'Lame Duck' World Title Challengers Need to Go Away

[DichEvans]

Huge fan of Shinsuke, but it never remotely felt like he had a chance of winning against Seth. How WWE creates challengers for world titles so still so formulaic. WWE picks guy randomly, has him win 2-3 matches on TV during build up, loses to champion.

This is more or less why both Big E and Kofi's reigns were not great, as they never truly built up a heel who felt like they could take the title off of them.

Spend 2-3 months building the opponent before the fued. 

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

It requires the kind of patience and discipline that I don't think WWE has, especially in a weekly star vs star TV environment where nobody can afford to set aside the bulk of the show for enhancement matches. At any one time, you'd probably gotta have like three or four guys on the metaphorical stove, getting nicely prepared for their title shot, sure, but all those guys are gonna need credible guys to beat so those wins mean something, and THOSE talents are gonna need guys to beat so they have credibility to give. And you have to rinse and repeat for eight separate title divisions, not just the world title.

And then what happens if the challenger loses and we end up just going "Well, that was a waste of f***ing time, why give them all that build just to lose"?

[tirtefaa]

Dolph Ziggler springs to mind... although I can't remember when his last title opportunity was.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Sept 5, 2023 11:13:50 GMT -5 tirtefaa said:

Dolph Ziggler springs to mind... although I can't remember when his last title opportunity was.

For any belt? Would've been when he went down to NXT and won that belt to try and give Bron Breakker a rub (that I'm not sure actually existed). That was nearly a year and a half ago.

Main roster world title? Against Drew McIntyre at Extreme Rules 2020, smack dab in peak pandemic times.

[Venti]

I would have loved it if it went to Nakamura because(well besides the fact I'm a Nakamura mark) it probably would have been much less expected than Seth retaining.

I'm not saying they should go full 1999 and hot potato the title, but since they already have the long epic reign with Roman and Gunther, the other title could be more free to switch hands a little more often.

[HIM]

The thing about Shinsuke isn't him but more so about that AJ feud. Rollins has a bad back and he's also been plagued by numerous defenses so from a storyline standpoint that will leave him vulnerable for a calculating heel like Shinsuke. That AJ feud however lasted months with numerous losses for him to the point where we believe he cant get it done. Had that feud not happened I believe we'd be thinking Shinsuke might win. I mean the whole reason Seth's back is mentioned is to give a potential L. We don't know who will benefit from it but someone will.

[polarbearpete]

I feel like Nakamura actually does have a chance at winning the title, though. The feud has been well done, with the concentration on the back injury. And if not Nakamura, the feud feels like it is setting Rollins up to lose soon to a Priest cash-in.

[KingPooper]

Sept 5, 2023 12:28:44 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

I feel like Nakamura actually does have a chance at winning the title, though. The feud has been well done, with the concentration on the back injury. And if not Nakamura, the feud feels like it is setting Rollins up to lose soon to a Priest cash-in.

We said all these things about Finn too. No heel has been booked like a creditable threat on raw. They have all jobbed to Cody, Rollins, and Sami / Kevin 100 times. Now add Jey to that list.

[polarbearpete]

Sept 5, 2023 19:28:43 GMT -5 KingPooper said:

Sept 5, 2023 12:28:44 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

I feel like Nakamura actually does have a chance at winning the title, though. The feud has been well done, with the concentration on the back injury. And if not Nakamura, the feud feels like it is setting Rollins up to lose soon to a Priest cash-in.

We said all these things about Finn too. No heel has been booked like a creditable threat on raw. They have all jobbed to Cody, Rollins, and Sami / Kevin 100 times. Now add Jey to that list.

But if the majority of viewers do feel like there’s a chance for the challenger to win, then I think they’re doing their job whether the face ends up winning or not.

[The Gallus Mark]

Super hard disagree.

I don’t want reigns like Roman’s where they only defend every few months because of a lack of serious contenders.

I like the fact that Seth is defending his title.

[DichEvans]

Sept 5, 2023 20:40:39 GMT -5 The Gallus Mark said:

Super hard disagree.

I don’t want reigns like Roman’s where they only defend every few months because of a lack of serious contenders.

I like the fact that Seth is defending his title.

He can still defend his title often. I just don't want the challengers stuck in 50/50 booking hell 3 weeks before they face the champion

[yokohamacpfc]

Kane, Christian, Samoa Joe... these guys and more were put into squillions of title programs you just knew that had no chance of a title change but they made it work. Strowman is the current Raw guy who could probably pull it off, maybe Ciampa while waiting for Braun to recover.

[Mozenrath]

I think it's less on Nakamura and more that it's still not really clear what Seth's title belt is really "worth", exactly, and that's really going to require someone else to win the thing.

I think the closest analogue to it I can think of is WCW's International World Heavyweight Title, which occupies sort of an odd place in history. It was absolutely a world title, but it existed to both smooth the transition of WCW leaving the NWA and to facilitate NJPW and WCW's partnership, having Hiroshi Hase briefly have it.

But, a title belt is a prop at the best of times, and it's difficult to tell what the story is until it's been the domain of more than just one holder. It's hard to say someone won't win it if we don't really know yet what kind of alumni it will have before it probably inevitably gets unified with one or both other main roster world title belts.

[mcstoklasa]

Sept 6, 2023 2:06:17 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

I think it's less on Nakamura and more that it's still not really clear what Seth's title belt is really "worth", exactly, and that's really going to require someone else to win the thing.

I think the closest analogue to it I can think of is WCW's International World Heavyweight Title, which occupies sort of an odd place in history. It was absolutely a world title, but it existed to both smooth the transition of WCW leaving the NWA and to facilitate NJPW and WCW's partnership, having Hiroshi Hase briefly have it.

But, a title belt is a prop at the best of times, and it's difficult to tell what the story is until it's been the domain of more than just one holder. It's hard to say someone won't win it if we don't really know yet what kind of alumni it will have before it probably inevitably gets unified with one or both other main roster world title belts.

This. I know it's fake but I can't get past the whole Roman is the actual champion and Seth is the paper champion

[4real]

I’m able to get past a lame duck challenger as long as the matches are good and the feud is built well. It’s difficult to keep everybody looking strong but they definitely could have done a better job with Nakamura in the last 5 years.

[HMARK Center]

I think challengers you know are going to lose can still work so long as they accomplish something in the process, whether for themselves or for the story of the champion's title reign. If Nakamura challenging but falling short leads to some kind of evolution of his character, that's at least some kind of purpose behind the booking; if by fighting him Seth reveals something about himself, whether a newfound strength or a lingering weakness the next opponent might take advantage of (Shinsuke focusing on his back, in this case), that's a purpose, too.

The issue is usually when someone who doesn't have a prayer is booked to challenge, loses, and then by the next few weeks it feels like the challenge might as well have never happened in the first place.

[Legion]

Sept 5, 2023 11:40:17 GMT -5 Venti said:

I would have loved it if it went to Nakamura because(well besides the fact I'm a Nakamura mark) it probably would have been much less expected than Seth retaining.

I'm not saying they should go full 1999 and hot potato the title, but since they already have the long epic reign with Roman and Gunther, the other title could be more free to switch hands a little more often.

I am.

Using the belt as a prop in that way got them a bunch of pretty over main eventers all at once. They were elevated by the title, rather than already being at stage where they dont need a title.

It didn't devalue anything, it gave us a hot top card and a sense of excitement.

It shouldnt be something done forever, but right now, given length of other title reigns, a year of hot potatoing would be a breath of fresh air.