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Post by Mid-Carder on Jul 23, 2023 9:21:37 GMT -5
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm still a CM Punk fan, largely enjoying his return and it's not him that's booking this. It was also dumb when they did it with Shawn. It was NOT dumb when they did Punk/Cena because Punk DID have a claim to it. If Punk has a claim to a belt, Thunder Rosa does too when she returns. I am perfectly fine with the latter if it leads to a good plotline and/or match. But fair enough, I apologise for thinking you were part of the anti-Punk crowd. The Shawn/Razor plotline is pretty beloved and led to a legendary match that permanently popularised ladder matches in American wrestling, so it's weird to me to not like it, but hey, I don't like Rock or Undertaker so I'm not gonna say you're not entitled to have an unusual wrestling opinion. Fellow longtime non-Taker fan here. It's a tough life as a wrestling fan. Also, the Shawn/Razor ladder match itself is excellent and no doubt if this is going somewhere and there's an eventual Punk match (with MJF?) if it's great we'll also forget about this story too
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Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
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Post by Blade on Jul 23, 2023 9:31:49 GMT -5
"I didn't lose the title because nobody beat me for it" is not the same as lugging around a bag with the title in it. Also no, you don't know why people are complaining about the story, and given you're the same one who like a month ago was calling out another member for not using their mind-reading powers to stop the war in Ukraine, I think the presumption that everyone's just a bad faith liar and you know it full well is a hilarious one. You have yourself some kind of a day. You have one too. Now that you've misunderstood two of my posts, I'd say we're even and hopefully you can get over your grudge. I never said anyone is a bad faith liar. You jumped to that assumption, but in fact my belief is that the opinions here on Punk are based on an extreme echo chamber and bias, but are sincerely held by those opining them. (In this case I was incorrect anyway, since the person I'm responding to wasn't making that argument due to disliking Punk.) Lugging around a bag with the title in it is in fact one way to say that in wrestling. Perhaps you missed that having his own belt is in fact what Shawn Michaels did, which was the very comparison I used. Ric Flair also did the same thing when he came to WWF before that. Showing up with a belt you never lost in the ring is an old, old wrestling thing and the only reason you've given for it being different and bad here is because Punk's not a heel, which is to my mind not a big distinction given he's playing tweener. If you think it is a big distinction, then okay, we can disagree.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jul 23, 2023 9:43:14 GMT -5
"I didn't lose the title because nobody beat me for it" is not the same as lugging around a bag with the title in it. Also no, you don't know why people are complaining about the story, and given you're the same one who like a month ago was calling out another member for not using their mind-reading powers to stop the war in Ukraine, I think the presumption that everyone's just a bad faith liar and you know it full well is a hilarious one. You have yourself some kind of a day. You have one too. Now that you've misunderstood two of my posts, I'd say we're even and hopefully you can get over your grudge. I never said anyone is a bad faith liar. You jumped to that assumption, but in fact my belief is that the opinions here on Punk are based on an extreme echo chamber and bias, but are sincerely held by those opining them. (In this case I was incorrect anyway, since the person I'm responding to wasn't making that argument due to disliking Punk.) Lugging around a bag with the title in it is in fact one way to say that in wrestling. Perhaps you missed that having his own belt is in fact what Shawn Michaels did, which was the very comparison I used. Ric Flair also did the same thing when he came to WWF before that. Showing up with a belt you never lost in the ring is an old, old wrestling thing and the only reason you've given for it being different and bad here is because Punk's not a heel, which is to my mind not a big distinction given he's playing tweener. If you think it is a big distinction, then okay, we can disagree. When people say "I don't like this story because of this" and that becomes 'people think this because CM Punk' then alright sure fine I'm reading that from a different angle about the sincerity you see, I'll cop to that. But there is still the assumption of why. I don't have a grudge, that post from last month just stuck around in my head for how egregious it was, and I think that issue fundamentally applies here because you are not in the heads of anyone to know why they dislike something or what drives the things they think, so my call there still applies. You just don't get to call someone on mind reading that hardcore but then say why people really think something. Whether you think they believe it or not, the idea is still at its core the dismissal of what someone thinks for things you are not able to see or perceive, and if someone says 'I think this is bad wrestling for these reasons", I feel like saying that if you pull back the curtain the psychological truth is just anti-CM Punk echo chambers, that's still kind of a greasy accusation that leaves a lot hanging in the air about anything they say about any reasons they do give having that inkling of not being the real reason behind it. Even if you're not intending to call someone a liar, the road there leaves that implication. And no, I understand the Shawn Michaels comparison. I didn't miss it. I just posts before said that Shawn Michaels was a heel and he had the belt to make a claim that was dishonest when he made it. I don't think Punk's really a tweener, I think he's a guy taking some weak really weak shots at crowds that boo him, but in all narrative terms he is playing as a face. He's generally working face style in matches, people are turning on him, he's aligned himself in opposition to heels but not really at all to any faces so far. Punk has always been an edgier face, but that doesn't mean he's really working in any sort of middle ground, he's just not a passive white meat kinda guy. He's also making these claims in opposition to MJF, a guy so bad that you can't really play shades of grey in opposition to him. I think he's at least face enough that holding the belt and saying he's the champion when he got rightly stripped of it is a shitty move that is not actually a face move at all. He can say he never lost it, say he wants to it back, he can fight like hell for it and say he'd be champion right now if not for X, but he can't hold onto the belt and ask someone if they want to fight him for it.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jul 23, 2023 9:56:35 GMT -5
I think heel or face it makes sense for someone who never lost the title in the ring to push for a match with the current title holder. You get it in boxing or MMA too. If you never actually beat the previous champion for the title there's always that feeling of "are you only champion right now because the other guy got injured/suspended, could you actually beat them for the title?" Then if the money is right and egos allow it you do the big match when the other person returns to determine who the undisputed champ is.
