Did Vince McMahon Hate The WWF Pre 1984?

[LiamMcDuggle]

The WWE has existed in some form for nearly 100 years now. VKM's grandfather ran wrestling and boxing shows in NY going back to the 1920's. 

But WWE has only uploaded limited matches from that period. I was going through old school interviews, and wrestlers say the WWE still has all that old footage archived, but they just choose not to share.

Even in the DVD documentary era, they went out of their way to create docs about WCCW and AWA (which were less popular than the WWWF and in the same era), but nothing about Bruno or Backlund. For all intents and purposes, the WWE very much seems to give the impression the company actually started when Hogan beat Sheik.


I mean, maybe they just don't think that era of wrestling is very marketable to younger audiences, but it just seems weird to have more AWA, NWA and WCCW content available on demand from the 70's than their own product

[CeilingFan]

1983 was a bad year for WWF (except for Muraco vs Snuka). I am sure Vince has no nostalgia for that period.

[BorneAgain]

The core problem is that pre-1984 clashed with Vince's vision of wrestling and that its success and overall existence as a popular territory somewhat ruins his narrative. His entire story was that he took a small regional company doing shows in smoky halls and turned into a worldwide entertainment juggernaut. That the WW(W)F was one of the biggest territories in the country and in the most advantageous media market kind of harpoons the idea that Vince's vision and grit were the things that really mattered the most.

It's a silly exercise given that McMahon's accomplishments are significant even with the knowledge that Bruno and various others sold out Shea Stadium and were notable figures in one of the biggest cities in the world. But the Vince story is one that requires the promotion that his father had to be lesser than it actually was to make his own achievements seem bigger. It's the historical equivalent of exaggerating Andre's height when he was already a huge giant.

[chrom]

Feb 11, 2024 15:34:24 GMT -5 BorneAgain said:

The core problem is that pre-1984 clashed with Vince's vision of wrestling and that its success and overall existence as a popular territory somewhat ruins his narrative. His entire story was that he took a small regional company doing shows in smoky halls and turned into a worldwide entertainment juggernaut. That the WW(W)F was one of the biggest territories in the country and in the most advantageous media market kind of harpoons the idea that Vince's vision and grit were the things that really mattered the most.

It's a silly exercise given that McMahon's accomplishments are significant even with the knowledge that Bruno and various others sold out Shea Stadium and were notable figures in one of the biggest cities in the world. But the Vince story is one that requires the promotion that his father had to be lesser than it actually was to make his own achievements seem bigger. It's the historical equivalent of exaggerating Andre's height when he was already a huge giant.

Kinda like how Austin is always said to have just been a ham n egger in WCW

[thecrusherwi]

I think part of it is that not a lot happened back then on WWF TV. There were no PPVs that the shows were building towards. They didn’t do a lot of angles compared to some of the other territories. Even the 1984 and 1985 WWF is a pretty tedious watch when watching the squash shows week by week. The MSG house shows often have lots of filler too even though they’re the showcase events of the era. I think the matches and moments that they figured people wanted to see found their way on many Coliseum Videos and compilations over the years. And several of the pre-1984 MSG house shows were on the old WWE 24/7 service. I assume not many people watched them.

[This Player Hating Mothman]

Feb 11, 2024 15:34:24 GMT -5 BorneAgain said:

The core problem is that pre-1984 clashed with Vince's vision of wrestling and that its success and overall existence as a popular territory somewhat ruins his narrative. His entire story was that he took a small regional company doing shows in smoky halls and turned into a worldwide entertainment juggernaut. That the WW(W)F was one of the biggest territories in the country and in the most advantageous media market kind of harpoons the idea that Vince's vision and grit were the things that really mattered the most.

It's a silly exercise given that McMahon's accomplishments are significant even with the knowledge that Bruno and various others sold out Shea Stadium and were notable figures in one of the biggest cities in the world. But the Vince story is one that requires the promotion that his father had to be lesser than it actually was to make his own achievements seem bigger. It's the historical equivalent of exaggerating Andre's height when he was already a huge giant.

