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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 6, 2023 12:45:03 GMT -5
Aside from the fact that no part of the Bloodline saga has been that poorly thought out, they have been foreshadowing this exact scenario for a minute. Jimmy has been hating on Jey behind his back ever since it was made known that Jey was the right hand man and heir apparent to the role of Tribal Cheif. Jimmy was always supposed to be the bigger deal of the two (most likely to succeed, prom king, etc.) but became increasingly jealous when Jey began to surpass him. Jimmy's time in the Bloodline actually ended when Jey threw him out ("You out... And I'm out, too!). All the attention from the tag team match was centered on Jey pinning Roman. Post-tag match, Jimmy gets hospitalized while Jey get a Summerslam main event for the title and mantle of Tribal Cheif. Finally, they've spent the last few weeks explaining that the entire family (including Jimmy and the elders) blames Jey's selfishness for the shattering of the Bloodline and the injuries Jimmy sustained. It was shockinh when Jimmy interfered, but it makes sense when you think about the story they've told. Exactly, we get caught up too much on Roman winning, we fail to see that objectively it all makes sense The issue is that WWE created the environment where that's what people are going to get caught up in; you can't just keep running the same match on repeat for this long without that happening. WCW conditioned its audience to stand up and turn towards the entrance ramp any time it looked like a Hogan title match was nearing its finish; they anticipating the nWo run in, the only question was if a WCW guy would cut the nWo off and hopefully allow for a clean and/or babyface win. That's not the end of the world to book, since at some point when you subvert the crowd's expectation and do give them the happy ending the place will go nuts (as it did when Luger beat Hogan), but if you do it for multiple years then you've likely conditioned your audience to think that nothing except "did Roman win, and if he did who interfered for him this time?" matters. It's still working for WWE overall, so I can't say they're wrong business-wise to keep dipping in the well; I also doubt they go full WCW on this and botch what needs to be the definitive end of the story and pull a Starrcade '97 or something. But you can't be shocked when at least some fans start seeing how things keep going and eventually get bored with it when you have these 30+ minute main event segments that amount to "only the last few minutes of this will mean anything."
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,512
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Post by Fade on Aug 6, 2023 13:24:46 GMT -5
Was I watching a completely different show from you guys? This show ruled. I felt this was yet another strong PLE in what’s been kind of a crazy quality year for WWE. Logan’s a douche but he and Ricochet had a fun spot fest, Cody/Brock III was a dramatic instant classic, the battle royale was fun and the fans loved the finish, Gunther and Drew murdered each other, the Iyo cash in was a great moment and the triple threat before that was entertaining, and the main event was decent at the worst- at no point did I think Jey was winning, but I couldn’t care less because I wanted to see how the plot of Roman slowly losing his power was going to develop. The one hiccup for me was the boring-as-shit MMA match that killed the crowd. And BelAir playing Superwoman has made her massively over, that and she’s charismatic and can work so I don’t really mind her being in that position. I’m not going to get into the whole thing about how I believe WWE’s treated Asuka far better than her fans claim, that’s a whole different topic in itself. Completely agreed. It’s even got ppl who “don’t care” or “don’t like it” talking about it quite a bit.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 6, 2023 14:00:00 GMT -5
And I’m not saying it’s bad or you’re dumb if you didn’t enjoy the show, I just felt the highs outweighed the lows for the most part. Jey/Roman was a bit overlong IMO but that’s been his and Heyman’s game plan for a while, tons of time to make sure every detail and change of expression for the story is sinking in, I guess.
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Post by Some Guy on Aug 6, 2023 14:14:57 GMT -5
And I’m not saying it’s bad or you’re dumb if you didn’t enjoy the show, I just felt the highs outweighed the lows for the most part. Jey/Roman was a bit overlong IMO but that’s been his and Heyman’s game plan for a while, tons of time to make sure every detail and change of expression for the story is sinking in, I guess. I don't care about his plans! I just want the main events to feature wrestling and not 25 minutes of glances and drama build up garbage. Every Roman match is a completely slog that has 50 interference spots and I'm sick of that shit. Granted I also don't care about this story whatsoever. I don't think anyone here besides Heyman is a good actor (with Sami out of it), and even he hasn't been particularly good in it. They want to make "cinema" and it's lower level soap opera garbage. I just want to see a wrestling story in a wrestling show. Never has any story this company has done featured less wrestling than this.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,512
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Post by Fade on Aug 6, 2023 14:19:48 GMT -5
And I’m not saying it’s bad or you’re dumb if you didn’t enjoy the show, I just felt the highs outweighed the lows for the most part. Jey/Roman was a bit overlong IMO but that’s been his and Heyman’s game plan for a while, tons of time to make sure every detail and change of expression for the story is sinking in, I guess. Only solutions I could think of was the match just being for “role of tribal chief” or placing it at the mid-way point of the PPV. But I think Brock wanted to get the f*** out quick. And I guess they wanted Jey to be “going for the title” even though everyone and their mother knew he was losing.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 8,376
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Post by Nosnorb on Aug 6, 2023 14:31:10 GMT -5
I like Drew but this was a phenomenal match and he lost to a guy who hasn't lost a singles match on the main roster. It's not like he walks out of the match looking bad. He absolutely did not walk out of that match looking good. Far from it. For a face, his PPV record since he lost to Bobby Lashley at WM37 in Tampa has been absolutely shocking. Dude hasn't won a title match on PPV since crowds came back and this is the second PPV in a row that he has lost to Gunther. Sure, he got pinned by an undefeated Gunther, but for a dude that beat Beastie Boy in the main event of 'mania, his record on PPV since he lost the WWE Championship match to Lashley has been absolutely shite.
