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Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 6, 2024 1:59:38 GMT -5
Anyone voting for TK should have to explain themselves. AEW is drawing more than ECW could ever dream of. Even in their height of popularity ECW had shows with very small crowds. Not to mention AEW talent getting paid and TK actually having a network wanting to continue to work with him. I didn't vote for TK, I didn't vote for either of them as I think it's two totally different situations. For anyone who follows football, it's like comparing whoever owned Bury FC (lower league football club who went bust) with Sheik Mansour of Manchester City (best team in the world entirely bankrolled by UAE money). TK's personal wealth is allowing him to underwrite all of AEW's losses and buy one of the best rosters in wrestling history. So yeah, they have bigger crowds and are a bigger company than ECW ever was, but they're also losing more money than ECW ever did. That's not a criticism of Tony, he's just playing the hand he's been dealt. But you can't separate him from his situation and compare him to people who don't have actual billions to fund their passion projects. It's impossible to say he's a good or bad businessman or if he would've done a better job if handed ECW in 1993.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,975
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Post by chazraps on Apr 6, 2024 2:22:35 GMT -5
Anyone voting for TK should have to explain themselves. AEW is drawing more than ECW could ever dream of. Even in their height of popularity ECW had shows with very small crowds. Not to mention AEW talent getting paid and TK actually having a network wanting to continue to work with him. I didn't vote for TK, I didn't vote for either of them as I think it's two totally different situations. For anyone who follows football, it's like comparing whoever owned Bury FC (lower league football club who went bust) with Sheik Mansour of Manchester City (best team in the world entirely bankrolled by UAE money). TK's personal wealth is allowing him to underwrite all of AEW's losses and buy one of the best rosters in wrestling history. So yeah, they have bigger crowds and are a bigger company than ECW ever was, but they're also losing more money than ECW ever did. That's not a criticism of Tony, he's just playing the hand he's been dealt. But you can't separate him from his situation and compare him to people who don't have actual billions to fund their passion projects. It's impossible to say he's a good or bad businessman or if he would've done a better job if handed ECW in 1993. But Tony has shown so much more beyond being the guy with a lot of money. He doesn't repeat mistakes. The post-Acclaim ECW '99 Heyman shit doesn't happen with Tony.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Apr 6, 2024 4:05:19 GMT -5
Khan has Billions, Heyman definitely didn't have anything like that so it's not a very fair comparison His family had enough wealth they could afford to loan him nearly 4 million dollars to keep ECW running, which was back in the pre billionaire days when that was a huge amount of money. Not a billionaire maybe, but the spoiled, comes from money yuppie character he portrayed as manager wasn't far from the truth.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Apr 6, 2024 4:35:27 GMT -5
Anyone voting for TK should have to explain themselves. AEW is drawing more than ECW could ever dream of. Even in their height of popularity ECW had shows with very small crowds. Not to mention AEW talent getting paid and TK actually having a network wanting to continue to work with him. I didn't vote for TK, I didn't vote for either of them as I think it's two totally different situations. For anyone who follows football, it's like comparing whoever owned Bury FC (lower league football club who went bust) with Sheik Mansour of Manchester City (best team in the world entirely bankrolled by UAE money). TK's personal wealth is allowing him to underwrite all of AEW's losses and buy one of the best rosters in wrestling history. So yeah, they have bigger crowds and are a bigger company than ECW ever was, but they're also losing more money than ECW ever did. That's not a criticism of Tony, he's just playing the hand he's been dealt. But you can't separate him from his situation and compare him to people who don't have actual billions to fund their passion projects. It's impossible to say he's a good or bad businessman or if he would've done a better job if handed ECW in 1993. Businesses this size lose money for a long time. Uber has never made a profit in the years it has been in business. ECW lost money as well. They lost less total but I bet if you compared losses to company size they are probably pretty close proportionally. Difference is AEW can cover it and wont resort to asking employees to work for free, pay for company expenses out of pocket, or even steal their credit cards. Seriously. Heymanwas not running a business. He was running a cult. He lied, cheated, and stole from the people that believed in him and left them high, dry, and emotionally devastated.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 6, 2024 6:31:54 GMT -5