This also accounts for why WWE is willing to produce documentaries about other territories; they're the ones he beat. He won against Crockett and Verne and Fritz and Turner, so he's willing to build up their myths because it makes what he did seem all the more grand. It's why WWE is so willing to talk about Black Saturday, but not quite as often about how Vince sold the time slot back to Crockett a few years later because it was such a failure. Vince has built a story for himself, and the beasts he conquered have more of a place in that story than his father and grandfather's work, because he can claim victories himself in the former, while the latter reveal that he was always set up to win by avoiding the failures and mistakes of those who he 'defeated'.

[tafkaga]

Feb 11, 2024 17:26:17 GMT -5 thecrusherwi said:

I think part of it is that not a lot happened back then on WWF TV. There were no PPVs that the shows were building towards. They didn’t do a lot of angles compared to some of the other territories. Even the 1984 and 1985 WWF is a pretty tedious watch when watching the squash shows week by week. The MSG house shows often have lots of filler too even though they’re the showcase events of the era. I think the matches and moments that they figured people wanted to see found their way on many Coliseum Videos and compilations over the years. And several of the pre-1984 MSG house shows were on the old WWE 24/7 service. I assume not many people watched them.

I think it's this, mostly. 

WWF prior to Rock & Wrestling is like watching paint dry.  The matches are slow and plodding.  There's not a ton going on in way of angles, and there's no great "rise & fall" story to make a good doc.  

Bruno also wanted nothing to do with Vince for the longest time, so that alone would have made any WWWF projects a little awkward.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

This is mostly down to not a whole of footage of pre-80s wrestling actually existing between limited efforts to keep master tapes around and degradation of what has actually survived, and a very small and niche demand for what actually does exist, as opposed to any supposed dislike of the time period from McMahon and other executives in the company.

[tirtefaa]

Feb 11, 2024 17:26:17 GMT -5 thecrusherwi said:

I think part of it is that not a lot happened back then on WWF TV. There were no PPVs that the shows were building towards. They didn’t do a lot of angles compared to some of the other territories. Even the 1984 and 1985 WWF is a pretty tedious watch when watching the squash shows week by week. The MSG house shows often have lots of filler too even though they’re the showcase events of the era. I think the matches and moments that they figured people wanted to see found their way on many Coliseum Videos and compilations over the years. And several of the pre-1984 MSG house shows were on the old WWE 24/7 service. I assume not many people watched them.

Yeah, not going to lie...but it's really hard to go back and watch a lot of those early to mid 80's matches. Many of them are just full of sluggish action, no snap to the moves most of the time, and a bunch of guys who didn't look the part, and most of those early standouts were guys like Steamboat in '85, Tito Santana, and occasionally Hogan. WWF really came into it's own when they would add guys like Savage, DiBiase, The Hart Foundation and the Bulldogs. When I look at what the NWA was presenting in the early 80's, it was leagues better by comparison.

[Ryushinku]

Great replies, because I think actually all this is true.

Vince absolutely looked to burnish his reputation in building up the WWE. History is written by the winners. The smoky bingo halls thing was always propaganda and the Fed was a big strong success pre-Hulk.

At the same time, the 60s/70s/pre-Hulkamania era is much more of a brawling and shoot wrestling style, with an often slower paced, aimless and padded tv product. Then add on the times when there's inferior or even missing match footage.

It's a bit like how a bunch of people ignore some excellent black and white films of the past, simply because it's in black and white and/or an older style.

So I think it's less hate, more that he loved his own stuff a lot more.

I would like them to promote their earlier content more, though. It's their back catalogue, may as well use it.

[Mozenrath]

It was a different era. I don't think most of it would really be terribly usable, though some stuff would be of interest, maybe, like certain Andre matches, Bruno, Hogan, or other guys who have enduring name value.

Is Vince arrogant? Absolutely, but it's also true that the WWF had not been foreward-thinking about their tape library, since this was an era where VHS tapes were expensive, and it wasn't really a market they had considered in the way that would later be a big source of revenue, much less other uses of their footage, so a lot of what remains has various issue.