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Post by crowley1986 on Aug 6, 2023 14:35:46 GMT -5
Was I watching a completely different show from you guys? This show ruled. I felt this was yet another strong PLE in what’s been kind of a crazy quality year for WWE. Logan’s a douche but he and Ricochet had a fun spot fest, Cody/Brock III was a dramatic instant classic, the battle royale was fun and the fans loved the finish, Gunther and Drew murdered each other, the Iyo cash in was a great moment and the triple threat before that was entertaining, and the main event was decent at the worst- at no point did I think Jey was winning, but I couldn’t care less because I wanted to see how the plot of Roman slowly losing his power was going to develop. The one hiccup for me was the boring-as-shit MMA match that killed the crowd. And BelAir playing Superwoman has made her massively over, that and she’s charismatic and can work so I don’t really mind her being in that position. I’m not going to get into the whole thing about how I believe WWE’s treated Asuka far better than her fans claim, that’s a whole different topic in itself. 100 percent agree and the highlighted bit you could say that about a lot of people claim WWE "misused/mishandled"
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Post by Treklubj on Aug 6, 2023 14:54:36 GMT -5
I like Drew but this was a phenomenal match and he lost to a guy who hasn't lost a singles match on the main roster. It's not like he walks out of the match looking bad. He absolutely did not walk out of that match looking good. Far from it. For a face, his PPV record since he lost to Bobby Lashley at WM37 in Tampa has been absolutely shocking. Dude hasn't won a title match on PPV since crowds came back and this is the second PPV in a row that he has lost to Gunther. Sure, he got pinned by an undefeated Gunther, but for a dude that beat Beastie Boy in the main event of 'mania, his record on PPV since he lost the WWE Championship match to Lashley has been absolutely shite. Do you follow boxing? If so, you'll follow the reference. Ryan Garcia vs. Tank Davis was a megafight. Garcia almost kayoed Tank in the early going, both men showed speed and power and Tank ended the fight with a crippling shot that Garcia couldn't get up from. Neither came out looking bad. Errol Spence vs. Terrence Crawford was also a megafight. Spence looked solid in the opening round but hit the mat for the first time in his career when Crawford landed a power jab in the 2nd round. Crawford spent the next eight rounds destroying Spence with the fight being stopped in the 9th. Experts came away saying Crawford is the best fighter on the planet and some even suggested that Spence, beaten as badly as he was, should consider retirement. I would argue Drew vs. Gunther was much more in line with Tank vs. Garcia than Crawford vs. Spence.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 8,376
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Post by Nosnorb on Aug 6, 2023 15:01:29 GMT -5
He absolutely did not walk out of that match looking good. Far from it. For a face, his PPV record since he lost to Bobby Lashley at WM37 in Tampa has been absolutely shocking. Dude hasn't won a title match on PPV since crowds came back and this is the second PPV in a row that he has lost to Gunther. Sure, he got pinned by an undefeated Gunther, but for a dude that beat Beastie Boy in the main event of 'mania, his record on PPV since he lost the WWE Championship match to Lashley has been absolutely shite. Do you follow boxing? We are talking Professional Wrestling here, and right now, for the past two years, Drew has a record on PPV that for a babyface is wretched. And if he gets a rep for choking when the chips are down, it's going to get harder for the crowd to get invested in his matches, because they know that when it really matters, Drew isn't going to get the job done.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 23,589
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Post by asuka007 on Aug 6, 2023 15:02:55 GMT -5
The main event was a slog to get through and now Jimmy turns on his brother. I'm sure we'll get the promo on Friday about how Jey didn't visit him in the hospital or something. Aside from the fact that no part of the Bloodline saga has been that poorly thought out, they have been foreshadowing this exact scenario for a minute. Jimmy has been hating on Jey behind his back ever since it was made known that Jey was the right hand man and heir apparent to the role of Tribal Cheif. Jimmy was always supposed to be the bigger deal of the two (most likely to succeed, prom king, etc.) but became increasingly jealous when Jey began to surpass him. Jimmy's time in the Bloodline actually ended when Jey threw him out ("You out... And I'm out, too!). All the attention from the tag team match was centered on Jey pinning Roman. Post-tag match, Jimmy gets hospitalized while Jey get a Summerslam main event for the title and mantle of Tribal Cheif. Finally, they've spent the last few weeks explaining that the entire family (including Jimmy and the elders) blames Jey's selfishness for the shattering of the Bloodline and the injuries Jimmy sustained. It was shocking when Jimmy interfered, but it makes sense when you think about the story they've told. I think you’re doing a lot of twisting things to come to that conclusion. At best we’ve had very vague teases. Meanwhile for YEARS it’s been all about the brother bond between these two. How it is unbreakable. It feels like some people are doing mental gymnastics to make this works.