I didn't vote for TK, I didn't vote for either of them as I think it's two totally different situations. For anyone who follows football, it's like comparing whoever owned Bury FC (lower league football club who went bust) with Sheik Mansour of Manchester City (best team in the world entirely bankrolled by UAE money). TK's personal wealth is allowing him to underwrite all of AEW's losses and buy one of the best rosters in wrestling history. So yeah, they have bigger crowds and are a bigger company than ECW ever was, but they're also losing more money than ECW ever did. That's not a criticism of Tony, he's just playing the hand he's been dealt. But you can't separate him from his situation and compare him to people who don't have actual billions to fund their passion projects. It's impossible to say he's a good or bad businessman or if he would've done a better job if handed ECW in 1993. Businesses this size lose money for a long time. Uber has never made a profit in the years it has been in business. ECW lost money as well. They lost less total but I bet if you compared losses to company size they are probably pretty close proportionally. Difference is AEW can cover it and wont resort to asking employees to work for free, pay for company expenses out of pocket, or even steal their credit cards. Seriously. Heymanwas not running a business. He was running a cult. He lied, cheated, and stole from the people that believed in him and left them high, dry, and emotionally devastated. Of course, but that's largely the point I was making to the poster I quoted. AEW is far bigger and more popular than ECW ever was, sure, but their resources (and losses) are also enormous in comparison. The fact AEW can cover it is down to the business acumen of Shahid Khan, not his son. Again, that doesn't mean they're being run badly, it's just a unique circumstance compared to almost any other business. To posit what Paul Heyman would've done if his Dad was worth 12 billion, or what Tony Khan would do if he didn't have limitless money... is just so hypothetical I don't even know where you'd start. Who is a nicer guy? Well he's shown his ass a bit this week, but still Tony. But the businesses they've run... it's not even apples and oranges, it's like comparing a fish and a golf ball.
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wankah
Don Corleone
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Post by wankah on Apr 6, 2024 7:05:58 GMT -5
It is a case of who's dad had more money in a way. However, I can't see Khan ever lying about checks on the way with false ups codes or having people suffer because of believing in his cult.
So, back to business, guess Heyman? Always found a way to survive.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Apr 6, 2024 7:18:29 GMT -5
I really wish people would stop attributing all of Tony's success in business to actually being Shahid's doing. yes, his dad being one of the richest people on the planet is certainly a leg up, but Tony isnt some babe in the woods who doesnt understand business or anything like that. dude's owned and run sports franchises successfully for years.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 6, 2024 9:00:35 GMT -5
I really wish people would stop attributing all of Tony's success in business to actually being Shahid's doing. yes, his dad being one of the richest people on the planet is certainly a leg up, but Tony isnt some babe in the woods who doesnt understand business or anything like that. dude's owned and run sports franchises successfully for years. I don't want to sound like I've got it in for the guy but neither of those sports franchises (presuming we're talking Fulham and the Jaguars) are owned or run by Tony Khan.
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wankah
Don Corleone
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Post by wankah on Apr 6, 2024 11:30:36 GMT -5
I really wish people would stop attributing all of Tony's success in business to actually being Shahid's doing. yes, his dad being one of the richest people on the planet is certainly a leg up, but Tony isnt some babe in the woods who doesnt understand business or anything like that. dude's owned and run sports franchises successfully for years. Fulham's still shit.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 6, 2024 12:26:38 GMT -5
Tony's biggest success outside wrestling is TruMedia. It's a sports analytics firm used by ESPN, the NFL, and several MLB teams among others.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Apr 6, 2024 12:27:17 GMT -5
How is this a real question?
