Bully Ray on Seth Rollins lack of selling at Fastlane

[Deleted]

I put this here because he specifically singles out Seth.

“These are the things that annoy me. You killed the credibility of the match, and the believability of the [back] injury. You killed everything Shinsuke Nakamura did to you — bumps off of ladders, going through tables, falcon arrows through tables … everything … and not even a limp? Not even a grabbing of the shoulder? C’mon! We all know the WWE and Seth Rollins are smarter than that.”

The wrestling veteran further expressed his frustration with the lack of selling in the wrestling industry. He explained that he is tired of this behaviour:

“I’m sick and tired of the lack of selling in this industry. Whether it’s selling in the ring in the moment, or selling afterwards. It is just uncalled for. This is not ‘old man screaming at the clouds’ — this is what’s right.”

I am no fan of Bully and while it is funny coming from a guy who was pretty notorious for no selling himsef , he also but he is not wrong.

It is something that isn't some recent issue of course but it just seems to have gotten progressively worse over time.

[Error]

Doesn't WWE have a role that winning babyfaces don't sell?

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

I mean Seth is put between a rock and a hard place where he's expected to work a big time main event 4+ star match within the WWE framework while in storyline having the most broken back in the world.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2023 14:10:15 GMT -5 Error said:

Doesn't WWE have a role that winning babyfaces don't sell?

Bianca must have written the last few chapters of that new iteration of that role.

[A Little Doo Doo]

This is why I love watching Ilja matches.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2023 14:23:16 GMT -5 A Little Doo Doo said:

This is why I love watching Ilja matches.

And is why Gunther matches are always great.

Same with IYO (her selling that arm after the 1 on 1 with Asuka was a small but very integral since Asuka put in the asuka lock like seven times)

[Lizuka #BLM]

Bully Ray only tolerates the most realistic of spots.

[asuka007]

The bigger issue in this case is that the whole story was how Seth’s back is practically broken. That he’s half-crippled.

But the match layout, and him coming out on Raw this week as well, didn’t really fit that story.

[HIM]

According to PWI it was produced by Shane Helms and Chris Park so yeah. For me I was more upset at the fact that he was talking shit on Raw and apparently his back will somehow be healed in 3 weeks for Crown Jewel. If his back is really that damaged from a storyline perspective 3 weeks ain't gonna be it. Not after all that's happened to him.

It's like yeah I get it, it's wrestling but damn put Seth out some months if it's that serious.

[TOK Is the Target Demo]

I hate when this gets pinged on talent because it's been made clear constantly that faces no-selling after/outside of matches is a Vince call.

[J is Justice]

Seth is a bitch.

[darbus alan]

Yeah, I don't think it's fair to blame this on Seth, but the producers of the match (likely at the direction of their higher-ups including Triple H and/or Vince). It's not like Seth is going into business for himself by no-selling. That's what the match called for.

[Feargus McReddit]

Oct 13, 2023 15:26:16 GMT -5 TOK Is the Target Demo said:

I hate when this gets pinged on talent because it's been made clear constantly that faces no-selling after/outside of matches is a Vince call.

Exactly, especially people who were in the company when that stuff was mandated (Bully Ray was in the company when the Roman Reigns pushes were starting to ramp up more) who should have more awareness of that stuff.

[clc]

I think if people are going to no-sell they need to use a Hulk-up animation to sell the no-sell.

[HMARK Center]

The larger topic of selling in the modern industry is a complex one for me; on the one hand I get it, the pace and moves in matches today are very different from where the industry was not even all that long ago. On the other, I think there's plenty of good selling out there, it just doesn't always look like the sort of over the top cartoonish-ness of some previous generations.

