|
Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 9, 2023 8:12:06 GMT -5
I'm genuinely asking here, am I missing something? Aside from the fact that, as has been mentioned, the document doesn't accuse either LK or TFS of grooming or abuse, after reading it in full, I'm still confused as to what point the document is making. Most of it seems to have very little to do with LittleKuriboh or TFS; it goes into several people who seem to genuinely be creeps and then says that TFS/LK knew but doesn't elaborate on it, let alone offer any proof. Instead, most of the points being made seem to be speculation, assumptions and appeal to emotion, including a lot of guilt by association.
With that said, I acknowledge that I am not very familiar with behind-the-scenes news of the VA business, so maybe there's some context I'm missing that makes it more damning. If that's the case, I would appreciate if somebody could provide more context, even in a TL;DR version. Also, as of this writing, I haven't read LK or KaiserNeko's responses so I'll have to see if that adds some.
It doesn't help that anything actually related to TFS/LK in the doc seems to come from third-party accounts* and history has taught me that with this sort of accusations, if it's not coming directly from the alleged victims, it shouldn't be taken at its word. I've seen far too many people weaponize grooming/abuse accusations in the name of someone else, only for said person to come out and confirm that the accusations were false (which also means that the third-party forced them into the public eye and bring up things they may not have wanted to) to blindly trust accusations by someone who, by their own admission, hasn't witnessed anything and cannot confirm anything.
*To be precise, the author of the document does mention being sexually abused themselves and I have no reason to doubt that claim, but it doesn't seem to relate to TFS or LK.
|
|
|
Post by Joker on Aug 9, 2023 10:15:50 GMT -5
Mod Note:Edited Title to reflect actual case and accusations:
From "TeamFourStar/LittleKuriboh Accused of Grooming and Abuse" to "TeamFourStar/LittleKuriboh accused of being complicit in grooming attempts"
Shortened to fit post title character limits.
|
|
Toates Madhackrviper
King Koopa
Is owed an Admin life-debt.
This avatar is so far out of date I might as well stick with it forever now.
Posts: 10,737
|
Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Aug 9, 2023 14:12:02 GMT -5
How is the guy who created the sonic Sprite comic I was so special interest into in 8th grade that I had my mom buy a T-Shirt STILL coming up?
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,014
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 9, 2023 21:30:10 GMT -5
People are f***ing gross.
|
|
Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,403
|
Post by Lupin the Third on Aug 9, 2023 22:52:59 GMT -5
People are f***ing gross. Those people can f*** right off the deepest part of the Earth. No f***ing reason for that.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,014
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 9, 2023 23:22:44 GMT -5
Martin's cat passed away today btw, which is a reason he also made that post
I can't imagine going through this kind of drama on top of losing one of your fur family members at the same time, like it's just shitty, and if anything it made the people calling out Martin more pre-emptive with their callout than anything else, just a mess all around.
|
|
|
Post by discoelysium on Aug 10, 2023 5:21:02 GMT -5
I think worst case scenario here is they could've handled it better. But it's 10 years ago, they have no ties to the accused abusers and have clearly reflected on what they could've done better. I don't know what else one can ask for in this scenario
|
|
|
Post by discoelysium on Aug 10, 2023 5:21:59 GMT -5
Also the 'aggressive and abusive' email LK's wife sent to one of the parties is nothing of the short. It's direct, honest and completely fair.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Aug 10, 2023 5:52:26 GMT -5
This is why I never jump the gun on these things.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,014
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 10, 2023 6:35:07 GMT -5
I think worst case scenario here is they could've handled it better. But it's 10 years ago, they have no ties to the accused abusers and have clearly reflected on what they could've done better. I don't know what else one can ask for in this scenario The accusers also did not make themselves look favorable by continuing to try and poke and goad both Kaiser and LK after their responses Like it's fair that they were hurt and it sucks that they were hurt, and the ones actual responsible should never see work in this industry again at the LEAST, but I do agree that why 10 years later? Why now? Why when you KNEW LK was going through shit with his cat? Because he'd been posting about that shit for weeks and there ain't no way they weren't monitoring their accounts and waiting for the exact right moment to drop their document bombshell. This felt like a way to drag them down and try and ruin what they've built up, maybe they saw what happened to SuperMega and tried to duplicate it, but even SuperMega's stuff has kinda evened out and gotten holes poked in what was accused of them, this feels even flimsier at this point Again, not how it should have been handled, not cool that it happened to these people a decade ago, but I have to ask like others have, what did they want out of this that'd be productive? And what do they gain by trying to make it a thing now? Especially when neither LK or Kaiser were the abuser, and cut them out of their lives, eons ago apparently. Why wasn't the document explicitly aimed at the abusers in question? Where the actual anger probably should be mainly directed? This was also an issue with SuperMega's callout, the actual abuser wasn't getting the flack Matt and Ryan ended up getting and that's just wrong to me. It just feels targeted because they have bigger followings and want some sort of justice and it's kind of a mess in execution. Actual horrible people are involved in this, it feels like almost clickbait, to attach these names to what happened.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Aug 10, 2023 6:38:04 GMT -5
Too much of this internet drama stuff seems based around people saying “we saw these picture from a convention”, or “look who hit like on this tweet”, and Jesus, that’s such a terminally-online way to go about discussing real life people, relationships, and complicated matters.