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Post by Treklubj on Aug 6, 2023 15:14:40 GMT -5
Aside from the fact that no part of the Bloodline saga has been that poorly thought out, they have been foreshadowing this exact scenario for a minute. Jimmy has been hating on Jey behind his back ever since it was made known that Jey was the right hand man and heir apparent to the role of Tribal Cheif. Jimmy was always supposed to be the bigger deal of the two (most likely to succeed, prom king, etc.) but became increasingly jealous when Jey began to surpass him. Jimmy's time in the Bloodline actually ended when Jey threw him out ("You out... And I'm out, too!). All the attention from the tag team match was centered on Jey pinning Roman. Post-tag match, Jimmy gets hospitalized while Jey get a Summerslam main event for the title and mantle of Tribal Cheif. Finally, they've spent the last few weeks explaining that the entire family (including Jimmy and the elders) blames Jey's selfishness for the shattering of the Bloodline and the injuries Jimmy sustained. It was shocking when Jimmy interfered, but it makes sense when you think about the story they've told. I think you’re doing a lot of twisting things to come to that conclusion. At best we’ve had very vague teases. Meanwhile for YEARS it’s been all about the brother bond between these two. How it is unbreakable. It feels like some people are doing mental gymnastics to make this works. If I'm twisting or doing mental gymnastics, you should be able to point out what in my post you quoted hasn't been said or shown on TV.
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Post by Treklubj on Aug 6, 2023 15:18:44 GMT -5
We are talking Professional Wrestling here, and right now, for the past two years, Drew has a record on PPV that for a babyface is wretched. And if he gets a rep for choking when the chips are down, it's going to get harder for the crowd to get invested in his matches, because they know that when it really matters, Drew isn't going to get the job done. I edited my previous post too late and explained asking about boxing while you were responding. I apologize if that seemed random. Drew is like, at best, the number 5 or 6 face in the company and he lost to a dude who's undefeated and clearly better than him after putting up a hell of a fight. That's not choking. That losing to someone you're supposed to lose to.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 8,376
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Post by Nosnorb on Aug 6, 2023 15:43:20 GMT -5
We are talking Professional Wrestling here, and right now, for the past two years, Drew has a record on PPV that for a babyface is wretched. And if he gets a rep for choking when the chips are down, it's going to get harder for the crowd to get invested in his matches, because they know that when it really matters, Drew isn't going to get the job done. I edited my previous post too late and explained asking about boxing while you were responding. I apologize if that seemed random. Drew is like, at best, the number 5 or 6 face in the company and he lost to a dude who's undefeated and clearly better than him after putting up a hell of a fight. That's not choking. That losing to someone you're supposed to lose to. Its still failing to get it done when it matters, and its still another loss on PPV for McIntyre. All those losses add up and the next time he steps up to the plate, it's going to be harder to get fans to buy that he isn't going to strike out this time.