Basically, whenever someone bemoans the lack of selling "these days" (since it comes up every new generation), I kind of need to know what exactly they mean when they say "selling". Some say it sucks when there's no-selling because it seems "unrealistic", but the irony is that most traditional wrestling selling is way beyond the realm of realistic; having your leg worked over a bit doesn't automatically result in someone having a pronounced limp like their knee had just been broken, it doesn't mean they suddenly can't execute any moves that require the leg, etc. There are ways to make that work while still selling that you might be sore (e.g. being slow to follow up on a move or pin attempt, etc.)

But then there's the kind of selling I'm sure Bully's talking about here: when the story calls for it, you need to get over with the crowd that either an injury just cost you a match or that you were tough enough to overcome it. Nakamura should look like a killer win or lose: Seth losing means Shinsuke took advantage of his back and won, but Seth winning should be by a hair and show that Nakamura still worked him over like crazy. Instead, now he looks like a loser because he singled out Seth's weakness, wailed on it, but apparently it had no effect on Seth whatsoever.

I guess I mean that the whole "sell more!" thing to me kind of ignores that not every bit of wrestling psychology needs to look like a match from the 80s, but I get wanting it used for story impact and, in the bigger picture, if you want the talent to sell better so that you can "do more with less" with regards to what moves are used. It's just a complex matter that I wish people who bring it up would specify a bit on.

[Feargus McReddit]

Oct 13, 2023 14:30:52 GMT -5 @sigmax said:

Oct 13, 2023 14:23:16 GMT -5 A Little Doo Doo said:

This is why I love watching Ilja matches.

And is why Gunther matches are always great.

Same with IYO (her selling that arm after the 1 on 1 with Asuka was a small but very integral since Asuka put in the asuka lock like seven times)

So seeing these made me fully realize a point that others spoke about earlier and, really, I think it's good to bring up again in a different way.

Ilja, Gunther, IYO etc are allowed to be sellers or put people over that way because they're not the people on the tippy top of the card, the ones that PLEs and Network/Peacock subscriptions are being sold off; Seth is.

What I mean is that there isn't that pressure to keep the main event standard across those matches because they aren't the things that they are relying on to be the faces of the company. Seth, however, has to not only be the guy whilst the actual champion (and I say that not against him but the situation he's been thrown into) Roman Reigns is taking constant breaks but also has to be the guy that has to follow a framework set by Cena, Austin, Hogan etc where people are looking at Seth as the babyface hero so the audience expect certain things. So yeah, of course they're not going to allow him to have the story about his back be enhanced by either losing or winning by the skin of his teeth because WWE main event babyfaces are rarely allowed to do that. For every Cena at Summerslam 2014, there's Cena at Summerslam 2013 and dozens and dozens of examples.

Which is why I can't blame Seth as much as I blame the people around him who are having him do that sort of match because that's how WWE's worked for the longest time.

[UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm]

bully is one of my least favorite people in wrestling, it isn't seth's fault at all but that match did kinda piss me off ngl.

[Mozenrath]

Oct 13, 2023 15:52:11 GMT -5 clc said:

I think if people are going to no-sell they need to use a Hulk-up animation to sell the no-sell.

Honestly, yeah, have some pageantry, act superhuman if you're going to act superhuman.

[tenshi]

So Bubba just wanted Seth to get his back blown harder?

[Final Countdown Jones]

Oct 13, 2023 15:47:12 GMT -5 Feargus McReddit said:

Oct 13, 2023 15:26:16 GMT -5 TOK Is the Target Demo said:

I hate when this gets pinged on talent because it's been made clear constantly that faces no-selling after/outside of matches is a Vince call.

Exactly, especially people who were in the company when that stuff was mandated (Bully Ray was in the company when the Roman Reigns pushes were starting to ramp up more) who should have more awareness of that stuff.

Oh Bully Ray absolutely knows. He knows full well what's being done and where it comes from, and who pulls the trigger on those decisions. But he wants to get podcast clicks and wants to make the easy call comments, so even though he knows the way it works, just like every grumpass old-timer knows how it works, that gets thrown out the window and ignored for the sake of grilling some guy they know isn't the one responsible for clicks. It's all bullshit.