Moolah's 1987 face turn

[Aceorton]

Watching the first Survivor Series (35 years ago ... dear Lord, I'm old), and I still don't get the Moolah-Sherri double turn that preceded this show.

Moolah was hated for years, just a nasty old shrew. Sherri debuts in July and beats Moolah for the belt in her very first match. ALmost immediately after, Sherri goes heel. Moolah is now face by default and NO ONE wants to cheer for her.

Is there a story behind this that I'm not aware of? Were they trying to give Moolah some kind of farewell face run and just did it in the laziest way possible? Did they want Sherri as a young heel champion but didn't feel like having a transitional champ to get the belt from Moolah to Sherri?

[ThankGodForSidJustice]

If I had to guess they wanted Sherri heel as that was a better fit for her so they wanted to switch her but with the Survivor Series coming up it wouldn't make sense for Moolah to be on her team since she's the one she beat for the title so they just stuck Moolah on the face team. I don't remember Moolah appearing after Survivor Series so I guess it was just a one time thing.

Why they didn't use a transition champion I'm not sure. Maybe they felt it would put Sherri over more to beat Moolah. Or they could've just thought Sherri could get over as the face center piece of the division before having second thoughts. Or just simply because they didn't have any good options to be the transition champion. They had already done a quickie title reign with Velvet McIntyre the year before where she beat Moolah and then lost it right back on I think an Australian Tour. I don't know if Rockin Robin was there yet. I know she was at Survivor Series but I don't recall her appearing before that.

[XIII]

I mainly remember the Fink announcing Moolah as 165 lbs or something and Moolah getting pissed. lol

[lildude8218]

What made things worse is I don't think Moolah even appeared on television after losing the belt so people probably just thought she was still a heel. I don't even remember them ever saying who was going to be on each team.

[horsemen4ever]

Well they realized in the 2000's the way for her to get face sympathy is to have wrestlers beat her up like 3 Minute Warning and Test.

[Chuck Conry]

Watched this show yesterday myself. Rockin Robin seemed to be having an off night to say the least. That match got sloppy.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Nov 26, 2022 19:46:02 GMT -5 Chuck Conry said:

Watched this show yesterday myself. Rockin Robin seemed to be having an off night to say the least. That match got sloppy.

Still better than her off key caterwauling that was America the Beautiful at Mania 5, only took her a couple tries.

[sungod2020]

Nov 26, 2022 16:49:42 GMT -5 lildude8218 said:

What made things worse is I don't think Moolah even appeared on television after losing the belt so people probably just thought she was still a heel. I don't even remember them ever saying who was going to be on each team.

That's a good point you brought up. Watching the Survivor Series pre-show the other day, they showed the title change that lead up to that match with Sherri being the face(and even getting cheered for it) while Moolah reacting in a heelish manner, so there wasn't even an explanation for the double turn. Was Sherri's heel turn ever explained? Did she do anything(such as turning on a tag team partner) between the title change and the pay per view?

I get Sherri makes a better heel than a babyface, but if they were so adamant on turning her heel, it would've made more sense to do it after the show. Just have her blame one of her Survivor Series teammates for costing her the match, which would set up a match between her and either Velvet McIntyre or Rockin Robin(who she was going to feud with throughout the year anyway) on either Saturday Night's Main Event or Royal Rumble(or one for each event) and there ya go. 

[nisidhe]

Nov 30, 2022 7:46:28 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

Nov 26, 2022 16:49:42 GMT -5 lildude8218 said:

What made things worse is I don't think Moolah even appeared on television after losing the belt so people probably just thought she was still a heel. I don't even remember them ever saying who was going to be on each team.

That's a good point you brought up. Watching the Survivor Series pre-show the other day, they showed the title change that lead up to that match with Sherri being the face(and even getting cheered for it) while Moolah reacting in a heelish manner, so there wasn't even an explanation for the double turn. Was Sherri's heel turn ever explained? Did she do anything(such as turning on a tag team partner) between the title change and the pay per view?

I get Sherri makes a better heel than a babyface, but if they were so adamant on turning her heel, it would've made more sense to do it after the show. Just have her blame one of her Survivor Series teammates for costing her the match, which would set up a match between her and either Velvet McIntyre or Rockin Robin(who she was going to feud with throughout the year anyway) on either Saturday Night's Main Event or Royal Rumble(or one for each event) and there ya go. 

It assumes that WWE had any real interest in keeping the women's title going at that point. Then again, there was a bit of a blip in interest at the time caused by the shock title change.

I'm wondering if it was around this time that Moolah was found mucking up the Jumping Bomb Angels' visa standing and that, as a likely consequence, she was effectively made to lose the title and to step back from any involvement with the women's division? Robin was a very rare exception in that she had trained and worked outside Moolah's system, and perhaps was protected from reprisals given that her brother was also in WWE.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2022 6:18:13 GMT -5 nisidhe said:

Nov 30, 2022 7:46:28 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

That's a good point you brought up. Watching the Survivor Series pre-show the other day, they showed the title change that lead up to that match with Sherri being the face(and even getting cheered for it) while Moolah reacting in a heelish manner, so there wasn't even an explanation for the double turn. Was Sherri's heel turn ever explained? Did she do anything(such as turning on a tag team partner) between the title change and the pay per view?

I get Sherri makes a better heel than a babyface, but if they were so adamant on turning her heel, it would've made more sense to do it after the show. Just have her blame one of her Survivor Series teammates for costing her the match, which would set up a match between her and either Velvet McIntyre or Rockin Robin(who she was going to feud with throughout the year anyway) on either Saturday Night's Main Event or Royal Rumble(or one for each event) and there ya go. 

It assumes that WWE had any real interest in keeping the women's title going at that point. Then again, there was a bit of a blip in interest at the time caused by the shock title change.

