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Post by daaave on Apr 23, 2024 12:29:39 GMT -5
This is likely the 1st of at least 2 or a trilogy of matches between Danielson & Ospreay. I'm not sure it's fair to compare the 'story' to something like Flair/HBK. What we got Sunday was Act 1 Which is admittedly why I'm a bit surprised Ospreay won; I thought they might have Danielson win to build to a rematch where the story is how Ospreay's able to adapt his game to win. Then again, if they want to hold off on Ospreay winning the big one at Wembley until next year, they could have a rematch in early summer, have Danielson win, then have the rubber match in London, I suppose. And yeah, the match was fantastic. I can't say it surpasses some of my favorite NJPW ones over the past near-decade, but it was excellent and left me wanting more. The rubber at Wembley is what I'm starting to think. You can have determined Danielson win a rematch on a big Dynamite. Tell the story that maybe Ospreay doubts him after injury he caused. Then for the rubber build back up the heat and bill it as "this time there will be no holding back, they are gonna kill eachother"
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 23, 2024 12:34:51 GMT -5
Sure, if that’s good enough for a story/build/stakes for you then that’s good enough for you. Not taking it away from you. For me personally, I wasn’t as invested as when there is a story or stakes I can sink my teeth into. HBK/Angle at Mania was great but I felt a lot more watching HBK/Taker because of the story and stakes. The story was ready made, you've got two guys who have never met face to face who both have a claim to being the best in the world finally meeting in the ring to settle it. I mean, that's literally the bread and butter of combat sports which when you take away the pomp and circumstance is still the roots of Pro Wrestling. And it was an excellent wrestling match. I’m just saying I need more to take it into the territory of greatest matches of all time for me. I understand that’s not everyone’s view of things. I’m sure Angle/HBK is technically a better wrestled match than Taker/HBK but I still would rank Taker/HBK higher because of the stakes (the Streak).
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Post by sarkerpolseng on Apr 23, 2024 14:37:14 GMT -5
It was fantastic, but it wasn't even the best AEW match ever.
I liked Swerve/Hangman Death Match from a few months ago, and I am not even a huge hard-core wrestling fan.
I think it is just as good as Takeshita/Osprey.
This match is awesome though.
Just a little cold going in.
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Post by lockedontarget on Apr 23, 2024 15:04:04 GMT -5
I've let this sit with me a few days, and if you loved this match and thought it was one of the greatest matches of all time, that's cool. It was a very good match with some fantastic sequences. It's just...man I'm so tired of what I call 'dream match' booking, which I find lazy and counterintuitive to the beauty of professional wrestling promotion. We've seen a lot with Danielson in the last year- his AEW matches with Okada, ZSJ and now Ospreay being built as 'oh the match between these two will be incredible' and that's...it for the build? This isn't 'I'm better than you', its 'I put on better wrestling matches than you' and it just makes everything feel so fake. Then you've Justin Roberts announcing it as a 'dream match', the fans doing lame as shit chants on command and not really in conjunction with the flow of the match; it just makes it so hard for me to get into. Honestly this stuff started with Kenny and his whole 'best bout machine' persona but it has gotten OBNOXIOUS with Ospreay. The entire presentation is 'I have the best matches', NOT 'I am the best wrestler'. Something that makes me majorly disconnect from these matches. Like every match is an attempt to get a load of stars from journalists and match reviewers and crowd chants. The fact the second this match finished you've people raving its 'the greatest match ever done in America', its all so annoying to me. The whole finish of this match and the aftermath plays into my stance as well. Ospreay is upset a move, that he uses to WIN WRESTLING MATCHES, has injured an opponent? That implies he doesn't want to injure an opponent? That kind of implies you trying to protect your opponent and so the entire kayfabe of a wrestling match breaks apart. I dunno, look, maybe its just me and I'm overthinking this, but its a major bugbear of mine in modern wrestling and the reaction to this match is a microcosm of it all for me. The bell to bell action is very good, I just hate everything that goes before, after and outside the ring during it, is my best summation. This is like, objectively wrong, though. Like, your comment here makes it seem like you didn’t actually watch the build. They did not want to face each other because they think they have the best matches. They wanted to face each other because they both think they are the best. They cut a bunch of passionate promos about it. You are confusing the reason fans were excited with the reason they wanted to fight in kayfabe. Also there WAS a story beyond that. Don sees Will as his star attraction, and wants him to beat the best so he can claim he represents the new best. So he does underhanded shit behind Will’s back to try and guarantee the win. But Will respects Bryan, he wants to beat him in a fair and honorable contest, not hurt him and screw him over. It’s a larger part of the slow burn story of Will breaking away from Don.
