Who’s winning at Mania? Jimmy or Jey

[chazraps]

Feb 22, 2024 13:24:34 GMT -5 ChitownKnight said:

Feb 22, 2024 13:12:48 GMT -5 chazraps said:

This is absolutely nothing like Bret vs Owen beyond the fact that they're brothers. Bret vs Owen had Bret as a former world champ and longtime established guy reluctantly facing his brother, who had been largely lower-card/enhancement talent, and giving him a chance to showcase to immeadiately make him a top singles competitor and a viable threat.

Aside from the fact that Jimmy is no Owen Hart, there's nothing new to establish about current day Jimmy. We've known him exactly as long as we've known Jey. We've seen Jey have this big huge rise over the past year as a potential breakout star and since August, Jimmy's been the last obstacle for him to truly vanquish to allow him to reach the next level.

A Jey victory shows that on a big stage Jey can get the job done and truly unquestionably breakaway from the Bloodline and his tag team past to be a singles guy. That's what that achieves. It's what puts a strong foot forward and encourages the fans' cheering him.

Jimmy doesn't need a rub because there's nothing to rub. To "build up to Jey's level" is 50/50 booking that benefits nobody that absolutely destroyed the midcard (especially the upper midcard) for 15-20 years in WWE. You need to have some talent win more than others, and if the fans are behind them, shouting their catchphrase and buying their merch by the boxload, that's the one you get behind. Risking diluting that for someone you have no real hook for is just a poor business decision and bad writing.

And for all the Matt-Jeff 2009 comparisons - let's not put rose colored glasses on that. The feud was poorly received and did absolutely nothing for Matt or the show itself. The only time Matt vs Jeff worked was the Deletion era.

The thing with Jey is a victory over his brother (who’s been portrayed as a good) at mania won’t do that much for him. I think his match with Gunther did more tbh. Jey’s story is beating Gunther, hopefully in France

Jey's victory over his brother does two significant things: 1) it shows he can win as a singles star on a big stage and 2) it shows he's a rightfully a step above where he was in the Bloodline - that's character growth. If he loses to Jimmy he's back to being Jey Uso, the tag team wrestler who had a hot streak for a while but isn't better than Jimmy, which the crowd has no reason to get next-level invested in.

[Woo]

Feb 22, 2024 13:12:48 GMT -5 chazraps said:

Feb 22, 2024 9:10:09 GMT -5 Woo said:

Jimmy will win. He needs it more. A Jey victory doesn't really achieve anything. Jey is not going to win the belt, or challenge Cody for it, so why not build up Jimmy to Jey's level?


This will be just like Bret be Owen with the underdog heel brother who needs the rub more getting the victory.

This is absolutely nothing like Bret vs Owen beyond the fact that they're brothers. Bret vs Owen had Bret as a former world champ and longtime established guy reluctantly facing his brother, who had been largely lower-card/enhancement talent, and giving him a chance to showcase to immeadiately make him a top singles competitor and a viable threat.

Aside from the fact that Jimmy is no Owen Hart, there's nothing new to establish about current day Jimmy. We've known him exactly as long as we've known Jey. We've seen Jey have this big huge rise over the past year as a potential breakout star and since August, Jimmy's been the last obstacle for him to truly vanquish to allow him to reach the next level.

A Jey victory shows that on a big stage Jey can get the job done and truly unquestionably breakaway from the Bloodline and his tag team past to be a singles guy. That's what that achieves. It's what puts a strong foot forward and encourages the fans' cheering him.

Jimmy doesn't need a rub because there's nothing to rub. To "build up to Jey's level" is 50/50 booking that benefits nobody that absolutely destroyed the midcard (especially the upper midcard) for 15-20 years in WWE. You need to have some talent win more than others, and if the fans are behind them, shouting their catchphrase and buying their merch by the boxload, that's the one you get behind. Risking diluting that for someone you have no real hook for is just a poor business decision and bad writing.

And for all the Matt-Jeff 2009 comparisons - let's not put rose colored glasses on that. The feud was poorly received and did absolutely nothing for Matt or the show itself. The only time Matt vs Jeff worked was the Deletion era.

Jey will definitely end up winning the feud, big there's no reason WrestleMania has to be their only match.

Jey is already "Main event Jey Uso". Jimmy needs this more. I can't see the point in Jey winning, what would you do with him after? Immediately lose to Codyv in a title match? Having him feud with Jimmy in ever increasing stipulation matches is a perfect way to keep both busy and out of the title feuds.

