KME
Team Rocket
Posts: 776
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Post by KME on Feb 15, 2024 12:23:30 GMT -5
At a certain point, you gotta just start chewing folks out, lmaooo. It is RAMPAGE . A SHOW WATCHED BY THRRE TUMBLEWEEDS. WHY ON EARTH IS “SSP” EVEN ENTERING YOUR MIND IN SUCH A LOW STAKES SCENARIO. WHERE ARE THE AGENTS!?!?!? Best thing that could happen to this roster would be to bring in a Randy Orton type who can explain that yes, it really is ok to keep shit simple when you know got much bigger money shows ahead. I can't think of many things AEW needs less than a Randy Orton type really. You start booking Randy Orton style matches for a fanbase full of people that were jaded because of a WWE roster that all wrestled a bit like Randy Orton and it'll be a show watched by 1 tumbleweed and will be taken off the air. Anyone can tell the guys "hey, take it easy with the high risk stuff" but the horse has already bolted there, a lot of guys work a hugely risky style and botches will happen now and again.
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dbsot
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 595
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Post by dbsot on Feb 15, 2024 12:50:26 GMT -5
At a certain point, you gotta just start chewing folks out, lmaooo. It is RAMPAGE . A SHOW WATCHED BY THRRE TUMBLEWEEDS. WHY ON EARTH IS “SSP” EVEN ENTERING YOUR MIND IN SUCH A LOW STAKES SCENARIO. WHERE ARE THE AGENTS!?!?!? Best thing that could happen to this roster would be to bring in a Randy Orton type who can explain that yes, it really is ok to keep shit simple when you know got much bigger money shows ahead. I can't think of many things AEW needs less than a Randy Orton type really. You start booking Randy Orton style matches for a fanbase full of people that were jaded because of a WWE roster that all wrestled a bit like Randy Orton and it'll be a show watched by 1 tumbleweed and will be taken off the air. Anyone can tell the guys "hey, take it easy with the high risk stuff" but the horse has already bolted there, a lot of guys work a huge risk style and botches will happen now and again. AEW had an Orton style worker with Shawn Spears and I can't remember a single good match of his. Even guys like Cody and Dustin had to speed up their style to fit the audience.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Feb 15, 2024 14:01:32 GMT -5
I think the only fair critique would be maybe they should have just called the whole thing off instead of even just going right to a finish if Jeff was out on his feet. Probably better off either way. But yeah, it doesn't look like it's on Sammy.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 14:13:38 GMT -5
Maybe it's because the move has been desensitized to like the last 20 years of a wrestling generation but I do not see a Shooting Star Press as some big time risk taking big money move that people should be saving anymore
It's some wrestlers straight up finisher and Guevara has used it since his inception in the company, he also uses the 450 and 630. He has not injured people with these moves before and over-rotations or mistiming can happen
AEW injuries are often insanely conflated online and for the life of me I don't really understand why. Injuries simply happen. We see them happen in real time in WWE too, and no one blames wrestlers, calls the other wrestler unsafe, or deems the company bush league quite like when it happens any time there's a freak accident in AEW, almost like idk certain people online in certain shitty circles are waiting for it to jump on the doomposting pearl clutching bandwagons (Spoiler: They are)
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Feb 15, 2024 14:16:57 GMT -5
I understand the concern with Sammy but he slightly off with his rotation on a move he has hit a ton of times before. I also imagine Jeff getting the knees up may have made Sammy try to brace more for the hit earlier and led him to adjust his trajectory. Shit happens. Vikingo hasn't had a history to my knowledge of injuring people but has certainly come a lot closer than Sammy on some of his moves. Not to say he's unsafe but more to the point that some of this is just random chance.
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jm
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,082
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Post by jm on Feb 15, 2024 15:03:12 GMT -5
At a certain point, you gotta just start chewing folks out, lmaooo. It is RAMPAGE . A SHOW WATCHED BY THRRE TUMBLEWEEDS. WHY ON EARTH IS “SSP” EVEN ENTERING YOUR MIND IN SUCH A LOW STAKES SCENARIO. WHERE ARE THE AGENTS!?!?!? Best thing that could happen to this roster would be to bring in a Randy Orton type who can explain that yes, it really is ok to keep shit simple when you know got much bigger money shows ahead. So in other words, matches on Rampage should consist of rolling on the floor for five minutes and involve no maneuvers whatsoever cause "it's watched by three tumbleweeds". Give me a break.