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Sam Punk
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Sam Punk on Apr 23, 2024 15:35:18 GMT -5
It was way better than that.
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clifford
King Koopa
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Post by clifford on Apr 23, 2024 17:30:42 GMT -5
I've let this sit with me a few days, and if you loved this match and thought it was one of the greatest matches of all time, that's cool. It was a very good match with some fantastic sequences. It's just...man I'm so tired of what I call 'dream match' booking, which I find lazy and counterintuitive to the beauty of professional wrestling promotion. We've seen a lot with Danielson in the last year- his AEW matches with Okada, ZSJ and now Ospreay being built as 'oh the match between these two will be incredible' and that's...it for the build? This isn't 'I'm better than you', its 'I put on better wrestling matches than you' and it just makes everything feel so fake. Then you've Justin Roberts announcing it as a 'dream match', the fans doing lame as shit chants on command and not really in conjunction with the flow of the match; it just makes it so hard for me to get into. Honestly this stuff started with Kenny and his whole 'best bout machine' persona but it has gotten OBNOXIOUS with Ospreay. The entire presentation is 'I have the best matches', NOT 'I am the best wrestler'. Something that makes me majorly disconnect from these matches. Like every match is an attempt to get a load of stars from journalists and match reviewers and crowd chants. The fact the second this match finished you've people raving its 'the greatest match ever done in America', its all so annoying to me. The whole finish of this match and the aftermath plays into my stance as well. Ospreay is upset a move, that he uses to WIN WRESTLING MATCHES, has injured an opponent? That implies he doesn't want to injure an opponent? That kind of implies you trying to protect your opponent and so the entire kayfabe of a wrestling match breaks apart. I dunno, look, maybe its just me and I'm overthinking this, but its a major bugbear of mine in modern wrestling and the reaction to this match is a microcosm of it all for me. The bell to bell action is very good, I just hate everything that goes before, after and outside the ring during it, is my best summation. This is like, objectively wrong, though. Like, your comment here makes it seem like you didn’t actually watch the build. They did not want to face each other because they think they have the best matches. They wanted to face each other because they both think they are the best. They cut a bunch of passionate promos about it. You are confusing the reason fans were excited with the reason they wanted to fight in kayfabe. Also there WAS a story beyond that. Don sees Will as his star attraction, and wants him to beat the best so he can claim he represents the new best. So he does underhanded shit behind Will’s back to try and guarantee the win. But Will respects Bryan, he wants to beat him in a fair and honorable contest, not hurt him and screw him over. It’s a larger part of the slow burn story of Will breaking away from Don. Thanks for a thoughtful response. I did watch the build. I agree that the responses of those outside Danielson and Ospreay (fans, commentators, reactors online) cloud and alter my perception of the match and its build as a whole. Like I said, bell to bell, it was very good. However personally it wasn't even my favourite match of the night and to see it get such high praise gets me a bit miffed. Its a trend I've had with Ospreay matches the last year or so and I'll admit I'm biased against him. I'm not trying to take away from anyone's enjoyment of the match, I'm just saying it isn't for me (to that degree) and I don't like the direction I see a lot of wrestling fans go down in regards to the criteria of what makes a wrestler 'the best in the world'. I guess I just hate the moniker and its ilk. I'm not trying to be a Raj Giri type and say all matches need a story and a hook. I feel like pro wrestling is best when its just two dudes (or gals) trying to beat the ever loving shit out of each other. That's what resonates with me. The whole 'this is a DREAAAMMMM match' from the ring announcer, the crowd feeling inorganic, the fawning immediately afterwards. It's like, can't people just go out and have a f***ing really good match? Why do we always need to hype shit up like this. Anyway.