I'm wondering if it was around this time that Moolah was found mucking up the Jumping Bomb Angels' visa standing and that, as a likely consequence, she was effectively made to lose the title and to step back from any involvement with the women's division? Robin was a very rare exception in that she had trained and worked outside Moolah's system, and perhaps was protected from reprisals given that her brother was also in WWE.

I honestly don't know how close Jake and Rockin' Robin are or were, but if they even remotely had a relationship I can almost guarantee Jake was worth more to Vince than Moolah, so probably.

[auph10imitated]

I dont think anything was ever done to establish Moolah was a babyface, Sherri was seemingly the babyface in the match she beat Moolah for it, but I have a feeling it was designed to move Moolah out and Sherri in as the top heel (as she had been in the AWA)

Sherri next appeared in a title defence on Superstars and proclaimed herself Sensational Sherri and was basically a heel and I feel the "Sensational" name was based of "Fabulous" Moolah and Sherri was basically taking that top heel spot with no questions asked.

Moolah was simply put as the captain at the SS match by weird default as she didnt do anything after losing the title and overall the match itself was more a GG/JBA showcase which is what they were going to focus on the next few months.

[XaviersSS2015hair]

Nov 26, 2022 13:24:06 GMT -5 XIII said:

I mainly remember the Fink announcing Moolah as 165 lbs or something and Moolah getting pissed. lol

She should have been flattered. 165 pounds sounds generous for Moolah.

[jason1980s]

Dec 2, 2022 6:18:13 GMT -5 nisidhe said:

I'm wondering if it was around this time that Moolah was found mucking up the Jumping Bomb Angels' visa standing and that, as a likely consequence, she was effectively made to lose the title and to step back from any involvement with the women's division? Robin was a very rare exception in that she had trained and worked outside Moolah's system, and perhaps was protected from reprisals given that her brother was also in WWE.

Now I remember Moolah being phased out and not used after issues with the Angels in early 88. Originally I thought the face turn was Vince liking Moolah and wanting her last days as a wrestler to be as a face. But it was hard for fans to get behind her without much help from the commentators and other wrestlers portraying her as good. I still do feel like Vince did this for her because he surely brought her back and gave her legends treatment in 99-2000 and the relationship was good enough as she was ringside for Wrestlemania X and she got an early HOF induction. Vince seemed to love a lot of the early WWWF talents who worked for his father and had a loyalty to them that you didn't see much of with his own WWF/E people.

[nisidhe]

Dec 5, 2022 23:54:43 GMT -5 jason1980s said:

Dec 2, 2022 6:18:13 GMT -5 nisidhe said:

I'm wondering if it was around this time that Moolah was found mucking up the Jumping Bomb Angels' visa standing and that, as a likely consequence, she was effectively made to lose the title and to step back from any involvement with the women's division? Robin was a very rare exception in that she had trained and worked outside Moolah's system, and perhaps was protected from reprisals given that her brother was also in WWE.

Now I remember Moolah being phased out and not used after issues with the Angels in early 88. Originally I thought the face turn was Vince liking Moolah and wanting her last days as a wrestler to be as a face. But it was hard for fans to get behind her without much help from the commentators and other wrestlers portraying her as good. I still do feel like Vince did this for her because he surely brought her back and gave her legends treatment in 99-2000 and the relationship was good enough as she was ringside for Wrestlemania X and she got an early HOF induction. Vince seemed to love a lot of the early WWWF talents who worked for his father and had a loyalty to them that you didn't see much of with his own WWF/E people.

I think you might be right about the dating, there. But it still escapes me why Moolah, after a lifetime of playing heel, would agree to going out as a face - and why Vince would be so keen to present her as a face. I'm not sure who got Vince's eyes on the Angels, but it was absolutely clear that he was keen to have them in North America at least as a special attraction because their moveset was better than some of the men's teams. But what was clear was that, by the end 1989, the women's division was once again dormant (I don't recall Robin ever losing the Women's title in the ring), Martel was now a valet for Randy Savage, and Moolah was no longer involved with WWE. The Angels fiasco derailed whatever plans Vince might have had, and may have turned Vince against allowing Moolah any pull over his company again.

[jason1980s]

Dec 6, 2022 18:23:51 GMT -5 nisidhe said:

I think you might be right about the dating, there. But it still escapes me why Moolah, after a lifetime of playing heel, would agree to going out as a face - and why Vince would be so keen to present her as a face. I'm not sure who got Vince's eyes on the Angels, but it was absolutely clear that he was keen to have them in North America at least as a special attraction because their moveset was better than some of the men's teams. But what was clear was that, by the end 1989, the women's division was once again dormant (I don't recall Robin ever losing the Women's title in the ring), Martel was now a valet for Randy Savage, and Moolah was no longer involved with WWE. The Angels fiasco derailed whatever plans Vince might have had, and may have turned Vince against allowing Moolah any pull over his company again.

Vince and the people from his father's era really fascinate me. There must have been a rift between he and Moolah since she wasn't seen for years after 87 or early 88. She did the Slamboree 93 introduction and maybe Vince got her back for the audience at Wrestlemania to right his wrong in letting Andre go. He lost Andre to WCW and didn't want to lose Moolah. Maybe I'm grasping at straws as Andre was so much more for WWF then she was but Vince seemed to have a soft spot for those Vince Sr. people. He tried doing everything he could with Billy Graham and probably did feel bad for letting him go. He would probably have still been working with Bruno if Bruno hadn't left so bitterly and by the numbers several from the 94-96 classes were still working for him, had some sort of lifetime deal or got repeated comebacks. They were Skaaland, Gorilla, James Dudley (my favorite!), Strongbow and Blassie, Steele and Moolah, Captain Lou, Snuka, Patterson.