Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,338
Member is Online
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 17:18:56 GMT -5
I don't think this is Sammy's fault so much as just a freak accident that could've happened to anyone but also, like, there's a reason you don't hear about all of the crazy shit people are getting up to on LVL Up and back in the day Sunday Night Heat wasn't exactly a generally must-watch show even before SmackDown existed. Not saying just do a bunch of two minute squashes but there's no reason to go all out unless people are actually watching. People are actually watching. Idk what Sunday Night Heat's numbers were (And it was a different cable landscape) but Rampage is watched by far more people than LVL Up and that's not a fair comparison. The crowds themselves are still the same Dynamite crowds maybe minus a bit for people who leave to go home early, plus the live viewership which does absolutely fine when you consider a lot of people DVR and watch Rampage later opposed to live, which drives the number up more and is never brought up in these discussions... This is the TV Spot in some instances some of these wrestlers get in the week to show out and put on a performance. And given a good amount of people do in fact watch Rampage and Rampage can be recapped on either other show, I don't see why these guys shouldn't be trying because "It's Rampage", and this argument completely falls the f*** apart if this literal freak accident happens on Dynamite or Collision. Like does all of a sudden that make the spot more valid? Whole discussion doesn't sit right with me tbh, Rampage is just catching strays for no reason other than some people deem it useless.
|
|
jm
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,082
|
Post by jm on Feb 15, 2024 17:39:26 GMT -5
I don't think this is Sammy's fault so much as just a freak accident that could've happened to anyone but also, like, there's a reason you don't hear about all of the crazy shit people are getting up to on LVL Up and back in the day Sunday Night Heat wasn't exactly a generally must-watch show even before SmackDown existed. Not saying just do a bunch of two minute squashes but there's no reason to go all out unless people are actually watching. So going by that logic: why are wrestlers going all out on TV at all? Aren't the PPVs and PLEs the most important thing? So therefore, why don't wrestlers save the big spots for PPVs only and just make TV all squash matches? That's what you are saying.
|
|
|
Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Feb 15, 2024 17:46:16 GMT -5
I don't think this is Sammy's fault so much as just a freak accident that could've happened to anyone but also, like, there's a reason you don't hear about all of the crazy shit people are getting up to on LVL Up and back in the day Sunday Night Heat wasn't exactly a generally must-watch show even before SmackDown existed. Not saying just do a bunch of two minute squashes but there's no reason to go all out unless people are actually watching. So going by that logic: why are wrestlers going all out on TV at all? Aren't the PPVs and PLEs the most important thing? So therefore, why don't wrestlers save the big spots for PPVs only and just make TV all squash matches? That's what you are saying. You’re dumbing down his argument when there are levels to this stuff. He’s saying maybe don’t kill yourself on the C show. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,338
Member is Online
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 17:47:22 GMT -5
The wrestlers get paid the same annual salary regardless of the show and the SSP is an every match move for a lot of wrestlers and has been for two decades now. This just seems bizarre as a mindset given I don't think anyone ever says this about say, lariats, which can also mess people up. I think we can be pretty transparent that a SSP carries more risk than a Lariat tho? ...Right? I'm not trying to be funny, the SSP, by design, is a move that even if you nail that shit 99.99%, that .01% where it doesn't go well? Pretty much ALWAYS catastrophic and literally nothing but the luck of fools that saves folks from serious injury Wrestling’s “power creep” with regard to moves that used to be used exclusively as finishers and on big shows becoming commonplace is an entirely different discussion, but the SSP is a pretty routine “high flyer” move these days. And not an especially unsafe one, generally speaking, at that. I fail to see how this is any different than Shotzi apparently blowing out her knee after being knocked off the apron to the floor during a “meaningless” NXT TV taping that is watched by about 4 tumbleweeds and a passing bison by your standard. It’s wrestling, it’s an incredibly dangerous performance art. Sometimes shit happens. I just hope it doesn’t derail the momentum that Jeff had been picking up recently, because