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Post by mountaindew on Mar 19, 2024 23:38:15 GMT -5
The first three ladder matches on pay per view were Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (twice) and Triple H vs. Rock. In those matches, there were some cool spots, but the main focus was psychology and storytelling.
Then in 1999, I forget what ppv, the Hardy Boyz wrestled Edge and Christian in a ladder match filled with awesome spots. This match, and the Triangle Ladder Match/Tag Team TLC matches shaped what most ladder matches have looked like since.
I don't like it. I much prefer the three matches in the first paragraph. I feel the constant over the top spots have cheapened this concept.
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Post by froggyfrog on Mar 20, 2024 1:09:07 GMT -5
Listen man I’m a CZW/GCW/deathmatch enjoyer. I’m all for the car crash stuff as long as the spots aren’t super telegraphed. 12 person match at Mania will be chaotic as hell and I’m here for it
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,398
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Mar 20, 2024 1:13:32 GMT -5
I'm still mad at Harley Race for killing the business with all his damn high spots, I haven't got time to get to damn ladders in the ring!
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Post by DoubleDare on Mar 20, 2024 4:03:29 GMT -5
The first three ladder matches on pay per view were Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (twice) and Triple H vs. Rock. In those matches, there were some cool spots, but the main focus was psychology and storytelling. Then in 1999, I forget what ppv, the Hardy Boyz wrestled Edge and Christian in a ladder match filled with awesome spots. This match, and the Triangle Ladder Match/Tag Team TLC matches shaped what most ladder matches have looked like since. I don't like it. I much prefer the three matches in the first paragraph. I feel the constant over the top spots have cheapened this concept. Yea No Mercy 1999 is the ppv you're thinking of. I like both styles, but the 6 person, or as we'll see at WM, 6 tag team has been done to death, in fact that original tag style, even branches off into the style we have now, I would say the first Money In The Bank match is what led to how it is now and the old tag team/triangle ladder match was a bit better. But the best will always be that first style, Jericho vs Benoit at Rumble 2001 was great.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 20, 2024 5:26:04 GMT -5
Read OP seems like a bizarre instruction
I think there is room for both types of ladder match but there is also a sweet spot in the middle. You can tell a car crash story
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,162
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Post by Bo Rida on Mar 20, 2024 7:46:35 GMT -5
No, I think the big spots worked in the tlc days because there's a semblance of strategy that comes from working in pairs.
Lots of singles wrestlers having a lay down outside due to moves that would usually struggle to get a 2 count is crap. Even more so if they don't keep the pace up so you have time to dwell of the dumbness. There's no reason to throw yourself through a table, at least in a tag there's an idea that your partner can benefit from you sacrificing yourself.
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,381
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Post by tafkaga on Mar 20, 2024 8:03:56 GMT -5
Any match that has degenerated into guys laying around for 5 minutes or more so that wrestlers can take turns doing their spots is silliness.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Mar 20, 2024 8:41:05 GMT -5
There is room for both types, but honestly I think the 'car crash' style of ladder match peaked at Wrestlemania X7.
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Post by Hulk With A Mustache on Mar 20, 2024 9:00:35 GMT -5
Spotfests can be fun, but I prefer ladder matches that tell stories. Look at the between Jeff Hardy and The Undertaker on RAW. That was a great story of a bully to respect the guy he’s been picking on because he just keeps getting up and won’t quit.
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clc
Unicron
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Post by clc on Mar 20, 2024 10:01:18 GMT -5
I like ladder matches becasue I got to see Asuka win her first (and second) main roster title from atop a ladder! But MitB is probably my third favorite event of the year (Rumble first Mania second). I think I prefer the multi-person spot fests over the one on one ladder match. If it's a one on one match, I'd rather just have a regular match. This sort of goes for all types of weapons matches. If you are doing a weapons type match, no hold's barred, etc...I'm mostly there for the wackiness and mayhem of it. I think the only weapons type match where I'm more ok with it being mostly psychological is the Heck in a Cell. One thing that bothers me about ladder matches is the speed at which one climbs the ladders. I can get behind it being slow (the more hurt you are the slower), but then you always have that one geek who has to like sprint up the ladder for a spot, which completely ruins the continuity.
(The real answer is you can have both. A spot-fest that also tells a good story)
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Post by Friday Night SmackOwn on Mar 20, 2024 10:34:31 GMT -5
Spotfests can be fun, but I prefer ladder matches that tell stories. Look at the between Jeff Hardy and The Undertaker on RAW. That was a great story of a bully to respect the guy he’s been picking on because he just keeps getting up and won’t quit. The post-match of a beaten and battered Jeff Hardy picking himself back up and still wanting to fight, only for Undertaker to show him respect remains memorable.
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Post by saneiac on Mar 20, 2024 10:45:53 GMT -5
WWE's Ladder Match DVD included a ladder match from 1979 between Jake Roberts and Junkyard Dog. The first thing you notice is they used an extension ladder rather than a folding ladder, so the ladder can't stand on its own power and the referee has to hold it the entire match. The match itself went something like this: - Jake punches JYD - JYD falls down - Jake starts climbing the ladder - JYD stands up and pulls Jake off the ladder - The two switch roles - Repeat for 20 minutes
So, yeah, I'm delighted the ladder match has evolved beyond that borefest.