Or if you have Jimmy winning then you can have him be one of the first opponents of Cody's reign.

[chazraps]

Feb 22, 2024 13:36:42 GMT -5 Woo said:

Feb 22, 2024 13:12:48 GMT -5 chazraps said:

This is absolutely nothing like Bret vs Owen beyond the fact that they're brothers. Bret vs Owen had Bret as a former world champ and longtime established guy reluctantly facing his brother, who had been largely lower-card/enhancement talent, and giving him a chance to showcase to immeadiately make him a top singles competitor and a viable threat.

Aside from the fact that Jimmy is no Owen Hart, there's nothing new to establish about current day Jimmy. We've known him exactly as long as we've known Jey. We've seen Jey have this big huge rise over the past year as a potential breakout star and since August, Jimmy's been the last obstacle for him to truly vanquish to allow him to reach the next level.

A Jey victory shows that on a big stage Jey can get the job done and truly unquestionably breakaway from the Bloodline and his tag team past to be a singles guy. That's what that achieves. It's what puts a strong foot forward and encourages the fans' cheering him.

Jimmy doesn't need a rub because there's nothing to rub. To "build up to Jey's level" is 50/50 booking that benefits nobody that absolutely destroyed the midcard (especially the upper midcard) for 15-20 years in WWE. You need to have some talent win more than others, and if the fans are behind them, shouting their catchphrase and buying their merch by the boxload, that's the one you get behind. Risking diluting that for someone you have no real hook for is just a poor business decision and bad writing.

And for all the Matt-Jeff 2009 comparisons - let's not put rose colored glasses on that. The feud was poorly received and did absolutely nothing for Matt or the show itself. The only time Matt vs Jeff worked was the Deletion era.

Jey will definitely end to winning the feud, big there's no reason WrestleMania has to be their only match.

Jey is already "Main event Jey Uso". Jimmy needs this more. I can't see the point in Jey winning, what would you do with him after? Immediately lose to Codyv in a title match? Having him feud with Jimmy in ever increasing stipulation matches is a perfect way to keep both busy and out of the title feuds.

Or if you have Jimmy winning then you can have him be one of the first opponents of Cody's reign.

The reason Wrestlemania has to be their only match is because nobody wants this shit dragged out. You aren't getting a bigger stage that counts than Wrestlemania. This feud does not need, for any reason, to last past Mania.

The point in Jey winning is because, if he doesn't he's NOT "Main Event Jey Uso" anymore. He's the guy who lost to the tag team guy that's shown no noteworthy singles wins ever. It's a as momentum derailing as it gets. And the fans can't get invested in that.

Nobody would give a shit about Jimmy - the guy who no decent singles history - going against Cody. That's a non-starter out the gate. Solo is a MUCH more viable opponent for Cody is we want to drag that out. You don't *need* to do anything with Jimmy in his currnet incarnation. Jimmy losing is ultimately better for Jimmy as storyline/character-wise it gives him a reason to go back to the drawing board, fundamentally change as a character and find his own lane. Having him beat Jey gives him incentive to just keep being "the other Uso" like Marty Jannetty was wearing Rockers attire with Rockers music long after they broke up. There's infinitely SO MANY MORE places you can go with Jimmy if he loses.

Having Jey continue to feud with Jimmy ultimately won't mean shit regardless how many more stipulation you put on it because "Main Event" Jey Uso couldn't win at Wrestlemania. Continuing to fight the guy who has only been a tag team guy just keep Jey at the tag team guy level and undoes everything Jey's done over the past year.

Jey winning gives him fully cemented credibility to go against other top tier main eventers. Of course putting him vs Cody right away would be bad booking - absolutely nobody is suggesting that. But look at the top main event heels waiting for Jey once he wins at Mania: Gunther (over the IC belt), Drew McIntyre (which Drew's been angling at), Damien Priest (potentially over the MITB briefcase) - not to mention the likely draft after Mania that could bring over AJ Styles, Logan Paul, Sheamus, or the rumored heel-turn Randy Orton.

If Jey loses at Mania, he's the tag guy who lost at Mania. If he wins, he's the single star with the momentum of a Mania win.

Continuing this shit past Mania with or without a Jimmy win is just Fed-Pilled Vince booking that we've seen for almost two decades now is bad commercially and artistically. If WWE's going to change for the better, now's the time.