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Post by Denny Zen on Feb 15, 2024 15:17:26 GMT -5
At a certain point, you gotta just start chewing folks out, lmaooo. It is RAMPAGE . A SHOW WATCHED BY THRRE TUMBLEWEEDS. WHY ON EARTH IS “SSP” EVEN ENTERING YOUR MIND IN SUCH A LOW STAKES SCENARIO. WHERE ARE THE AGENTS!?!?!? Best thing that could happen to this roster would be to bring in a Randy Orton type who can explain that yes, it really is ok to keep shit simple when you know got much bigger money shows ahead. So in other words, matches on Rampage should consist of rolling in the floor for five minutes and involve no maneuvers whatsoever cause "it's watched by three tumbleweeds". Give me a break. Anything to sneak in the backhanded "no one watches AEW" jab...
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 15:32:30 GMT -5
So in other words, matches on Rampage should consist of rolling in the floor for five minutes and involve no maneuvers whatsoever cause "it's watched by three tumbleweeds". Give me a break. Anything to sneak in the backhanded "no one watches AEW" jab... Really sick of how people shit on Rampage and the only reason they do is basically "Low ratings number lol" It's a consistently great show and has been for months now featuring matches and talent of very high quality that also helps moves storylines along and bridge to Collision most weeks, giving it a lot more direction and purpose as the second AEW show of the week. The whole "We Rammers are eating good" thing isn't a meme, it's for the people who actually understand the show is fun, and endearing with actual content in a fun hour of wrestling. Tired of it being the same stupid joke and that anything that happens on there either didn't matter because "didn't see it" or shouldn't matter because it's "On Rampage", it's such a shitty copout excuse to further negative product narratives when the product is literally just existing and trying to give you good content. Worst part about this Jeff Hardy injury and the "UNSAFE SLOPPY WORKING ENVIRONMENT" is Jeff and Darby just had a Rampage match LAST MONTH and they did WAY CRAZIER SHIT than Jeff and Sammy did... nothing happened, they were both fine, and it was a good match. One errant slip up? This is the most people pay attention to Rampage in ages and it's to shit on the product, the wrestlers, the company, etc. You wanna talk about disheartening and alienating energy as a wrestling fan? That is it, it's really toxic imo.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Feb 15, 2024 15:50:19 GMT -5
Maybe it's because the move has been desensitized to like the last 20 years of a wrestling generation but I do not see a Shooting Star Press as some big time risk taking big money move that people should be saving anymore It's some wrestlers straight up finisher and Guevara has used it since his inception in the company, he also uses the 450 and 630. He has not injured people with these moves before and over-rotations or mistiming can happen AEW injuries are often insanely conflated online and for the life of me I don't really understand why. Injuries simply happen. We see them happen in real time in WWE too, and no one blames wrestlers, calls the other wrestler unsafe, or deems the company bush league quite like when it happens any time there's a freak accident in AEW, almost like idk certain people online in certain shitty circles are waiting for it to jump on the doomposting pearl clutching bandwagons (Spoiler: They are) Yes, yes they do. You'd think after the last couple of weeks we'd have given up with the 'WWE is the golden child who never gets criticised compared to AEW' persecution complex.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 15:55:20 GMT -5
Maybe it's because the move has been desensitized to like the last 20 years of a wrestling generation but I do not see a Shooting Star Press as some big time risk taking big money move that people should be saving anymore It's some wrestlers straight up finisher and Guevara has used it since his inception in the company, he also uses the 450 and 630. He has not injured people with these moves before and over-rotations or mistiming can happen AEW injuries are often insanely conflated online and for the life of me I don't really understand why. Injuries simply happen. We see them happen in real time in WWE too, and no one blames wrestlers, calls the other wrestler unsafe, or deems the company bush league quite like when it happens any time there's a freak accident in AEW, almost like idk certain people online in certain shitty circles are waiting for it to jump on the doomposting pearl clutching bandwagons (Spoiler: They are) Yes, yes they do. You'd think after the last couple of weeks we'd have given up with the 'WWE is the golden child who never gets criticised compared to AEW' persecution complex. Since you stopped bolding the entire statement/sentence halfway where I was making that point, I will reiterate, AEW when it comes to any time an injury happens gets weirdly persecuted harder than any company, not just WWE. Suddenly they are unsafe, sloppy, bush league where they can't be trusted and their style is way worse and more unsafe than any other company in the world There's nothing to "give up", that is literally how people treat these incidents with AEW and very specifically AEW and the online reaction to this only shows that further.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Feb 15, 2024 16:00:50 GMT -5