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Post by Hulk With A Mustache on Mar 20, 2024 11:54:08 GMT -5
WWE's Ladder Match DVD included a ladder match from 1979 between Jake Roberts and Junkyard Dog. The first thing you notice is they used an extension ladder rather than a folding ladder, so the ladder can't stand on its own power and the referee has to hold it the entire match. The match itself went something like this: - Jake punches JYD - JYD falls down - Jake starts climbing the ladder - JYD stands up and pulls Jake off the ladder - The two switch roles - Repeat for 20 minutes So, yeah, I'm delighted the ladder match has evolved beyond that borefest. How do you feel about how it has evolved from its disco past? www.wrestlecrap.com/inductions/kendo-nagasaki-disco-ladder-match/
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,949
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Post by XIII on Mar 20, 2024 12:29:16 GMT -5
A huge part of the problem is that the WWE will always go for the cliche tropes. The same as the Hell In A Cell where the after Foley got tossed off the top suddenly there had to be a spot where someone had to fall or jump off the damn thing no matter how stupid it or nonsensical it was and only recently have people gotten away from that and brought some psychology back to it. Same with the Chamber where for the longest someone had to get blasted through the door “glass” etc.
It will ultimately be up to a couple of people to tone down the spots and bring it back to a more psychological approach. 🤷🏻♂️
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
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Post by thecrusherwi on Mar 20, 2024 14:19:04 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with the Ladder Match car crashes. They can be a lot of fun. But I do think there is much more creative potential in the Ladder Match stipulation than being the high spot spectacle that it is more often than not these days. With that being said, they've set some expectations as to what a Ladder Match is and if they had one that was more slow paced and didn't have the traditional Ladder spots, a lot of fans might be disappointed. It's like the first few Hell in a Cell Matches where guys didn't fight on and/or fall off the top. A lot of fans called those matches boring. It took a while before people stopped expecting those spots in a HIAC match. Some STILL do. So I think you can have the high spots and spectacle while still having good psychology and story telling. The HBK/Jericho one in 2008 is a good example. Maybe they just need to get away from viewing the ladder match as an easy way to get a whole bunch of guys on the card in one match and book more singles Ladder Matches again. I don't know. A huge part of the problem is that the WWE will always go for the cliche tropes. The same as the Hell In A Cell where the after Foley got tossed off the top suddenly there had to be a spot where someone had to fall or jump off the damn thing no matter how stupid it or nonsensical it was and only recently have people gotten away from that and brought some psychology back to it. Same with the Chamber where for the longest someone had to get blasted through the door “glass” etc. It will ultimately be up to a couple of people to tone down the spots and bring it back to a more psychological approach. 🤷🏻♂️ I had my answer mostly written out when I saw you largely said the same thing as I was going to say. I agree and think it's just about going out there and having different types of ladder matches and set fan expectations.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Mar 20, 2024 14:23:32 GMT -5
Look, I can get great stories and physcology in loads of other matches. Ladder matches I go to for my car crashes damnit.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Mar 20, 2024 14:45:11 GMT -5
I need some car crash sometimes. Pure spotfest nonsense. People doing insane things that look insane and are insane and pop the crowd for being insane.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Mar 20, 2024 14:49:57 GMT -5
They've not evolved enough. We're overdue ladderless ladder matches, and I ain't talking no Ultimate X nonsense here — I wanna see the likes to Bronson Reed trying to bunnyhop a belt on a makeshift office chair contraption.
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Post by wallabylikeyou on Mar 21, 2024 3:46:09 GMT -5
If you're talking classic one-on-one ladder matches, sure most people are gonna think of Shawn and Razor. But I think;
"How you gonna climb a ladder with one arm Dean?"
"How you gonna climb a ladder with one arm Dean?"
"How you gonna climb a ladder with one arm Dean?"
"How you gonna climb a ladder with one arm Dean?"
"How you gonna climb a ladder with one arm Dean?"
"How you gonna climb a ladder with one arm Dean?"
"How you gonna climb a ladder with one arm Dean?"
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,269
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Post by chazraps on Mar 21, 2024 9:35:51 GMT -5
The psychology did immediately go out the window in the Summerslam '95 ladder match. They were (kayfabe) told they couldn't use the ladder as a weapon, the build and commentary repeated that they couldn't use the ladder as a weapon, then Shawn starts using the ladder as a weapon and commentary has to quickly cover for him, explaining how his hitting Razor with a ladder somehow wasn't "using it as a weapon." While not the demolition derby that TLC matches became, I don't think one can fault an absence of psychology when by the second pay-per-view match it was launched out of there by the two people who put it there in the first place. And you still have so many variants on approaches to the ladder match today that I don't think you can make the claim that the concept has been cheapened. TLC matches are largely their own separate thing where a feud has gotten toa. point where psychologically it makes sense that the parties involved want to throw everything that they can at each other. The multi-person Mania ladder matches it makes sense that the heels or the rougher faces want to introduce additional elements to help their odds of being the one to climb the ladder. But you also have the ladder matches like Jericho-Michaels or the excellent Armageddon 2006 ladder match where the psychology was all geared around being the very first to climb the ladder a la Bret-Owen's approach to the cage match at Summerslam 94. So, in conclusion to the OP that I've indeed read , I think it's a misnomer to suggest the No Mercy 99 ladder match was a straight-line trajectory to every ladder match we have today as if the concept hasn't taken many different forms over the years that's had equally great psychology.
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