[stoptheclocks]

Count me in as someone who'd be happy to see them have multiple matches at PLE's, so that's one person at least.

I thought the idea of someone being ruined forever because they lost a match died with Cody last year. Individual wins and losses are irrelevant. If they continue to book Jey like a big deal losing at WrestleMania won't hurt him. If they don't, winning at WrestleMania will be forgotten in a month.

[J is Justice]

Jey should definitely win. Jimmy's entertaining in this role, but Jey's the star of the two.

[chazraps]

Feb 22, 2024 14:45:50 GMT -5 stoptheclocks said:

Count me in as someone who'd be happy to see them have multiple matches at PLE's, so that's one person at least.

I thought the idea of someone being ruined forever because they lost a match died with Cody last year. Individual wins and losses are irrelevant. If they continue to book Jey like a big deal losing at WrestleMania won't hurt him. If they don't, winning at WrestleMania will be forgotten in a month.

Cody's a generational talent. Nobody else on the current WWE roster has his connection to the audience. He's the sole exception.

Plus, Cody losing to Roman - the most protected WWE wrestler this side of the millennium - is A LOT different than Jey losing to the guy who hasn't had a meaningful singles victory ever.

Individual wins and losses absolutely matter. Look at the last twenty years of guys who momentum who've had it hindered due to 50/50 booking and losing when it really mattered.

[Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story]

I'm honestly fine with either direction and I'm not sold that Jey losing would put him behind the 8 ball that much in the current WWE landscape. The current WWE doesn't seem to forget people after they take big losses. Chad Gable lost to Gunther twice, took a brief backseat but just scored a big win over Ivar on Monday and got cheered pretty hard.

My preference would be Jey beating Jimmy, Jey winning a singles title and Jimmy rearing his ugly head again at that point via the Draft. That said, they do kind of need to give Jimmy something. He's looked like an absolute goof this whole time and I'm not sure he even feels like competition for Jey heading into Mania. That's not good, either.

[Nosnorb]

Feb 22, 2024 15:11:29 GMT -5 Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story said:

I'm honestly fine with either direction and I'm not sold that Jey losing would put him behind the 8 ball that much in the current WWE landscape. The current WWE doesn't seem to forget people after they take big losses. Chad Gable lost to Gunther twice, took a brief backseat but just scored a big win over Ivar on Monday and got cheered pretty hard.

My preference would be Jey beating Jimmy, Jey winning a singles title and Jimmy rearing his ugly head again at that point via the Draft. That said, they do kind of need to give Jimmy something. He's looked like an absolute goof this whole time and I'm not sure he even feels like competition for Jey heading into Mania. That's not good, either.

Gunther has been presented as a top star leading his own stable and a dude who is destined for the main event. Jimmy Uso is now 4th on the Bloodline Totem pole and nobody in his stable takes him seriously. Losing to Jimmy would be a lot more damaging to Jey than it was for Chad to lose to The Ring General twice. Jey really needs to start racking up the PPV wins.

[hashtagdaley/JudasDay]

Go Jim. Comedic goof is better than “Main Event” Jey.

[Woo]

Feb 22, 2024 13:53:15 GMT -5 chazraps said:

Feb 22, 2024 13:36:42 GMT -5 Woo said:

Jey will definitely end to winning the feud, big there's no reason WrestleMania has to be their only match.

Jey is already "Main event Jey Uso". Jimmy needs this more. I can't see the point in Jey winning, what would you do with him after? Immediately lose to Codyv in a title match? Having him feud with Jimmy in ever increasing stipulation matches is a perfect way to keep both busy and out of the title feuds.

Or if you have Jimmy winning then you can have him be one of the first opponents of Cody's reign.

The reason Wrestlemania has to be their only match is because nobody wants this shit dragged out. You aren't getting a bigger stage that counts than Wrestlemania. This feud does not need, for any reason, to last past Mania.

The point in Jey winning is because, if he doesn't he's NOT "Main Event Jey Uso" anymore. He's the guy who lost to the tag team guy that's shown no noteworthy singles wins ever. It's a as momentum derailing as it gets. And the fans can't get invested in that.

Nobody would give a shit about Jimmy - the guy who no decent singles history - going against Cody. That's a non-starter out the gate. Solo is a MUCH more viable opponent for Cody is we want to drag that out. You don't *need* to do anything with Jimmy in his currnet incarnation. Jimmy losing is ultimately better for Jimmy as storyline/character-wise it gives him a reason to go back to the drawing board, fundamentally change as a character and find his own lane. Having him beat Jey gives him incentive to just keep being "the other Uso" like Marty Jannetty was wearing Rockers attire with Rockers music long after they broke up. There's infinitely SO MANY MORE places you can go with Jimmy if he loses.