At a certain point, you gotta just start chewing folks out, lmaooo. It is RAMPAGE . A SHOW WATCHED BY THRRE TUMBLEWEEDS. WHY ON EARTH IS “SSP” EVEN ENTERING YOUR MIND IN SUCH A LOW STAKES SCENARIO. WHERE ARE THE AGENTS!?!?!? Best thing that could happen to this roster would be to bring in a Randy Orton type who can explain that yes, it really is ok to keep shit simple when you know got much bigger money shows ahead. The wrestlers get paid the same annual salary regardless of the show and the SSP is an every match move for a lot of wrestlers and has been for two decades now. This just seems bizarre as a mindset given I don't think anyone ever says this about say, lariats, which can also mess people up. I think we can be pretty transparent that a SSP carries more risk than a Lariat tho? ...Right? I'm not trying to be funny, the SSP, by design, is a move that even if you nail that shit 99.99%, that .01% where it doesn't go well? Pretty much ALWAYS catastrophic and literally nothing but the luck of fools that saves folks from serious injury At a certain point, you gotta just start chewing folks out, lmaooo. It is RAMPAGE . A SHOW WATCHED BY THRRE TUMBLEWEEDS. WHY ON EARTH IS “SSP” EVEN ENTERING YOUR MIND IN SUCH A LOW STAKES SCENARIO. WHERE ARE THE AGENTS!?!?!? Best thing that could happen to this roster would be to bring in a Randy Orton type who can explain that yes, it really is ok to keep shit simple when you know got much bigger money shows ahead. Wrestling’s “power creep” with regard to moves that used to be used exclusively as finishers and on big shows becoming commonplace is an entirely different discussion, but the SSP is a pretty routine “high flyer” move these days. And not an especially unsafe one, generally speaking, at that. I fail to see how this is any different than Shotzi apparently blowing out her knee after being knocked off the apron to the floor during a “meaningless” NXT TV taping that is watched by about 4 tumbleweeds and a passing bison by your standard. It’s wrestling, it’s an incredibly dangerous performance art. Sometimes shit happens. I just hope it doesn’t derail the momentum that Jeff had been picking up recently, because he’s really been putting on shockingly good performances and having a bit of a career renaissance. Doing a completely unnecessary move that has historically been recognized for it's absurdly high risk vs. reward element in a nothing TV match and hurting somebody is, in fact, not the same as getting hurt on a rotinue move, lmao. It's just not. Yeah, sometimes shit happens. Sometimes, a guy also tries to get his shit in in situations where it's totally unnecessary and yes, when that goes wrong, you get some heat!! RIGHTFULLY!! So in other words, matches on Rampage should consist of rolling in the floor for five minutes and involve no maneuvers whatsoever cause "it's watched by three tumbleweeds". Give me a break. Anything to sneak in the backhanded "no one watches AEW" jab... Again. I'm not being funny, even a little bit. Is the argument here that you cannot have an exciting match (a f***ing HARDCORE match) without a flippy-do that folks will literally only remember if it goes wrong (and surprise surprise, what are we talking about this spot for?). That...is just not true, haha. It's just not. Even for AEW audiences, one missing flippy doo is NOT going to be the difference maker between a solid vs. good match. And you know what? I'll humor the "no one watches AEW" comment. Lemme take a quick look at Rampage's for the last few weeks... 2/9: 456,000 (don't get too excited, this was the literal peak after like a year) 2/2: 314,000 1/26: 358,000 1/19: 390,000 Mkay. Now, let's glance at Dynamite ratings. Not seeing the most recent episode (I could just not be seeing it) so let's start with the one before that... 2/7: 805,000 1/31: 818,000 1/24: 837,000 1/17: 891,000 And for funsies, let's look at Collison to get the full sampler plate... 2/3: 404,000 1/27: 300,000 (this went against the Rumble so could realistically put an asterik on it) 1/20: 441,000 1/13: 400,000 Well, f*** me like Sara Jay at her day job! My mistake, Rampage isn't watched by three tumbleweeds, it's just by far and away the least watched show amongst AEW CORE AUDIENCE. THE HARDCORES. THE FOLKS THAT WATCH EVERY SHOW EVERY WEEK. THAT is the show that Sammy decided "hell yeah, hoes gonna go wild for this flip" while working against a man with more miles on his body than I-75. Sorry about that, gang. I hope the clarification helps!!
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Feb 15, 2024 16:18:00 GMT -5
I don't think this is Sammy's fault so much as just a freak accident that could've happened to anyone but also, like, there's a reason you don't hear about all of the crazy shit people are getting up to on LVL Up and back in the day Sunday Night Heat wasn't exactly a generally must-watch show even before SmackDown existed. Not saying just do a bunch of two minute squashes but there's no reason to go all out unless people are actually watching.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,144
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Feb 15, 2024 16:19:32 GMT -5
It was a random accident. I do think Sammy needs to be reigned in a bit but I also don't think it's this system wide problem that needs to be addressed.