he’s really been putting on shockingly good performances and having a bit of a career renaissance. Doing a completely unnecessary move that has historically been recognized for it's absurdly high risk vs. reward element in a nothing TV match and hurting somebody is, in fact, not the same as getting hurt on a rotinue move, lmao. It's just not. Yeah, sometimes shit happens. Sometimes, a guy also tries to get his shit in in situations where it's totally unnecessary and yes, when that goes wrong, you get some heat!! RIGHTFULLY!! Anything to sneak in the backhanded "no one watches AEW" jab... Again. I'm not being funny, even a little bit. Is the argument here that you cannot have an exciting match (a f***ing HARDCORE match) without a flippy-do that folks will literally only remember if it goes wrong (and surprise surprise, what are we talking about this spot for?). That...is just not true, haha. It's just not. Even for AEW audiences, one missing flippy doo is NOT going to be the difference maker between a solid vs. good match. And you know what? I'll humor the "no one watches AEW" comment. Lemme take a quick look at Rampage's for the last few weeks... 2/9: 456,000 (don't get too excited, this was the literal peak after like a year) 2/2: 314,000 1/26: 358,000 1/19: 390,000 Mkay. Now, let's glance at Dynamite ratings. Not seeing the most recent episode (I could just not be seeing it) so let's start with the one before that... 2/7: 805,000 1/31: 818,000 1/24: 837,000 1/17: 891,000 And for funsies, let's look at Collison to get the full sampler plate... 2/3: 404,000 1/27: 300,000 (this went against the Rumble so could realistically put an asterik on it) 1/20: 441,000 1/13: 400,000 Well, f*** me like Sara Jay at her day job! My mistake, Rampage isn't watched by three tumbleweeds, it's just by far and away the least watched show amongst AEW CORE AUDIENCE. THE HARDCORES. THE FOLKS THAT WATCH EVERY SHOW EVERY WEEK. THAT is the show that Sammy decided "hell yeah, hoes gonna go wild for this flip" while working against a man with more miles on his body than I-75. Sorry about that, gang. I hope the clarification helps!! 1. The description of the SSP is the description for dozens of other moves that are even less complex than it. A Lariat has f***ed people up as well in just as many devastating ways just for it being taken wrong, this isn't disingenuous 2. It was ultimately an accident, and the move was what it was, I don't see why Sammy should catch heat for hitting a move he has his fine hundreds of times when in this one instance it just happened to go wrong because- 3. -It also happened to be on a show you have deemed worthless because "Look at these stats which inherently prove this is a nothing show watched by tumbleweeds" in your words. Again, Darby and Jeff just had a crazy Rampage match with crazier spots and neither man was hurt, and the match was universally given high marks. Sammy did what is nowadays a much more routine move than it was back in the day and sadly it was botched, but thankfully Jeff seems to have come out of it without any serious injury. Once again I feel it incredibly disingenuous to come down on this move, and the attempt, simply because it was on Rampage as opposed to it being on Dynamite, as if the move being messed up would have been more validating if it had happened in front of more live Nielson Viewers. Sorry if this doesn't sit right with me or if your clarification doesn't help me understand why you are so adamant on coming down as hard as you are on this. No one said the injury didn't suck and that it wasn't unfortunate, it happening on Rampage has nothing to do with f***ing anything and you're trying to make it a core part of the argument for some reason.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,338
Member is Online
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 17:50:49 GMT -5
So going by that logic: why are wrestlers going all out on TV at all? Aren't the PPVs and PLEs the most important thing? So therefore, why don't wrestlers save the big spots for PPVs only and just make TV all squash matches? That's what you are saying. You’re dumbing down his argument when there are levels to this stuff. He’s saying maybe don’t kill yourself on the C show. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Nobody was even killing themselves on the C-Show, it was an ACCIDENT on a move Sammy has done routinely that just so happened to go wrong It could have easily have gone as wrong on any of the other programs, it wasn't something he just happened to bust out on Rampage and only Rampage or the shock that he did it on Rampage because we're just supposed to apparently not do moves on Rampage... like this wasn't a top rope One Winged Angel here, it was a SSP, it's not the move people are gassing it up to be, especially these days, in terms of a move that should be saved for bigger events opposed to others.