Is there a case to be made that TFS and Martin should’ve said stuff publicly? Maybe, I don’t know, I admit that I’m a bit of an old at this point and the documents with all the mixing of real names and user names I’d never heard of got confusing at points. But it’d be one thing to argue that; this was calling them complicit in some monstrous stuff, and it seems that wasn’t really the case.
There’s too much of a need in some corners to have this drama hashed out in front of people not so that future abuses can be prevented, but so that “permission” can be granted to brigade people and start posting all kinds of nasty shit on social media.
And honestly, a lot of people need perspective on some of this shit; people and groups like the guys here seem like a huge deal, and within a specific niche community they might seem like celebrities, but…they’re really not. They’re not filthy rich or anything. They don’t have a bunch of publicists to handle shit for them. It’s like Lindsay Ellis’s video from awhile back pointing out that, no, she doesn’t have that much money or influence, stop projecting that onto a person who drives a used sedan.
All of that said, good god is it jarring to see the amount of abuse that does happen in a lot of niche interest communities, something we’ve seen with pro wrestling more than enough times. Too much “internet famous” stature going to selfish people’s heads? Separately, there’s also the issue of how often these stories involve people’s mental health issues playing out in front of the world, which is never particularly comfortable. Have to think that niche interests can draw in people who suffer from those, since it can be a welcoming community for people who might’ve had a hard time finding those while growing up, but so often we either see the too common occurrence of unwell people being victimized, or people doing shitty things during stuff like this and trying to chalk it up to “I’m unwell”, which is some ol’ bullshit.
|
|
|
Post by SsnakeBite, the No1 Frenchman on Aug 10, 2023 7:20:15 GMT -5
People are f***ing gross. Ah, I see that the Internet sleuths are on the case again. I think worst case scenario here is they could've handled it better. But it's 10 years ago, they have no ties to the accused abusers and have clearly reflected on what they could've done better. I don't know what else one can ask for in this scenario The accusers also did not make themselves look favorable by continuing to try and poke and goad both Kaiser and LK after their responses Like it's fair that they were hurt and it sucks that they were hurt, and the ones actual responsible should never see work in this industry again at the LEAST, but I do agree that why 10 years later? Why now? Why when you KNEW LK was going through shit with his cat? Because he'd been posting about that shit for weeks and there ain't no way they weren't monitoring their accounts and waiting for the exact right moment to drop their document bombshell. This felt like a way to drag them down and try and ruin what they've built up, maybe they saw what happened to SuperMega and tried to duplicate it, but even SuperMega's stuff has kinda evened out and gotten holes poked in what was accused of them, this feels even flimsier at this point Again, not how it should have been handled, not cool that it happened to these people a decade ago, but I have to ask like others have, what did they want out of this that'd be productive? And what do they gain by trying to make it a thing now? Especially when neither LK or Kaiser were the abuser, and cut them out of their lives, eons ago apparently. Why wasn't the document explicitly aimed at the abusers in question? Where the actual anger probably should be mainly directed? This was also an issue with SuperMega's callout, the actual abuser wasn't getting the flack Matt and Ryan ended up getting and that's just wrong to me. It just feels targeted because they have bigger followings and want some sort of justice and it's kind of a mess in execution. Actual horrible people are involved in this, it feels like almost clickbait, to attach these names to what happened. The document really gave me the vibe that its author has some sort of personal grievance with TFS as a whole and LittleKuriboh especially, and tried to pull this stunt as a way to try and make a private issue into public social warfare and hurt their carreers and reputation. Hell, for all I know, maybe they genuinely believe that TFS/LK helped perverts get away with it, but it still massively stretches to try and somehow connect these events to TFS. Nobody should feel comfortable making this kind of potentially life-ruining acusations when so much of your logic relies on speculation and third-hand accounts. And also, let's not kid ourselves here, if they HAD said anything earlier, even if it were just "We've been advised not to comment on this and don't know enough to do so anyway", people would have still complained. They would have asked why they bother saying anything if they won't comment or accuse them of vague-posting, and would have inevitably started making baseless speculations and treated nonsense rumours and theories as fact.