The weird thing about it to me is that Punk has already lost since returning. His first promo back he said no one pinned or submitted me for this and it felt like a clear path for him to go unbeaten for a couple months until they do the "champ v champ" match with MJF but he just got pinned by Starks last week so any big undisputed battle with MJF feels like it has less heat if Punk has just been dropping matches on TV.
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Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,715
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Post by Kalmia on Jul 23, 2023 9:57:55 GMT -5
Punk is doing this in a very heelish way. I don't think it's necessarily a heel move to say that he never lost the title, but a face would want to prove themselves worthy of being champ by beating everyone and working their way back to the champion. Heels parade around with belts that aren't theirs and declare themselves the champion.
I don't think Punk carrying around the belt and acting like he's still champion is a bad angle. But I do think it's a dumb one unless he's a heel.
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Facetious
King Koopa
ADAM COLE BAYBAY
Posts: 11,694
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Post by Facetious on Jul 23, 2023 10:11:37 GMT -5
I think Punk's turning heel in the near future, just from his call backs from his heel turn in WWE, but a lot of the heelish tendencies he has he shown his during his first run. He'd run down local hockey teams from time to time, be a massive dickhead to faces (Eddie/Hangman) and heels (MJF). Punk is doing this in a very heelish way. I don't think it's necessarily a heel move to say that he never lost the title, but a face would want to prove themselves worthy of being champ by beating everyone and working their way back to the champion. Heels parade around with belts that aren't theirs and declare themselves the champion. I don't think Punk carrying around the belt and acting like he's still champion is a bad angle. But I do think it's a dumb one unless he's a heel. Yeah that's where I'm at. It isn't an enticing angle. Punk is great at narrative driven storylines, but even with how early it is, he isn't drawing me into I'M THE REAL CHAMP angle as a edgy babyface
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jul 23, 2023 10:18:47 GMT -5
I think Punk's turning heel in the near future, just from his call backs from his heel turn in WWE, but a lot of the heelish tendencies he has he shown his during his first run. He'd run down local hockey teams from time to time, be a massive dickhead to faces (Eddie/Hangman) and heels (MJF). Yeah this is the part that gives me so much pause. Punk was anchored pretty concretely into being a face to a sort of insane degree by the end of it with that pre-All Out hype-up segment. He was very much a face through that run and any sense that he was leading in to a heel turn either wasn't there or turned was the Hangman stuff that turned out to all be a shoot and actually the guy doing what he in real life thought was right. It's really hard to tell what's him being edgy or just himself from what's actually being a heel move anymore. He could go heel, we'll see, but right now the stuff he's doing is hard to tell from just the stuff he's always done, and he needs to actually provide like some kind of narrative heel something to indicate that's the direction that he's genuinely going in.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,294
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Post by Fade on Jul 23, 2023 10:40:15 GMT -5
The Phil “I was never beaten” stuff makes me nauseous but they’re bound to run back an MJF/Phil feud, so whatever.
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Post by xCompackx on Jul 23, 2023 10:42:47 GMT -5
I don't see what more you could get from a MJF/Punk feud that we didn't get the first time and I also don't think Punk needs a world title run anyway so this whole thing does nothing for me.
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Blade
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,943
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Post by Blade on Jul 23, 2023 10:58:26 GMT -5
Punk is doing this in a very heelish way. I don't think it's necessarily a heel move to say that he never lost the title, but a face would want to prove themselves worthy of being champ by beating everyone and working their way back to the champion. Heels parade around with belts that aren't theirs and declare themselves the champion. I don't think Punk carrying around the belt and acting like he's still champion is a bad angle. But I do think it's a dumb one unless he's a heel. My guess is the whole thing was to feed into a match with KENTA (because bag) and there isn't really a clear idea what to do with it now that that didn't happen. I also guess they both want Punk to turn heel and reprise a feud with MJF, but are playing it by ear in terms of seeing how crowds react and letting Punk get his wheels back under him again to see how and when those things are going to happen. There may also be some pressure from above not to have Punk go dastardly heel right away because he's being pushed as the face of the brand. If crowds were more unanimously rejecting Punk or his segments did poorly in the ratings, that'd probably pressure them to turn him heel sooner. As is, they're probably in a holding pattern until MJF is done with Cole (which honestly I'd rather they didn't because MJF doesn't need to beat Cole and Punk right now, he's had quite enough feathers in his cap for one title reign).
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Post by Cyno on Jul 23, 2023 13:13:10 GMT -5
He didn't immediately ask for a title match either, but he also never lost it. He's staking his claim to it, a bit of a nod to how he had the double belt when Cena won it as well MJF's belt is a custom, it makes total sense why he still has the original belt too. Not the first time we've seen someone have to vacate the title and then go "I never lost, I want my shot" either He did lose it, he was stripped of it. He didn't leave with the belt. The difference with Cena is Punk left with the title. The title was removed from Punk and that's the belt that Mox won. As you say, MJF's is a custom so technically it's him who has the other belt. But WWE also stripped Punk of the title after he "left." Both times he was stripped albeit under different circumstances, both times he claimed to have never truly lost his title and had a physical title with him in spite of the recognized champion also having a legitimate belt.
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Dang!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,279
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Post by Dang! on Jul 24, 2023 4:41:20 GMT -5
its Gweneth Paltrow's head What's the context?
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jul 24, 2023 4:47:59 GMT -5
its Gweneth Paltrow's head What's the context? It's from the movie Seven. Gwyneth's character's head is implied to be in the box that Brad Pitt's character(her husband) is given. It spawned the "what's in the box?!" line
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