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Post by Denny Zen on Feb 15, 2024 16:25:31 GMT -5
Condescension aside, the point is that in modern wrestling a shooting star press is as routine as a spot knocking someone off of the apron even though both, at one point in wrestling's history, would have been considered dangerous "high spots" (so much so that apron spots like what apparently injured Shotzi used to be automatic DQs). I would argue that a fall from 3 feet onto a thinly padded concrete floor is more "inherently" dangerous than a backflip body press from the top rope executed by a trained wrestler who does them in almost every match, but either way the point stands that it is really a hollow and disingenuous criticism to suggest that Guevara was being irresponsible and "getting his shit in" on a "show no one watches" for doing a shooting star press. And we know, Rampage gets fewer live viewers than Collision and Dynamite, which all get fewer live viewers than RAW and SmackDown. I'll spare everyone the argument on whether live TV viewership is an accurate metric of who's "watching," but either way, does the fact that it's the least watched mainstream wrestling show on cable mean that the wrestlers on Rampage shouldn't try and put on entertaining matches for the fans? It's just a strange argument to me.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Feb 15, 2024 16:34:03 GMT -5
Yes, yes they do. You'd think after the last couple of weeks we'd have given up with the 'WWE is the golden child who never gets criticised compared to AEW' persecution complex. Since you stopped bolding the entire statement/sentence halfway where I was making that point, I will reiterate, AEW when it comes to any time an injury happens gets weirdly persecuted harder than any company, not just WWE. Suddenly they are unsafe, sloppy, bush league where they can't be trusted and their style is way worse and more unsafe than any other company in the world There's nothing to "give up", that is literally how people treat these incidents with AEW and very specifically AEW and the online reaction to this only shows that further. Just by way of example, here's the thread after Big E's injury... officialfan.proboards.com/thread/618478/big-injured-fractured-vertebrae-damage?Plenty of posts blaming Ridge, posts calling him an unsafe worker and lots and lots of posts blaming WWE. The spot shouldn't have happened, it's part of a systemic issue, they should be held accountable. I'm not seeing what's in this thread that's in any way harsher on AEW.
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Post by Denny Zen on Feb 15, 2024 16:36:50 GMT -5
Since you stopped bolding the entire statement/sentence halfway where I was making that point, I will reiterate, AEW when it comes to any time an injury happens gets weirdly persecuted harder than any company, not just WWE. Suddenly they are unsafe, sloppy, bush league where they can't be trusted and their style is way worse and more unsafe than any other company in the world There's nothing to "give up", that is literally how people treat these incidents with AEW and very specifically AEW and the online reaction to this only shows that further. Just by way of example, here's the thread after Big E's injury... officialfan.proboards.com/thread/618478/big-injured-fractured-vertebrae-damage?Plenty of posts blaming Ridge, posts calling him an unsafe worker and lots and lots of posts blaming WWE. The spot shouldn't have happened, it's part of a systemic issue, they should be held accountable. I'm not seeing what's in this thread that's in any way harsher on AEW. I don't think that AEW gets criticized any more harshly than WWE when particular incidents occur, but I do think that there's a popular notion that AEW is sloppier and more dangerous than WWE, which is "safer and more professional." I think Meltzer really egged that on with Tweets like this one: twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/1719760925560016897(For some reason I can't get the Tweet to embed).
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Feb 15, 2024 16:46:18 GMT -5
I think a few things are at play:
- Sammy's not totally at fault here, IMO. Stuff happens.
- It does make me wonder if he should save the SSP for bigger TV moments and go with something like a Frog Splash instead, though. While there are instances of people getting hurt off that, it's still got less inherent risk than a Shooting Star.
I know that there are some things that fans just take as "regular moves" now, but I don't think some minor audience retraining on certain shows would hurt.
By the way, the good news is that it seems Jeff only sustained a broken nose last night and not a concussion. Probably dodged a bullet.
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markymark
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,258
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Post by markymark on Feb 15, 2024 16:58:04 GMT -5
Alvarez confirmed on WOL that Jeff sustained a broken nose but no concussion.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 17:14:01 GMT -5
Alvarez confirmed on WOL that Jeff sustained a broken nose but no concussion. Happy to hear Jeff's not seriously hurt, he's been on a surprisingly great tear of matches lately
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GOTHIC CHARISMA 🧊 🥶❄️FURY
Grimlock
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Post by GOTHIC CHARISMA 🧊 🥶❄️FURY on Feb 15, 2024 17:14:50 GMT -5
It was clearly an accident but DAMN that had to hurt. He's lucky his head or neck isn't destroyed, a broken nose is a huge W with how nasty that looked.
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