more like they wish they had saved up their money to pay for adult things like booze, tampons, or gas and electric bills and blame anything that they feel didn't contribute to what matters more in their old age.

[dirtyoldman]

I think if I'm correct that the toys came after the cartoon and it wasn't necessary to sell toys.
The TMN ermm H T in the UK was shown on the BBC which have a rule not showing a cartoon based on a toy. Hense why ITV got MOTU and transformers.

[HMARK Center]

Oct 11, 2022 6:50:42 GMT -5 dirtyoldman said:

I think if I'm correct that the toys came after the cartoon and it wasn't necessary to sell toys.
The TMN ermm H T in the UK was shown on the BBC which have a rule not showing a cartoon based on a toy. Hense why ITV got MOTU and transformers.

If I recall correctly, whether the toyline or cartoon came first, the cartoon would not have been OK'd for production without a toyline ready to go.

And it's not inherently bad that there were shows based around selling toys to kids (though the inherent cynicism behind it will always be galling), some of those shows absolutely moved beyond the limitations placed on them by the expectations of toy executives, but there's also a very notable difference between shows of the era and shows of the more "creator-driven" 90s. Like, in the 90s you had Beast Wars as another "this is being made to sell a new toyline" show, but damned if Mainframe didn't go far and beyond the extra mile.

It really is interesting to me how much of the '87 Turtles series I ended up missing. I was so familiar with the early seasons thanks to some VHS compilations and the syndicated episodes that would show after school some days, but then the CBS weekly Saturday morning episodes would play and I'd feel like I was missing a lot of details.

Oh, and the story of the '03 Turtles airing schedule is pretty crazy. Season 5 was effectively meant to be the end, but then they got more seasons but also demands to lighten the tone of the show and produce content for new figures being made. They ended up airing Season 5 as "Lost Episodes" and yeah, the last two seasons definitely have people who feel they just don't click as well given the new restrictions.

[dirtyoldman]

Oh I've no doubt there must have been toys thought of down the line as soon as the cartoon was established. It's just anyone from the UK can tell you how strict the BBC is about things like that. The channel doesn't even have adverts. If you're ever on a gameshow and you work in a shop that is a chain, you're not allowed to even say the name of the shop.

I do wonder why cartoons based on comics are ok cause I think the Spiderman and X-Men cartoon's where on Saturdays on bbc1.

[thechase]

Oct 12, 2022 6:48:54 GMT -5 dirtyoldman said:

Oh I've no doubt there must have been toys thought of down the line as soon as the cartoon was established. It's just anyone from the UK can tell you how strict the BBC is about things like that. The channel doesn't even have adverts. If you're ever on a gameshow and you work in a shop that is a chain, you're not allowed to even say the name of the shop.

I do wonder why cartoons based on comics are ok cause I think the Spiderman and X-Men cartoon's where on Saturdays on bbc1.

Spider-Man was shown almost exclusively on Saturdays as part of Live and Kicking on BBC ONE (it eventually moved to ITV in the 2000s), X-Men moved around the schedules, eventually airing on Sundays on Fully Booked/FBI, and also reran on weekday holiday mornings.

[Feyrhausen]

Oct 12, 2022 6:48:54 GMT -5 dirtyoldman said:

Oh I've no doubt there must have been toys thought of down the line as soon as the cartoon was established. It's just anyone from the UK can tell you how strict the BBC is about things like that. The channel doesn't even have adverts. If you're ever on a gameshow and you work in a shop that is a chain, you're not allowed to even say the name of the shop.

I do wonder why cartoons based on comics are ok cause I think the Spiderman and X-Men cartoon's where on Saturdays on bbc1.

I know you are talking about the UK but interesting facts about toys, cartoons and comics in the US.

There was a law since the 60s forbidding a cartoon based on a toyline. In the early 80s this was changed. A cartoon could be based on a toyline but you could not advertise the toy during the cartoon and you had to have an equal amount of educational programming.

They got around the educational part by putting those more you know segments at the end and claimed the cartoon was educational and essentially its own counter programming.

Gi Joe meanwhile had its own loophole. They ran commercials during the cartoon advertising the comic book. A new commercial every quarter. And they might have a commercial with a snow scene, desert scene, space scene all in 30 seconds if those were the new toys. And comic writer Larry Hama had to fit all of that in one issue and make it work narratively.

[Hit Girl]

TMNT sucks

Nothing will ever beat Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles.

[thechase]

Oct 12, 2022 16:37:01 GMT -5 Hit Girl said:

TMNT sucks

Nothing will ever beat Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles.

Even How It All Began is better edited than Batman v Superman