|
|
jm
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,082
|
Post by jm on Feb 15, 2024 17:51:59 GMT -5
So going by that logic: why are wrestlers going all out on TV at all? Aren't the PPVs and PLEs the most important thing? So therefore, why don't wrestlers save the big spots for PPVs only and just make TV all squash matches? That's what you are saying. You’re dumbing down his argument when there are levels to this stuff. He’s saying maybe don’t kill yourself on the C show. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. There have been worse injuries that have happened on other places than on "The C Show". If the argument is that you shouldn't do anything on shows that "don't matter", then what about the injuries that have happened on PPVs? Are those somehow "ok" cause they happened on a "important show"? The reasoning is flawed from the beginning when the original poster dismisses Rampage as "a show watched by tumbleweeds" and that's why the injury is bad.
|
|
|
Post by Lizuka #BLM on Feb 15, 2024 17:52:07 GMT -5
So going by that logic: why are wrestlers going all out on TV at all? Aren't the PPVs and PLEs the most important thing? So therefore, why don't wrestlers save the big spots for PPVs only and just make TV all squash matches? That's what you are saying. I don't think this is Sammy's fault so much as just a freak accident that could've happened to anyone but also, like, there's a reason you don't hear about all of the crazy shit people are getting up to on LVL Up and back in the day Sunday Night Heat wasn't exactly a generally must-watch show even before SmackDown existed. Not saying just do a bunch of two minute squashes but there's no reason to go all out unless people are actually watching.
|
|
|
Post by stoptheclocks on Feb 15, 2024 17:57:18 GMT -5
Just by way of example, here's the thread after Big E's injury... officialfan.proboards.com/thread/618478/big-injured-fractured-vertebrae-damage?Plenty of posts blaming Ridge, posts calling him an unsafe worker and lots and lots of posts blaming WWE. The spot shouldn't have happened, it's part of a systemic issue, they should be held accountable. I'm not seeing what's in this thread that's in any way harsher on AEW. I don't think that AEW gets criticized any more harshly than WWE when particular incidents occur, but I do think that there's a popular notion that AEW is sloppier and more dangerous than WWE, which is "safer and more professional." I think Meltzer really egged that on with Tweets like this one: (For some reason I can't get the Tweet to embed). They just get criticised for different things. With AEW it's the idea that the roster is full of immature spot monkeys from the indies. With WWE it's either that they don't care to train their wrestlers properly, prioritise models/athletes over wrestlers or are just generally uncaring and evil. But they're certainly not let off the hook for anything.