Having Jey continue to feud with Jimmy ultimately won't mean shit regardless how many more stipulation you put on it because "Main Event" Jey Uso couldn't win at Wrestlemania. Continuing to fight the guy who has only been a tag team guy just keep Jey at the tag team guy level and undoes everything Jey's done over the past year.

Jey winning gives him fully cemented credibility to go against other top tier main eventers. Of course putting him vs Cody right away would be bad booking - absolutely nobody is suggesting that. But look at the top main event heels waiting for Jey once he wins at Mania: Gunther (over the IC belt), Drew McIntyre (which Drew's been angling at), Damien Priest (potentially over the MITB briefcase) - not to mention the likely draft after Mania that could bring over AJ Styles, Logan Paul, Sheamus, or the rumored heel-turn Randy Orton.

If Jey loses at Mania, he's the tag guy who lost at Mania. If he wins, he's the single star with the momentum of a Mania win.

Continuing this shit past Mania with or without a Jimmy win is just Fed-Pilled Vince booking that we've seen for almost two decades now is bad commercially and artistically. If WWE's going to change for the better, now's the time.

I disagree entirety. You saying nobody cares about Jimmy is exactly why needs to win this match.

Also Jey feuding with Jimmy is better than Jay doing nothing in the mid card. Have him feud and then defeat Jimmy then if he's ready see if he's ready for a title run.

If Jimmy loses this then he's done as a credible singles star.

[Lizuka #BLM]

Saying Jimmy's done if he loses doesn't exactly make me want to see him win given I really see nothing in him to begin with. Jey's the star, treat him like it.

[Woo]

Feb 22, 2024 16:53:09 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

Saying Jimmy's done if he loses doesn't exactly make me want to see him win given I really see nothing in him to begin with. Jey's the star, treat him like it.

It's matter to make two stars than one. Jey is already a star and the loss won't hurt him.

[Nosnorb]

Feb 22, 2024 16:55:38 GMT -5 Woo said:

Feb 22, 2024 16:53:09 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

Saying Jimmy's done if he loses doesn't exactly make me want to see him win given I really see nothing in him to begin with. Jey's the star, treat him like it.

It's matter to make two stars than one. Jey is already a star and the loss won't hurt him.

Right now, Jey hasn't had a singles win on PPV since leaving The Bloodline. He needs to start getting wins on PPV and losing to the bitch of the Bloodline would be an awful decision. Jey has a banging entrance theme and babyface energy for days, but that won't count for much if he starts getting a rep as a dude who cannot get it done when it counts.

[papagiorgio]

Probably Jey, but Matt Hardy did beat Jeff Hardy at Mania.

[stoptheclocks]

Feb 22, 2024 14:59:08 GMT -5 chazraps said:

Feb 22, 2024 14:45:50 GMT -5 stoptheclocks said:

Count me in as someone who'd be happy to see them have multiple matches at PLE's, so that's one person at least.

I thought the idea of someone being ruined forever because they lost a match died with Cody last year. Individual wins and losses are irrelevant. If they continue to book Jey like a big deal losing at WrestleMania won't hurt him. If they don't, winning at WrestleMania will be forgotten in a month.

Cody's a generational talent. Nobody else on the current WWE roster has his connection to the audience. He's the sole exception.

Plus, Cody losing to Roman - the most protected WWE wrestler this side of the millennium - is A LOT different than Jey losing to the guy who hasn't had a meaningful singles victory ever.

Individual wins and losses absolutely matter. Look at the last twenty years of guys who momentum who've had it hindered due to 50/50 booking and losing when it really mattered.

Nah, they really don't. In reality wrestling fans for the most part believe what they're seeing when it comes to wrestlers they like. If WWE want to push someone and fans want to get behind them, nobody holds the fact that they lost x match at some point in the past against them.

Shinsuke Nakamura is the poster boy for being booked as a choke artist when it comes to the big one. And yet it took basically no effort at all to get him to the point where he was a credible challenger again last year. And if he'd have won Seth's world title, people would've been delighted, they wouldn't have rejected it because he'd lost however many title shots beforehand. Nobody rejected Kofi Mania because he was a career midcarder. Austin Theory beat John Cena at WrestleMania last year and will do well to make the pre-show this year. The idea of one win or one loss making or breaking someone just isn't true.

