MJF, "The Devil "& The Current Real Environment

[Milkman Norm]

This is a thread I've been thinking about making since the tease of the babyface turn. I haven't because it skirts against our number one rule and it's a difficult conversation to have. If this thread gets locked I'll understand completely. I think this needs to be said. In our current political environment, with public instances of antisemitism disturbingly on the rise, having an openly Jewish wrestler betray the audience by revealing he is "the devil" doesn't sit well with me. It just plays into a harmful stereotype at a time when we are seeing real life examples of hate crimes targeting Jewish people & their Synagogue's. I'm sure it was neither Tony or Max's intent but when I was watching the build it was a major reason why I was hopeful it was leading to a real face turn.

[Fake Jesus]

You shouldn't have made this thread, not because it breaks any rules, but because it's really dumb.

[champchumpchange]

He's the devil because he came out to Sympathy for the Devil and he's a duplicitous asshole, nothing to do with his religion.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2022 10:44:47 GMT -5 champchumpchange said:

He's the devil because he came out to Sympathy for the Devil and he's a duplicitous asshole, nothing to do with his religion.

You and I have had our disagreements since I came here, but I couldn't have phrased that any better myself. 

[Allie Kitsune]

I get the sentiment, but he's a heel because he's (at least in kayfabe) a Machiavellian Jerk who plays the sympathy card and then shits all over anyone who takes it at face value.

Not because of his ethnicity or religion.

[SneakMan]

Believe me, as a non-practicing Jew who's still Jewish enough to have been called slurs, I get the need to be on guard, especially nowadays. But MJF is a piece of shit who happens to be Jewish - nowhere in either the text or the subtext of this current angle is it even remotely implied that he's a piece of shit because he's Jewish. I mean by your logic he shouldn't be portraying his "heel rich guy" character because that also feeds into centuries-old stereotypes. 

[canceled4truth]

MJF should deliver a promo about how critical race theory explains how he can be a Jewish heel in storyline, but that not all Jews are heels

[Cyno]

Are you Jewish, OP?

As a Jewish person myself, I disagree with your take on MJF, but if you are Jewish I get the concern with him using what has been an antisemitic trope in the past. I don't think it's intentional on his part and I doubt most people who see his act make the association as the "Jew = devil" trope was based more on stereotypical physical features of ethnically Jewish people than us being the biggest bastards around. But with antisemitism on the rise, I totally understand being on edge about anything that can be perceived as such.

If you're not Jewish, then it isn't your place to start the conversation.

[The Ichi]

I'm confident that if MJF himself felt there was any an anti-semantic feel about it, it would be shut down immediately.

[Deleted]

Dec 2, 2022 11:23:40 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

I'm confident that if MJF himself felt there was any an anti-semantic feel about it, it would be shut down immediately.

In the years I've been watching MJF, I've only seen him break character when Hangman got concussed or when he was dealing with antisemitism. 

[Milkman Norm]

Dec 2, 2022 11:17:05 GMT -5 Cyno said:

Are you Jewish, OP?

No. And others see this angle differently, that's cool. I just have had issues.

[Milkman Norm]

Dec 2, 2022 10:56:25 GMT -5 SneakMan said:

Believe me, as a non-practicing Jew who's still Jewish enough to have been called slurs, I get the need to be on guard, especially nowadays. But MJF is a piece of shit who happens to be Jewish - nowhere in either the text or the subtext of this current angle is it even remotely implied that he's a piece of shit because he's Jewish. I mean by your logic he shouldn't be portraying his "heel rich guy" character because that also feeds into centuries-old stereotypes. 

True, but I think, to me, if he wasn't referencing his religious or cultural background in character I'd feel a little differently about it. Like Scott Levy is from a culturally Jewish background but I don't think that was part of either Johnny Polo or Raven, if that makes sense.