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Post by mrpeacock on Apr 23, 2024 17:46:15 GMT -5
Sure, if that’s good enough for a story/build/stakes for you then that’s good enough for you. Not taking it away from you. For me personally, I wasn’t as invested as when there is a story or stakes I can sink my teeth into. HBK/Angle at Mania was great but I felt a lot more watching HBK/Taker because of the story and stakes. The story was ready made, you've got two guys who have never met face to face who both have a claim to being the best in the world finally meeting in the ring to settle it. I mean, that's literally the bread and butter of combat sports which when you take away the pomp and circumstance is still the roots of Pro Wrestling. In Kayfabe I don’t think Danielson has any right to being best in the world right now. He’s lost all his big matches recently to Osprey, Okada and ZSJ who all could have claim to being BITW. He also dropped 2 in row to Eddie Kingston. He’s not winless of course but in kayfabe he’s been surpassed as being a current Best in the World worker.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Apr 23, 2024 17:56:02 GMT -5
Absolutely fabulous match. While I still give a slight personal preference nod to the Takeshita match (my MOTY which I thought was flawless and as good of a match as you're ever going to see), this was still a five star affair with a perfect atmosphere and an outstanding build to "two gunslingers bringing out their best for a showdown"-type wrestling.
Since I think Bryan-McGuinness is a lock for Wembley, I think Osprey challenges for the world title at All In.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Apr 23, 2024 18:16:35 GMT -5
The story was ready made, you've got two guys who have never met face to face who both have a claim to being the best in the world finally meeting in the ring to settle it. I mean, that's literally the bread and butter of combat sports which when you take away the pomp and circumstance is still the roots of Pro Wrestling. In Kayfabe I don’t think Danielson has any right to being best in the world right now. He’s lost all his big matches recently to Osprey, Okada and ZSJ who all could have claim to being BITW. He also dropped 2 in row to Eddie Kingston. He’s not winless of course but in kayfabe he’s been surpassed as being a current Best in the World worker. I think it's a Shawn Michaels Mr. Wrestlemania thing were it's about match quality, not win/loss record. He's lost something like 20 title matches in a row going back years from WWE title to AEW title and even NXT/ROH titles so in kayfabe he wouldn't have had a claim to being best in the world in quite a while. Like HBK from 03-08 had a bunch of world title matches and always lost but he'd still be talked up as one of the best because of the matches he'd have. Like an experienced boxer who still has a reputation for having exciting fights but no one really expects them to win the biggest fights anymore.