And that's talking about some guys who actually spent long periods losing or being total afterthoughts. Not a guy in the midst of a consistent push who may lose one match in a feud he seems certain to win.

[Nosnorb]

Feb 22, 2024 18:12:33 GMT -5 stoptheclocks said:

Shinsuke Nakamura is the poster boy for being booked as a choke artist when it comes to the big one. And yet it took basically no effort at all to get him to the point where he was a credible challenger again last year. And if he'd have won Seth's world title, people would've been delighted, they wouldn't have rejected it because he'd lost however many title shots beforehand.

Before his bottle job at Payback against Seth Rollins, Nakamura last had a top title match against AJ Styles at Money in the Bank 2018. Dude was supposed to face Roman some point, but after one confrontation, WWE realised that nobody was buying Shinsuke as having a hope in hell against Reigns and pulled the plug on that program. 5 years WWE waited to put him in a top title match, and it also took a big change in the presentation of Nakamura with those promos in a redlit room. And still there were no shortage of people not buying him as a legit threat or unable to get invested in the match due to Shinsuke being booked as a bottler.

[gl83]

Feb 22, 2024 18:38:09 GMT -5 Nosnorb said:

Feb 22, 2024 18:12:33 GMT -5 stoptheclocks said:

Shinsuke Nakamura is the poster boy for being booked as a choke artist when it comes to the big one. And yet it took basically no effort at all to get him to the point where he was a credible challenger again last year. And if he'd have won Seth's world title, people would've been delighted, they wouldn't have rejected it because he'd lost however many title shots beforehand.

Before his bottle job at Payback against Seth Rollins, Nakamura last had a top title match against AJ Styles at Money in the Bank 2018. Dude was supposed to face Roman some point, but after one confrontation, WWE realised that nobody was buying Shinsuke as having a hope in hell against Reigns and pulled the plug on that program. 5 years WWE waited to put him in a top title match, and it also took a big change in the presentation of Nakamura with those promos in a redlit room. And still there were no shortage of people not buying him as a legit threat or unable to get invested in the match due to Shinsuke being booked as a bottler.

Even with the whole injury angle they were running with Seth Rollins, I don't think people bought that Shinsuke was going to win the title rather that Seth was going to lose the title via cash-in.

[Final Countdown Jones]

No shade on Nakamura, love the guy, but WWE should aspire for potential breakout stars to land a little bit higher than f***ing Shinsuke Nakamura.

[Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story]

Feb 22, 2024 15:42:53 GMT -5 Nosnorb said:

Feb 22, 2024 15:11:29 GMT -5 Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story said:

I'm honestly fine with either direction and I'm not sold that Jey losing would put him behind the 8 ball that much in the current WWE landscape. The current WWE doesn't seem to forget people after they take big losses. Chad Gable lost to Gunther twice, took a brief backseat but just scored a big win over Ivar on Monday and got cheered pretty hard.

My preference would be Jey beating Jimmy, Jey winning a singles title and Jimmy rearing his ugly head again at that point via the Draft. That said, they do kind of need to give Jimmy something. He's looked like an absolute goof this whole time and I'm not sure he even feels like competition for Jey heading into Mania. That's not good, either.

Gunther has been presented as a top star leading his own stable and a dude who is destined for the main event. Jimmy Uso is now 4th on the Bloodline Totem pole and nobody in his stable takes him seriously. Losing to Jimmy would be a lot more damaging to Jey than it was for Chad to lose to The Ring General twice. Jey really needs to start racking up the PPV wins.

Respectfully, I don't think your mindset is the mindset of most people buying tickets to the show. It's not like this is Jey losing to Jinder Mahal out of nowhere or something. Jimmy's still part of the company's biggest act.

If it was shown that the story wasn't over and the endgame was Jey getting his wins and then moving onto something after that, I don't think anyone would balk. I'm not even saying that's the direction they should go, as I said above I want Jey to win, but I don't think him losing one match to keep a blood feud going between brothers is "damaging."

[The Thread Barbi]

Well, historically at Wrestlemania, the heel won the match in brother vs brother matches

Owen Hart at WM 10
Matt Hardy at WM 25

And given that Triple H likes to use wrestling history into his booking playbook...

Also, interesting that all brother vs brother matches are exactly 15 years apart.