|
|
|
Post by discoelysium on Aug 10, 2023 7:42:11 GMT -5
Too much of this internet drama stuff seems based around people saying “we saw these picture from a convention”, or “look who hit like on this tweet”, and Jesus, that’s such a terminally-online way to go about discussing real life people, relationships, and complicated matters. Is there a case to be made that TFS and Martin should’ve said stuff publicly? Maybe, I don’t know, I admit that I’m a bit of an old at this point and the documents with all the mixing of real names and user names I’d never heard of got confusing at points. But it’d be one thing to argue that; this was calling them complicit in some monstrous stuff, and it seems that wasn’t really the case. There’s too much of a need in some corners to have this drama hashed out in front of people not so that future abuses can be prevented, but so that “permission” can be granted to brigade people and start posting all kinds of nasty shit on social media. And honestly, a lot of people need perspective on some of this shit; people and groups like the guys here seem like a huge deal, and within a specific niche community they might seem like celebrities, but…they’re really not. They’re not filthy rich or anything. They don’t have a bunch of publicists to handle shit for them. It’s like Lindsay Ellis’s video from awhile back pointing out that, no, she doesn’t have that much money or influence, stop projecting that onto a person who drives a used sedan. All of that said, good god is it jarring to see the amount of abuse that does happen in a lot of niche interest communities, something we’ve seen with pro wrestling more than enough times. Too much “internet famous” stature going to selfish people’s heads? Separately, there’s also the issue of how often these stories involve people’s mental health issues playing out in front of the world, which is never particularly comfortable. Have to think that niche interests can draw in people who suffer from those, since it can be a welcoming community for people who might’ve had a hard time finding those while growing up, but so often we either see the too common occurrence of unwell people being victimized, or people doing shitty things during stuff like this and trying to chalk it up to “I’m unwell”, which is some ol’ bullshit. A big issue in the niche communities is 1: you have people become pseudo celebrities when they're not emotionally or psychologically equipped for it. 2. The communities are closed off for the most part so it's easy for things to get non publicised in a way it would in broader culture. 3. This is not atypical. There will always be fans who develop parasocial relationships with talent and that's incredibly exploitative. But notably for these niche communities there's a lot of young, impressionable fans who already feel an outside from broader culture. That's a hugely dangerous combination of factors.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Aug 10, 2023 11:20:47 GMT -5
Too much of this internet drama stuff seems based around people saying “we saw these picture from a convention”, or “look who hit like on this tweet”, and Jesus, that’s such a terminally-online way to go about discussing real life people, relationships, and complicated matters. Is there a case to be made that TFS and Martin should’ve said stuff publicly? Maybe, I don’t know, I admit that I’m a bit of an old at this point and the documents with all the mixing of real names and user names I’d never heard of got confusing at points. But it’d be one thing to argue that; this was calling them complicit in some monstrous stuff, and it seems that wasn’t really the case. There’s too much of a need in some corners to have this drama hashed out in front of people not so that future abuses can be prevented, but so that “permission” can be granted to brigade people and start posting all kinds of nasty shit on social media. And honestly, a lot of people need perspective on some of this shit; people and groups like the guys here seem like a huge deal, and within a specific niche community they might seem like celebrities, but…they’re really not. They’re not filthy rich or anything. They don’t have a bunch of publicists to handle shit for them. It’s like Lindsay Ellis’s video from awhile back pointing out that, no, she doesn’t have that much money or influence, stop projecting that onto a person who drives a used sedan. All of that said, good god is it jarring to see the amount of abuse that does happen in a lot of niche interest communities, something we’ve seen with pro wrestling more than enough times. Too much “internet famous” stature going to selfish people’s heads? Separately, there’s also the issue of how often these stories involve people’s mental health issues playing out in front of the world, which is never particularly comfortable. Have to think that niche interests can draw in people who suffer from those, since it can be a welcoming community for people who might’ve had a hard time finding those while growing up, but so often we either see the too common occurrence of unwell people being victimized, or people doing shitty things during stuff like this and trying to chalk it up to “I’m unwell”, which is some ol’ bullshit. A big issue in the niche communities is 1: you have people become pseudo celebrities when they're not emotionally or psychologically equipped for it. 2. The communities are closed off for the most part so it's easy for things to get non publicised in a way it would in broader culture. 3. This is not atypical. There will always be fans who develop parasocial relationships with talent and that's incredibly exploitative. But notably for these niche communities there's a lot of young, impressionable fans who already feel an outside from broader culture. That's a hugely dangerous combination of factors. Not hard to imagine the parasocial aspect being worse in niche communities; it tends to involve hobbies where the creators/performers people like so much are much more accessible than, say, a mainstream celebrity or major pro athlete. Combine that with how important their work can be to said younger, more impressionable fans who've maybe had a hard time fitting in before: you get fans who can genuinely say "this person's work helps me through my depression" or other issues, and that just puts them in an even more vulnerable position. Simultaneously, it also amplifies the outrage whenever controversy arises, whether from people who want to defend their favorites or people who want to lash out at them and/or out at people they "never liked, anyway" or what have you.
|
|
Lupin the Third
Patti Mayonnaise
I'm sorry.....I love you. *boot to the head*--3rd most culpable in the jixing of NXT, D'oh!