|
|
|
Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Feb 15, 2024 17:59:44 GMT -5
You’re dumbing down his argument when there are levels to this stuff. He’s saying maybe don’t kill yourself on the C show. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. There have been worse injuries that have happened on other places than on "The C Show". If the argument is that you shouldn't do anything on shows that "don't matter", then what about the injuries that have happened on PPVs? Are those somehow "ok" cause they happened on a "important show"? The reasoning is flawed from the beginning when the original poster dismisses Rampage as "a show watched by tumbleweeds" and that's why the injury is bad. Yes, if he did this on Dynamite and got hurt, he did it in front of a full crowd during a show we know is watched by at least 800K to 1MM people, so that’s worth it more than a show that is watched by markedly less folks. It’s why you save certain stuff for PPVs. I don’t see why this is such a crazy concept. Yes, right now a Shooting Star Press is a “usual” move, but the point is that maybe it shouldn’t be as common as something like a Frog Splash.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,338
Member is Online
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 18:11:58 GMT -5
There have been worse injuries that have happened on other places than on "The C Show". If the argument is that you shouldn't do anything on shows that "don't matter", then what about the injuries that have happened on PPVs? Are those somehow "ok" cause they happened on a "important show"? The reasoning is flawed from the beginning when the original poster dismisses Rampage as "a show watched by tumbleweeds" and that's why the injury is bad. Yes, if he did this on Dynamite and got hurt, he did it in front of a full crowd during a show we know is watched by at least 800K to 1MM people, so that’s worth it more than a show that is watched by markedly less folks. It’s why you save certain stuff for PPVs. I don’t see why this is such a crazy concept. Yes, right now a Shooting Star Press is a “usual” move, but the point is that maybe it shouldn’t be. If Sammy never hit the move right then I could understand it But Rampage isn't a House Show, it's still watched by a lot of people live and afterwards on DVR, and a lot of people at the shows who don't leave I might get it if they did really insane shit for no reason but Sammy did by all accounts a normal high-risk move that would have been the exact same caliber of a move on any program, it just happens to be botched on Rampage, so f*** Rampage for existing and they shouldn't make Rampage matches interesting because less people who have Nielson Boxes watch it live Idk maybe I'm in the minority here but this mentality just makes it feel like nothing should ever happen on Rampage, and as someone who watches the show every week and really enjoys the quality of work they've been putting out, I feel like it's insulting to the show and the work being put in on that product to say a Shooting Star Press is "too risky" of a move for the show suddenly
|
|
06vwgti
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,083
Member is Online
|
Post by 06vwgti on Feb 15, 2024 18:17:49 GMT -5
There have been worse injuries that have happened on other places than on "The C Show". If the argument is that you shouldn't do anything on shows that "don't matter", then what about the injuries that have happened on PPVs? Are those somehow "ok" cause they happened on a "important show"? The reasoning is flawed from the beginning when the original poster dismisses Rampage as "a show watched by tumbleweeds" and that's why the injury is bad. Yes, if he did this on Dynamite and got hurt, he did it in front of a full crowd during a show we know is watched by at least 800K to 1MM people, so that’s worth it more than a show that is watched by markedly less folks. It’s why you save certain stuff for PPVs. I don’t see why this is such a crazy concept. Yes, right now a Shooting Star Press is a “usual” move, but the point is that maybe it shouldn’t be as common as something like a Frog Splash. But not everyone gets to work PPVs
|
|
|
Post by EP 54 is banned from Collision on Feb 15, 2024 18:21:21 GMT -5
All I wan't to know is when are AEW AND WWE going to be doing the SANE thing and BANNING the SUPER-DANGEROUS MOVE that has injured HIGH FLYERS like RVD and PAC as well as wrestlers such as Maven and Enzo Amore! the super deadly BASEBALL SLIDE.
|
|
|
Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Feb 15, 2024 18:27:16 GMT -5
Yes, if he did this on Dynamite and got hurt, he did it in front of a full crowd during a show we know is watched by at least 800K to 1MM people, so that’s worth it more than a show that is watched by markedly less folks. It’s why you save certain stuff for PPVs. I don’t see why this is such a crazy concept. Yes, right now a Shooting Star Press is a “usual” move, but the point is that maybe it shouldn’t be. If Sammy never hit the move right then I could understand it But Rampage isn't a House Show, it's still watched by a lot of people live and afterwards on DVR, and a lot of people at the shows who don't leave I might get it if they did really insane shit for no reason but Sammy did by all accounts a normal high-risk move that would have been the exact same caliber of a move on any program, it just happens to be botched on Rampage, so f*** Rampage for existing and they shouldn't make Rampage matches interesting because less people who have Nielson Boxes watch it live Idk maybe I'm in the minority here but this mentality just makes it feel like nothing should ever happen on Rampage, and as someone who watches the show every week and really enjoys the quality of work they've been putting out, I feel like it's insulting to the show and the work being put in on that product to say a Shooting Star Press is "too risky" of a move for the show suddenly I just don’t see why suggesting someone does slightly less high risk because it’s not in front of as many people becomes this huge dismissal of the whole program. That’s not what I’m suggesting. Agree to disagree, because this is just not going to go anywhere productive given where we each stand. Glad your power is back.