[chrom]

Feb 12, 2024 0:09:46 GMT -5 tirtefaa said:

Feb 11, 2024 17:26:17 GMT -5 thecrusherwi said:

I think part of it is that not a lot happened back then on WWF TV. There were no PPVs that the shows were building towards. They didn’t do a lot of angles compared to some of the other territories. Even the 1984 and 1985 WWF is a pretty tedious watch when watching the squash shows week by week. The MSG house shows often have lots of filler too even though they’re the showcase events of the era. I think the matches and moments that they figured people wanted to see found their way on many Coliseum Videos and compilations over the years. And several of the pre-1984 MSG house shows were on the old WWE 24/7 service. I assume not many people watched them.

Yeah, not going to lie...but it's really hard to go back and watch a lot of those early to mid 80's matches. Many of them are just full of sluggish action, no snap to the moves most of the time, and a bunch of guys who didn't look the part, and most of those early standouts were guys like Steamboat in '85, Tito Santana, and occasionally Hogan. WWF really came into it's own when they would add guys like Savage, DiBiase, The Hart Foundation and the Bulldogs. When I look at what the NWA was presenting in the early 80's, it was leagues better by comparison.

Yeah, watching Midsouth, Crockett and World Class, it's all much more exciting to watch than what WWF had at the time. They just had the advantage of being more available to people

[Urn Anderson]

I also kind of wonder how much of them pulling more material from other promotions has to do with those names having more staying power than the WWF roster at the time. Someone who wasn't around in that era would probably be much more likely to watch a match with Ric Flair than Ivan Putski.

[EvenBaldobombHasAJob]

Feb 11, 2024 18:07:57 GMT -5 This Player Hating Mothman said:

Feb 11, 2024 15:34:24 GMT -5 BorneAgain said:

The core problem is that pre-1984 clashed with Vince's vision of wrestling and that its success and overall existence as a popular territory somewhat ruins his narrative. His entire story was that he took a small regional company doing shows in smoky halls and turned into a worldwide entertainment juggernaut. That the WW(W)F was one of the biggest territories in the country and in the most advantageous media market kind of harpoons the idea that Vince's vision and grit were the things that really mattered the most.

It's a silly exercise given that McMahon's accomplishments are significant even with the knowledge that Bruno and various others sold out Shea Stadium and were notable figures in one of the biggest cities in the world. But the Vince story is one that requires the promotion that his father had to be lesser than it actually was to make his own achievements seem bigger. It's the historical equivalent of exaggerating Andre's height when he was already a huge giant.

This also accounts for why WWE is willing to produce documentaries about other territories; they're the ones he beat. He won against Crockett and Verne and Fritz and Turner, so he's willing to build up their myths because it makes what he did seem all the more grand. It's why WWE is so willing to talk about Black Saturday, but not quite as often about how Vince sold the time slot back to Crockett a few years later because it was such a failure. Vince has built a story for himself, and the beasts he conquered have more of a place in that story than his father and grandfather's work, because he can claim victories himself in the former, while the latter reveal that he was always set up to win by avoiding the failures and mistakes of those who he 'defeated'.

it also can't be overlooked that stories about major companies going bankrupt because of the mistakes they made always make for an interesting story. "business was good for WWFin the 1970s" isnt as interesting a story as "here's how Verne/Fritz/Eric Bischoff/Paul Heyman etc. had a big deal company they fumbled the bag with".

[Milkman Norm]

There are limited matches from all promotions in the WWE library that have significant content from pre-1980 uploaded probably because the tapes were wiped and recycled. I think there is a fair amount of content, from the MSG shows to Championship Wrestling from 80-81. Plus remember, VKM took control in 82, 84 was just when he got his talent into the roles he wanted them in.

[OGBoardPoster2005]

Its hard to say, I think the other promotions can bring in those fans as not all fans of other promotions translated to the WWF/WWE. Whereas the WWWF audience watched WWF Championship Wrestling evolve from just a territorial wrestling show in 1971 to showcasing matches nationwide in 1986 with more shows arising. Bruno's first reign had ended a month prior when it began and Pedro Morales had just won the belt. By the time it ended in 1986, Pedro is in the midcard with Hulk Hogan midway through his first reign.

To put in perspective, Pedro wrestled Ivan Koloff in 1971 when it debuted and Bret Hart in 1986 when it ended. So that audience grew into WWF fans or dropped off.

A lot of fans of territories/promotions stopped watching when they died. That content helps that viewer get interest of some kind.

I liked watching the WWWF over the Summer. Made for a great late night watch.