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bog
ALF
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Post by bog on Apr 23, 2024 19:18:28 GMT -5
This is like, objectively wrong, though. Like, your comment here makes it seem like you didn’t actually watch the build. They did not want to face each other because they think they have the best matches. They wanted to face each other because they both think they are the best. They cut a bunch of passionate promos about it. You are confusing the reason fans were excited with the reason they wanted to fight in kayfabe. Also there WAS a story beyond that. Don sees Will as his star attraction, and wants him to beat the best so he can claim he represents the new best. So he does underhanded shit behind Will’s back to try and guarantee the win. But Will respects Bryan, he wants to beat him in a fair and honorable contest, not hurt him and screw him over. It’s a larger part of the slow burn story of Will breaking away from Don. Thanks for a thoughtful response. I did watch the build. I agree that the responses of those outside Danielson and Ospreay (fans, commentators, reactors online) cloud and alter my perception of the match and its build as a whole. Like I said, bell to bell, it was very good. However personally it wasn't even my favourite match of the night and to see it get such high praise gets me a bit miffed. Its a trend I've had with Ospreay matches the last year or so and I'll admit I'm biased against him. I'm not trying to take away from anyone's enjoyment of the match, I'm just saying it isn't for me (to that degree) and I don't like the direction I see a lot of wrestling fans go down in regards to the criteria of what makes a wrestler 'the best in the world'. I guess I just hate the moniker and its ilk. I'm not trying to be a Raj Giri type and say all matches need a story and a hook. I feel like pro wrestling is best when its just two dudes (or gals) trying to beat the ever loving shit out of each other. That's what resonates with me. The whole 'this is a DREAAAMMMM match' from the ring announcer, the crowd feeling inorganic, the fawning immediately afterwards. It's like, can't people just go out and have a f***ing really good match? Why do we always need to hype shit up like this. Anyway. Loved the match but absolutely understand the critique. The crowd was a bit much and announcing it as a dream match was a little silly. Kinda reminds me when Edge and Orton had THE GREATEST WRESTLING MATCH EVER (tm)
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bog
ALF
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Post by bog on Apr 23, 2024 19:29:58 GMT -5
To answer OP's question, I think it lived up to the expectation set before the match.
But it's not my favorite AEW match...it is in the top 5, though
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Apr 23, 2024 19:42:22 GMT -5
I loved it and am probably the definition of target audience but announcing a dream match during the intro has to be ditched ASAP
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bdon
Mike the Goon
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Post by bdon on Apr 23, 2024 20:03:40 GMT -5
It was fantastic, but it wasn't even the best AEW match ever. I liked Swerve/Hangman Death Match from a few months ago, and I am not even a huge hard-core wrestling fan. I think it is just as good as Takeshita/Osprey. This match is awesome though. Just a little cold going in. Bingo. Takeshita and Ospreay just a little over a month ago is right there with this one, and no one was claiming it the best match ever. This one is only getting propped a half star or full star higher, because it is Bryan’s last year and everyone knows he’s never had a 6 star match. And Dave’s star ratings need validation. Hell, Hangman/Omega vs The Bucks was a better match in my eyes.
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bdon
Mike the Goon
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Post by bdon on Apr 23, 2024 20:08:21 GMT -5
This is like, objectively wrong, though. Like, your comment here makes it seem like you didn’t actually watch the build. They did not want to face each other because they think they have the best matches. They wanted to face each other because they both think they are the best. They cut a bunch of passionate promos about it. You are confusing the reason fans were excited with the reason they wanted to fight in kayfabe. Also there WAS a story beyond that. Don sees Will as his star attraction, and wants him to beat the best so he can claim he represents the new best. So he does underhanded shit behind Will’s back to try and guarantee the win. But Will respects Bryan, he wants to beat him in a fair and honorable contest, not hurt him and screw him over. It’s a larger part of the slow burn story of Will breaking away from Don. Thanks for a thoughtful response. I did watch the build. I agree that the responses of those outside Danielson and Ospreay (fans, commentators, reactors online) cloud and alter my perception of the match and its build as a whole. Like I said, bell to bell, it was very good. However personally it wasn't even my favourite match of the night and to see it get such high praise gets me a bit miffed. Its a trend I've had with Ospreay matches the last year or so and I'll admit I'm biased against him. I'm not trying to take away from anyone's enjoyment of the match, I'm just saying it isn't for me (to that degree) and I don't like the direction I see a lot of wrestling fans go down in regards to the criteria of what makes a wrestler 'the best in the world'. I guess I just hate the moniker and its ilk. I'm not trying to be a Raj Giri type and say all matches need a story and a hook. I feel like pro wrestling is best when its just two dudes (or gals) trying to beat the ever loving shit out of each other. That's what resonates with me. The whole 'this is a DREAAAMMMM match' from the ring announcer, the crowd feeling inorganic, the fawning immediately afterwards. It's like, can't people just go out and have a f***ing really good match? Why do we always need to hype shit up like this. Anyway. They have been hyping every Bryan match as a dream match for a year, and he hasn’t really delivered a truly great match aside from the MJF one. Being that he stood opposite of Will, then you better prop up this match as one of the 2-3 best matches ever since no one else is going to give Bryan a better match. Everyone was hyping the matches with Okada, because “if KENNY can have 7 stars, what will Bryan do with Okada!?” And they found out that Bryan just ain’t on Omega’s level when it comes to big match wrestling.