[Celexa Bliss 54]

All due respect, you're reading way too much into this. "The Devil" thing is a callback to the feud with Punk, which itself was a callback to when Punk turned heel in ROH when he threatened to hand the title to Vince McMahon. It ties into his history of backstabbing and false face turns, as well and how working with him is "making a deal with the devil". Nothing even remotely religious about it.

[Celexa Bliss 54]

Dec 2, 2022 11:40:45 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

Dec 2, 2022 10:56:25 GMT -5 SneakMan said:

Believe me, as a non-practicing Jew who's still Jewish enough to have been called slurs, I get the need to be on guard, especially nowadays. But MJF is a piece of shit who happens to be Jewish - nowhere in either the text or the subtext of this current angle is it even remotely implied that he's a piece of shit because he's Jewish. I mean by your logic he shouldn't be portraying his "heel rich guy" character because that also feeds into centuries-old stereotypes. 

True, but I think, to me, if he wasn't referencing his religious or cultural background in character I'd feel a little differently about it. Like Scott Levy is from a culturally Jewish background but I don't think that was part of either Johnny Polo or Raven, if that makes sense.

The only time he's mentioned his heritage on TV is when referring to his childhood and being picked on for being different, which has been done to draw sympathy when luring people in. But trying to draw a line between that and his gimmick being antisemitic is a huge leap.

[Deleted]

I don't think it inherently had anything to do with HIS religion or any religion for that matter but I do understand that the general public relates "The Devil" as an entity directly to religion so I could see how someone religious could be offended by the proclamation. We also then have to start comparing apples and oranges though when we have Bobby Lashley also calling himself The Almighty.

Unfortunately, lines will always be drawn much quicker from a tv show depiction than 2022 personal standards and I guess we will all see where it lands

[pinja]

One cannot say that alluding to the devil has nothing to do with religion when the devil is a religious concept. If I write a story about an old man living on a houseboat with a bunch of animals when suddenly a monsoon sets in, I cannot claim that it has nothing to do with the story of Noahs ark either. When I read it with an intertextual eye, then Noahs ark definitely predates it and has to be compared to it for analytical reasons. MJF's claim to be the devil could not exist without religion.

This has nothing to do with whether the devil is inherently anti-semitic (it isn't) or can be portrayed as anti-semitic (it can), and if MJF's play on the devil is problematic (I don't think it is).

[Non Banjoble Tokens]

MJF needs to paint his face up like David Puddy and run around yelling at and harassing the fans in the audience.

[wankah]

I dunno, how about taking everyone as individuals?

[This Player Hating Mothman]

I don't see MJF's character asp laying into any of typical antisemitic stereotypes at all; his actions don't correlate to any of the reasons behind hatred or paranoia, he's just an ego monster. His Jewishness and his villainy are all very separated from one another, which is the vital piece. The negative traits we boo him for are not things that are in any way coded as negative antisemitic caricatures or traits that have been historically fearmongered.

I can only speak in kind of adjacency to this issue in terms of queer portrayals, and queer-coded characters have had a real f***ing run of villainizing and marginalizing in media across the past century too, when I say that it's actually kind of big and important to have villains who are incidentally that thing but not really in relation to that thing. That an openly Jewish man can be a top heel in a promotion is still a big and valuable thing. It's visibility to and uplift for him, and maybe his whole kayfabe dedication schtick means that he won't really ever parlay that into some kind of great ambassadorship, but I don't think having the main character of prime time weekly television be a Jewish guy really hurts things, either. When an identity is something normalized enough that you can just be it with no specific strings attached or it defining you, and you can then be whatever character a narrative needs, that's actually a positive thing.

[Cyno]

Also it has nothing to do with MJF's religion because the Devil does not exist in Judaism. There is a being referred to as "ha-satan" (which translates from Hebrew as "the adversary"). But in Judaism, Satan is an agent of God (likely an angel of some kind) that works as a sort of divine prosecutor that tests humanity's faith and loyalty on God's behalf. Not the personification of all evil.