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Apr 6, 2024 12:59:01 GMT -5
How is this a real question? Because a bunch of old jackasses who are only relevant due to podcasting are upset that they weren't hired by TK, so they convinced a lot of people that he's the worst person on the planet
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Post by Feyrhausen on Apr 7, 2024 14:14:46 GMT -5
Businesses this size lose money for a long time. Uber has never made a profit in the years it has been in business. ECW lost money as well. They lost less total but I bet if you compared losses to company size they are probably pretty close proportionally. Difference is AEW can cover it and wont resort to asking employees to work for free, pay for company expenses out of pocket, or even steal their credit cards. Seriously. Heymanwas not running a business. He was running a cult. He lied, cheated, and stole from the people that believed in him and left them high, dry, and emotionally devastated. Of course, but that's largely the point I was making to the poster I quoted. AEW is far bigger and more popular than ECW ever was, sure, but their resources (and losses) are also enormous in comparison. The fact AEW can cover it is down to the business acumen of Shahid Khan, not his son. Again, that doesn't mean they're being run badly, it's just a unique circumstance compared to almost any other business. To posit what Paul Heyman would've done if his Dad was worth 12 billion, or what Tony Khan would do if he didn't have limitless money... is just so hypothetical I don't even know where you'd start. Who is a nicer guy? Well he's shown his ass a bit this week, but still Tony. But the businesses they've run... it's not even apples and oranges, it's like comparing a fish and a golf ball. The point being that a startup company plans to lose money while they get established. When TK wrote up his business plan he no doubt had a pretty good idea how much money he would lose and for how long. And if he lost more than anticipated how much he would lose before closing up shop. Because thats what a good businessman does. Makes a business plan. Nowhere in his business plan was stealing from and not paying employees. Or making an enemy of the network willing to give you TV. Or any number of other insane things that didnt make sense then and with hindsight look even more insane. Fact is that there were three distinct eras of how you made money in wrestling. Pre and early 80s was live gate with TV as advertising for live shows. Late 80s, 90s, and early 00s was PPV was your main cash with live gate, TV rights, and merchandise as your bonus. Starting in the 00s and 10s TV rights became the big money with streaming replacing PPV and the other two mostly the same. Heyman took over an ECW that was regional and niche with live gate being his only real income. He tried to go national using what basically amounted to word of mouth (magazines, early internet, and other smark methods) without having the income to support it. When he had successes he blew his wad and never saved for that rainy day. He had no plan, no backup, and no real hope. And the people that still consider him some genius that was sunk by factors being his control remind me of the Snyder cult. Heyman was his own worst enemy, and his failurea are his own.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 7, 2024 14:25:15 GMT -5
Even if Tony Khan isn't a good businessman, this is so much more about how godawful of one Heyman was running ECW.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Apr 7, 2024 15:11:30 GMT -5
Of course, but that's largely the point I was making to the poster I quoted. AEW is far bigger and more popular than ECW ever was, sure, but their resources (and losses) are also enormous in comparison. The fact AEW can cover it is down to the business acumen of Shahid Khan, not his son. Again, that doesn't mean they're being run badly, it's just a unique circumstance compared to almost any other business. To posit what Paul Heyman would've done if his Dad was worth 12 billion, or what Tony Khan would do if he didn't have limitless money... is just so hypothetical I don't even know where you'd start. Who is a nicer guy? Well he's shown his ass a bit this week, but still Tony. But the businesses they've run... it's not even apples and oranges, it's like comparing a fish and a golf ball. The point being that a startup company plans to lose money while they get established. When TK wrote up his business plan he no doubt had a pretty good idea how much money he would lose and for how long. And if he lost more than anticipated how much he would lose before closing up shop. Because thats what a good businessman does. Makes a business plan. Nowhere in his business plan was stealing from and not paying employees. Or making an enemy of the network willing to give you TV. Or any number of other insane things that didnt make sense then and with hindsight look even more insane. Fact is that there were three distinct eras of how you made money in wrestling. Pre and early 80s was live gate with TV as advertising for live shows. Late 80s, 90s, and early 00s was PPV was your main cash with live gate, TV rights, and merchandise as your bonus. Starting in the 00s and 10s TV rights became the big money with streaming replacing PPV and the other two mostly the same. Heyman took over an ECW that was regional and niche with live gate being his only real income. He tried to go national using what basically amounted to word of mouth (magazines, early internet, and other smark methods) without having the income to support it. When he had successes he blew his wad and never saved for that rainy day. He had no plan, no backup, and no real hope. And the people that still consider him some genius that was sunk by factors being his control remind me of the Snyder cult. Heyman was his own worst enemy, and his failurea are his own. Tony literally said the other day that he's spent more money than he wanted to this year but yolo, he's still going to go big on any future free agents. The dude has the cheat code of unlimited money, he's not sitting there fretting about his business plan. Surely you don't believe Paul Heyman set out to do those things? They were (poor) reactions to circumstances Tony will never have to face barring some collapse of his dad's wealth.