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bdon
Mike the Goon
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Post by bdon on Apr 23, 2024 20:10:01 GMT -5
Absolutely fabulous match. While I still give a slight personal preference nod to the Takeshita match (my MOTY which I thought was flawless and as good of a match as you're ever going to see), this was still a five star affair with a perfect atmosphere and an outstanding build to "two gunslingers bringing out their best for a showdown"-type wrestling. Since I think Bryan-McGuinness is a lock for Wembley, I think Osprey challenges for the world title at All In. Same. 5 stars, maybe 5.25 because “Ospreay”, but it isn’t one of the 5-6 best matches ever. It just isn’t. Great, great match though.
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FHgrad99
Vegeta
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Post by FHgrad99 on Apr 23, 2024 21:56:28 GMT -5
Jim Cornette even liked this match, and he never thought highly of Will Osprey.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Apr 23, 2024 22:31:18 GMT -5
Thanks for a thoughtful response. I did watch the build. I agree that the responses of those outside Danielson and Ospreay (fans, commentators, reactors online) cloud and alter my perception of the match and its build as a whole. Like I said, bell to bell, it was very good. However personally it wasn't even my favourite match of the night and to see it get such high praise gets me a bit miffed. Its a trend I've had with Ospreay matches the last year or so and I'll admit I'm biased against him. I'm not trying to take away from anyone's enjoyment of the match, I'm just saying it isn't for me (to that degree) and I don't like the direction I see a lot of wrestling fans go down in regards to the criteria of what makes a wrestler 'the best in the world'. I guess I just hate the moniker and its ilk. I'm not trying to be a Raj Giri type and say all matches need a story and a hook. I feel like pro wrestling is best when its just two dudes (or gals) trying to beat the ever loving shit out of each other. That's what resonates with me. The whole 'this is a DREAAAMMMM match' from the ring announcer, the crowd feeling inorganic, the fawning immediately afterwards. It's like, can't people just go out and have a f***ing really good match? Why do we always need to hype shit up like this. Anyway. Loved the match but absolutely understand the critique. The crowd was a bit much and announcing it as a dream match was a little silly. Kinda reminds me when Edge and Orton had THE GREATEST WRESTLING MATCH EVER (tm) I kinda get it but as someone that was in the crowd for the match, it was hard not to get hyped up and excited to see the match in person and voice that. Might have been annoying for those at home I guess, but it wasn't like we were chanting to get ourselves over like you sometimes see. It was genuine excitement and anticipation for what was likely to be a great match happening in front of our very eyes. So while chanting "holy shit" before the match started might have been weird, it came from the heart if that makes sense. One of those, you had to be there to understand.
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King Devitt
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Post by King Devitt on Apr 24, 2024 2:03:12 GMT -5
I loved it and am probably the definition of target audience but announcing a dream match during the intro has to be ditched ASAP yeah agreed. When Justin Roberts said "Absolute Dream Match!" I went "ehhhhhhh" and made that face you make when someone offers you something you don't want.
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Apr 24, 2024 2:06:16 GMT -5
actually even though this is up there with takeshita/ospreay, i think i still gotta give it to that deathmatch by Swerve/Hangman since that was live. i will never forget the entire vibe in that arena as shit started going nuts
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Post by Viking Hall on Apr 24, 2024 3:11:52 GMT -5
I've got it as my number 2 match this year as well, I thought ZSJ vs Danielson in NJPW surpassed it, but only just.
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