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Post by Treklubj on Aug 6, 2023 16:05:45 GMT -5
I edited my previous post too late and explained asking about boxing while you were responding. I apologize if that seemed random. Drew is like, at best, the number 5 or 6 face in the company and he lost to a dude who's undefeated and clearly better than him after putting up a hell of a fight. That's not choking. That losing to someone you're supposed to lose to. Its still failing to get it done when it matters, and its still another loss on PPV for McIntyre. All those losses add up and the next time he steps up to the plate, it's going to be harder to get fans to buy that he isn't going to strike out this time. Agreed. The good thing is that WWE has shown the ability to build and rebuild people over the past few years.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Aug 6, 2023 17:03:21 GMT -5
It's still working for WWE overall, so I can't say they're wrong business-wise to keep dipping in the well; I also doubt they go full WCW on this and botch what needs to be the definitive end of the story and pull a Starrcade '97 or something. But you can't be shocked when at least some fans start seeing how things keep going and eventually get bored with it when you have these 30+ minute main event segments that amount to "only the last few minutes of this will mean anything." I can also see that line of thinking, I mean a three+ year world title reign is straight up unprecedented in this era and certainly post Attitude Era. It does seem like WWE is doing well keeping enough people interested in a 1000 day run but obviously some people aren’t going to have the patience for that, and that’s fine.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Aug 6, 2023 19:43:20 GMT -5
6 out of 10 or slightly above average, IMHO.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 6, 2023 20:11:52 GMT -5
It's still working for WWE overall, so I can't say they're wrong business-wise to keep dipping in the well; I also doubt they go full WCW on this and botch what needs to be the definitive end of the story and pull a Starrcade '97 or something. But you can't be shocked when at least some fans start seeing how things keep going and eventually get bored with it when you have these 30+ minute main event segments that amount to "only the last few minutes of this will mean anything." I can also see that line of thinking, I mean a three+ year world title reign is straight up unprecedented in this era and certainly post Attitude Era. It does seem like WWE is doing well keeping enough people interested in a 1000 day run but obviously some people aren’t going to have the patience for that, and that’s fine. I think what this current run of success WWE is having tells us, at least to some extent, is that there's a sizable number of fans who are most invested in watching people hold onto titles for a long time. I remember kind of equating it to people getting interested in teams like the 90s Chicago Bulls, the 2000s New England Patriots, etc.; there are people who gravitate towards dominant winners, and people who'll even hate watch them, but they're watching, all the same. Not to say they could replicate it with literally any long term champs; you do need people with some crowd connection and talent in those spots. But I can easily imagine a lot of people who kind of follow like "Did Roman/Gunter/whomever retain? They did?! Sweet!" Alternatively, I can imagine some who watch with that whole "WHEN are they gonna lose?!" mentality, but again, they keep watching, so why change? The fear I'd have about that is risking feeding too much of your roster to those long term champs and not really having anyone left standing as a really viable contender once the title eventually changes hands, but whether or not that ends up happening, they're gonna ride the money train in the meantime.
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Post by polarbearpete on Aug 6, 2023 22:16:43 GMT -5
To me, it comes back to the core belief held by a lot of the fandom that WWE hates their fans. I’m not going to debate that point one way or the other, but it often means that story beats that are nominally intended to be taken one way, are then taken another completely different way to fit that narrative. It’s why heels can win regularly enough over popular babyfaces in other promotions while in WWE it gets called “misery booking” (mind you, a term that I created to describe us constantly talking about things we don’t want them to book, as an opposite to “fantasy booking”). I do think the history of WWE seemingly delighting in dragging things out on their audience plays a role, but I think it goes a bit deeper: WWE’s style, where the finish of a match is really the only thing that matters, has kind of trained the audience to tune out most of what comes before it as white noise. The old saying goes “it’s the journey that matters, not the destination”, but the bulk of WWE’s match layouts don’t really place much emphasis on the journey. There’s definitely exceptions; it certainly reads like Cody vs. Brock last night tried to tell an in-ring story, even if people felt the story leading into the match was lacking, and Gunther’s run really feels different from most “WWE formula” matches because it kind of demands you pay attention to the match, itself. But much of the time the matches really do fall into a pretty rote formula, no matter what the narrative or build up the those matches, so it’s kind of conditioned viewers to think “none of this is very important until the ending sequence kicks in”. As such, it makes it harder to get people invested in stories where their favorite loses a big match but did things during the match that has you intrigued about where they go next; instead, the match doesn’t really serve enough of a purpose, so the *only thing* left to be invested in is “ok, so did they win or not?”, because the match itself won’t really shape those characters moving forward. Like, what makes Roman’s defenses interesting? It’s the same match over and over again, all that matters is “who’s gonna interfere THIS time?” It’s really why the in only matches in WWE I’ve felt interested in going out of my way to see over the last five years involved Brock, Gunther, or Samoa Joe; they felt/feel like the only people who get to color outside the lines (and even Joe got screwed on that, I felt) and feel more authentic as characters and different from “usual WWE matches” where match psychology isn’t overly emphasized. This take seems a little dated. I think in-match psychology (especially for PLEs) is usually at a very high level in recent years.
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Post by yokohamacpfc on Aug 7, 2023 1:32:03 GMT -5
6 Was the crowd dead the whole show, or was it just me? I thought they got tired early. The first three matches were the spot fest one with a celebrity, the Brock match with him facing the most over babyface in the company and the battle royal which had a lot of crowd favorites and a very popular winner. After that they were shattered. Maybe they should have put the "I can't believe its not MMA" match at no 2 or 3 to give the crowd a breather. The heat at this time of year is not going to make for noisy crowds as well.
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Post by hashtagdaley/JudasDay on Aug 7, 2023 2:00:48 GMT -5
It was the type of show that will make me take a break from the main roster. The bloodline is draining and beyond that nothing’s really working with me. At least I have NXT! (And even that is a little bit of a struggle rn)
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