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Post by eJm on Apr 7, 2024 15:30:32 GMT -5
Even if Tony Khan isn't a good businessman, this is so much more about how godawful of one Heyman was running ECW. Basically, yeah. Put it this way, I can imagine TK doing better with the money and exposure Heyman had in trying to get ECW to a higher status. I’m terrified to think how much debt Heyman would be in if he had TK’s money and exposure. I’m 99% sure the Philadelphia Bankruptcy Court would be renamed “The Paul Heyman Memorial Bankruptcy Court” in his honor and he wouldn’t even need to die.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Apr 7, 2024 15:57:16 GMT -5
The point being that a startup company plans to lose money while they get established. When TK wrote up his business plan he no doubt had a pretty good idea how much money he would lose and for how long. And if he lost more than anticipated how much he would lose before closing up shop. Because thats what a good businessman does. Makes a business plan. Nowhere in his business plan was stealing from and not paying employees. Or making an enemy of the network willing to give you TV. Or any number of other insane things that didnt make sense then and with hindsight look even more insane. Fact is that there were three distinct eras of how you made money in wrestling. Pre and early 80s was live gate with TV as advertising for live shows. Late 80s, 90s, and early 00s was PPV was your main cash with live gate, TV rights, and merchandise as your bonus. Starting in the 00s and 10s TV rights became the big money with streaming replacing PPV and the other two mostly the same. Heyman took over an ECW that was regional and niche with live gate being his only real income. He tried to go national using what basically amounted to word of mouth (magazines, early internet, and other smark methods) without having the income to support it. When he had successes he blew his wad and never saved for that rainy day. He had no plan, no backup, and no real hope. And the people that still consider him some genius that was sunk by factors being his control remind me of the Snyder cult. Heyman was his own worst enemy, and his failurea are his own. Tony literally said the other day that he's spent more money than he wanted to this year but yolo, he's still going to go big on any future free agents. The dude has the cheat code of unlimited money, he's not sitting there fretting about his business plan. Surely you don't believe Paul Heyman set out to do those things? They were (poor) reactions to circumstances Tony will never have to face barring some collapse of his dad's wealth. They were poor reactions? No they were criminal acts. Using an employees credit carc without their knowledge? Employees working for no payment? Criminal. This entire thread is wrong from the start. Paul Heyman was not a businessman. He was a carny who got his hands on a wrestling company and drove it into the ground with his stupidity.
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BlackoutCreature
Grimlock
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Posts: 14,485
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Apr 7, 2024 16:11:44 GMT -5
I know Jim Cornette is not a popular guy among a lot of people around here, and I'm not gonna defend him, he's said a lot of stupid and offensive things. But one thing he's said that I absolutely believe is this little story about Heyman and ECW's finances. Cornette claims that if he ran SMW exactly the same way as he did in the same towns and buildings with the same talents and pay-offs, only did not charge a single cent for tickets or merchandise or whatnot, he still would not have lost as much money running SMW as Paul Heyman did running ECW. So for all the bad decisions that Tony Khan might've made, I don't see how you can put him at that level.
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Post by eJm on Apr 7, 2024 16:27:52 GMT -5
Surely you don't believe Paul Heyman set out to do those things? They were (poor) reactions to circumstances Tony will never have to face barring some collapse of his dad's wealth. I mean, whether he set out to do what he did is besides the point of the fact he did those things. He didn’t pay people, he snubbed partners, he literally used other credit cards to pay his debts. He did everything he could to get as much money through bankruptcy court. There are dozens, hundreds and thousands of business owners who haven’t done any of those things and they likely have their own struggles to go through so it’s hard for me to feel bad for him when I can go outside my house and walk to them and not feel like they’ve pissed off the people they’re renting the space from or taken advantage of their workers.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 27,975
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Post by chazraps on Apr 7, 2024 16:35:55 GMT -5
Tony literally said the other day that he's spent more money than he wanted to this year but yolo, he's still going to go big on any future free agents. The dude has the cheat code of unlimited money, he's not sitting there fretting about his business plan. Surely you don't believe Paul Heyman set out to do those things? They were (poor) reactions to circumstances Tony will never have to face barring some collapse of his dad's wealth. I know this is a very tough (some would say EXTREMEly tough) pill to swallow, but Paul absolutely did. If you really want to compare "cheat codes" - look at Acclaim wiping out ECW's entire debt when they purchased part of the company back in 1999. ECW had a blank slate with a TV deal and toy deal on the horizon - and Paul goes out of his way to keep f***ing over all of his partners and making the same mistakes again. I'd wager to guess most people who get a second chance at a crumbling business wouldn't go right back to making the same mistakes within the same calendar year - but that's exactly what Paul did. It's why I suspect he has a very self-destructive core in the most unsexy way. The not working with any of the crew or extra broadcast slots TNN were willing to give him - there's no logical remotely respectable or understandable business approach where that would make any, any *any* sense. If you look at the bankruptcy court filings, the contemporary television industry trade coverage, or really any source that isn't a WWE or Heyman owned rehabbing of his image, he was a businessman whose primary business was making sure he himself never looked like the guy who f***ed up and f***ed over. But the paper trail always goes back to him.
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