Join the Dark Order....
Posts: 36,403
|
Post by Lupin the Third on Aug 10, 2023 11:47:04 GMT -5
To find out ShadyVox liked and followed some....very questionable ideals is putting me on LK's side even more.
Especially after all the s*** he started to do to LK.
|
|
|
Post by darbus alan on Aug 10, 2023 14:41:22 GMT -5
Even if they didn't do any crimes themselves, it's the complacency that sucks, and that's where Channel Awesome's downfall also played a huge role There really needs to just be more awareness to this kind of shit, people need to realize it's both not ok to do and even more so not ok to downplay, blow off, or potentially be complacent in whether knowingly or not. It's a rancid look, this is exactly the thing that took SuperMega out like not even a week ago too. I think we might start seeing a groundswell of people coming forward if this is an indication which is also a sad thought as well if it happens. With what Kaiser and Martin have said, I think I need to make a point to reiterate, being complacent can't be the norm for this stuff anymore. Being advised to not talk and maybe also having legal reasons not to is one thing, but I do think that more should be done when these people get caught in these dramas with the people LK and TFS cut out of their lives, whether it's help from others, or making sure internally that people like that can't stay above water in these environments, not EVERYTHING has to be done publicly, but there should be some measures taken to just blacklist these people so they don't keep up patterns and get into places where they can. I'm glad Martin has owned up to this fact and agreed that what he thought was the right thing to do probably wasn't the right thing to do, even if advised. I don't think holding onto a grudge to them, specifically for ten years comes off a bit aggressive, but when you've been hurt and you want someone with a platform to help and they won't, I get why you'd force their hands. Horrific timing on the part of Martin though, dealing with the potential death of your Cat due to cancer and then this in the span of like 2 hours is rough, and I hope he is ok mentally too. There needs to be a better system so this stuff doesn't simmer for a decade and blow up into a mess, like it did today. I agree with this. It's good to see LK and Kaiser finally talk about this stuff and own up that they could've handled it better. And with that many people advising you not to say anything, you tend to listen. I wonder if even a simple "For reasons we can't disclose, we've decided to cut all professional ties with X person and wish them well in their future endeavors" statement would've been fine or if that would've just fueled the internet rumor machine. Because you still don't want to risk creating a missing stair situation either.
ShadyVox (whoever the f*** that is) looks like a shithead in this.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,014
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 10, 2023 18:01:37 GMT -5
With what Kaiser and Martin have said, I think I need to make a point to reiterate, being complacent can't be the norm for this stuff anymore. Being advised to not talk and maybe also having legal reasons not to is one thing, but I do think that more should be done when these people get caught in these dramas with the people LK and TFS cut out of their lives, whether it's help from others, or making sure internally that people like that can't stay above water in these environments, not EVERYTHING has to be done publicly, but there should be some measures taken to just blacklist these people so they don't keep up patterns and get into places where they can. I'm glad Martin has owned up to this fact and agreed that what he thought was the right thing to do probably wasn't the right thing to do, even if advised. I don't think holding onto a grudge to them, specifically for ten years comes off a bit aggressive, but when you've been hurt and you want someone with a platform to help and they won't, I get why you'd force their hands. Horrific timing on the part of Martin though, dealing with the potential death of your Cat due to cancer and then this in the span of like 2 hours is rough, and I hope he is ok mentally too. There needs to be a better system so this stuff doesn't simmer for a decade and blow up into a mess, like it did today. I agree with this. It's good to see LK and Kaiser finally talk about this stuff and own up that they could've handled it better. And with that many people advising you not to say anything, you tend to listen. I wonder if even a simple "For reasons we can't disclose, we've decided to cut all professional ties with X person and wish them well in their future endeavors" statement would've been fine or if that would've just fueled the internet rumor machine. Because you still don't want to risk creating a missing stair situation either.
ShadyVox (whoever the f*** that is) looks like a shithead in this.
He voiced Jaiden in the Yugioh GX abridged series
|
|
|
Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Aug 10, 2023 21:52:43 GMT -5
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,014
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Aug 10, 2023 22:32:02 GMT -5
The more that comes out, the worse the people that started this look imo It really feels like they lied and stretched to even connect this to Kaiser and LK, just so they could.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Aug 11, 2023 6:38:33 GMT -5
This whole thing is starting to remind me of a real life version of "Zack Morris is Trash" but it isn't a joke.
|
|