|
|
jm
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,082
|
Post by jm on Feb 15, 2024 18:58:27 GMT -5
All I wan't to know is when are AEW AND WWE going to be doing the SANE thing and BANNING the SUPER-DANGEROUS MOVE that has injured HIGH FLYERS like RVD and PAC as well as wrestlers such as Maven and Enzo Amore! the super deadly BASEBALL SLIDE. Don't forget the SUPER-DANGEROUS MOVE that put Hangman out of action for MONTHS: the ultra super deadly LARIAT!!!!!!
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,338
Member is Online
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 15, 2024 19:12:08 GMT -5
If Sammy never hit the move right then I could understand it But Rampage isn't a House Show, it's still watched by a lot of people live and afterwards on DVR, and a lot of people at the shows who don't leave I might get it if they did really insane shit for no reason but Sammy did by all accounts a normal high-risk move that would have been the exact same caliber of a move on any program, it just happens to be botched on Rampage, so f*** Rampage for existing and they shouldn't make Rampage matches interesting because less people who have Nielson Boxes watch it live Idk maybe I'm in the minority here but this mentality just makes it feel like nothing should ever happen on Rampage, and as someone who watches the show every week and really enjoys the quality of work they've been putting out, I feel like it's insulting to the show and the work being put in on that product to say a Shooting Star Press is "too risky" of a move for the show suddenly I just don’t see why suggesting someone does slightly less high risk because it’s not in front of as many people becomes this huge dismissal of the whole program. That’s not what I’m suggesting. Agree to disagree, because this is just not going to go anywhere productive given where we each stand. Glad your power is back. With great power comes great responsibility... to argue in a Rampage Spoilers thread about move semantics
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,338
Member is Online
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 16, 2024 19:16:33 GMT -5
Actually insane how good that match was and all the crazy shit they did where everything was precise and without any issue that was even crazier than the SSP... but all people will focus on is the accidental knee, the one thing that went wrong, and likely, a lot of the people who pearl clutched won't even see the full match It's beyond frustrating, yeah it was a botch, yeah it sucked, glad Jeff Hardy is ok, but in the end, it shows how unpredictable wrestling is, and that match showed Sammy was the exact opposite of sloppy to make those insane spots work seamlessly, just saying. And those three tumbleweeds were very loud tonight
|
|
jm
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,082
|
Post by jm on Feb 16, 2024 19:20:41 GMT -5
Actually insane how good that match was and all the crazy shit they did where everything was precise and without any issue that was even crazier than the SSP... but all people will focus on is the accidental knee, the one thing that went wrong, and likely, a lot of the people who pearl clutched won't even see the full match It's beyond frustrating, yeah it was a botch, yeah it sucked, glad Jeff Hardy is ok, but in the end, it shows how unpredictable wrestling is, and that match showed Sammy was the exact opposite of sloppy to make those insane spots work seamlessly, just saying. And those three tumbleweeds were very loud tonight Well cjb you must understand. Crazy flips involving ladders are just fine, but the SSP is dangerous and must be banned immediately dammit!!!!
|
|
|
Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Feb 16, 2024 19:24:51 GMT -5
I’m glad people liked the match and that everyone is ok. I still stand by the thought that holding certain moves for special times is reasonable.
|
|
Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,338
Member is Online
|
Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 16, 2024 20:08:21 GMT -5
I’m glad people liked the match and that everyone is ok. I still stand by the thought that holding certain moves for special times is reasonable. It is, that wasn't even really the argument that people were mad at in here tbh I also don't think Jeff is going to be on the Revolution PPV, I could be proved wrong in the coming weeks, but he's going all out where he's being put and the last few weeks he's been all the better for it
|
|