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Post by mistery on May 21, 2024 7:36:42 GMT -5
The thing with a lot of these people is that "a healthy women's division" doesn't mean a healthy women's DIVISION, it just means their favourite on top in perpetuity. If Iyo Sky was some unbeatable juggernaut that looked strong in every match and every promo, 90% of our discourse wouldn't exist. Like, you and I have spoken about this before, one of the issues with the callup pipeline (and something they actually seem to be resolving now) is that there was talent lingering in NXT who had done everything and not making room for talent needing to debut and be showcased which was the entire point of the previous format of the show. They're beginning to solve that and instead of having credible people just bouncing around the top of the card, you're finally giving life to Raw and Smackdown with fresh talent and feuds and for that to be beneficial, you need to tell people that these people are actually worth watching instead of how most NXT callups get treated. I mean, I don't know what'll happen when NXT gets to CW and they actually have to treat it like a separate brand but the logic now makes sense. Here's the problem though. Iyo needed this just as much, as she entered the tournament with basically no credibility left. Even when she was champion, she lost way more than she won (she was the only champion heading into Wrestlemania who had lost more matches than she had won). And the feud that was supposed to elevate her, resulted in only Bayley being elevated. Iyo built up a lot of support in this tournament from the fans, and WWE immediately pissed it all away in order to push Lyra. It's going to be very hard for Iyo to actually rebuild that support again, if she even gets the chance to do so. Because it's very clear she's never actually going to get clean decisive wins over major names on the main roster. Any sort of win she does get against a major name is dirty, or because the person basically banana peeled themselves. This is why Iyo fans are always so pissy and angry. Every time she supposedly gets something, its actually just meant to elevate someone else. And it's also a reason why fans have a hard time getting behind her. It's because her pushes are wildly inconsistent, and usually never really serve to benefit her at the end of the day. She hasn't beaten a major name clean at all since being called up (and being a heel doesn't excuse that, because even heels get big clean wins from time to time). Meanwhile Lyra has beaten both Becky and Iyo, despite not clicking all that much with audiences. Hell, you can watch the match last night, and if it was your first time watching wrestling, you would assume Iyo is the face since that is who the audience was actually behind. And this doesn't actually negate the point that Lyra wasn't that over in NXT either. She got "woo" chants during her entrance but uh like another person in this thread said, her feuds were basically secondary to everything else in the NXT Women's Division, because she herself could never really get over. Tatum and whomever she was feuding with were doing almost all of the work in carrying those feuds. It's also not hard to be cynical that Lyra is only getting pushed this hard because she's so closely tied to Becky as well. I have a feeling if she wasn't tied at all to Becky, and they had never crossed paths, then this probably wouldn't be happening, because she just doesn't have the charisma or personality to be a top woman. It's why I feel like she's gonna be in deep shit if she doesn't step it up soon. It's only been three weeks on the main roster, but she never really found her footing in NXT either. Because it feels like the only reason she got the NXT Women's title is because Becky likely pushed for it behind the scenes. So answer me this, and be completely honest. When is Iyo going to get another meaningful run at the top, where she isn't constantly putting others over, and actually gets some major CLEAN wins over some actual major names? Because with how WWE is booking her, I'm pretty confident the answer is going to be "never". WWE isn't truly invested in her. They ACT like they do, but they aren't. |
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Post by EoE: Workin On My Night Cheese on May 21, 2024 7:56:22 GMT -5
So answer me this, and be completely honest. When is Iyo going to get another meaningful run at the top, where she isn't constantly putting others over, and actually gets some major CLEAN wins over some actual major names? Because with how WWE is booking her, I'm pretty confident the answer is going to be "never". WWE isn't truly invested in her. They ACT like they do, but they aren't. I'm trying to be respectable here because it's no secret I don't care for the melodramatic overreactions to these things, but I can't say one way or the other. If Asuka is anything to go by, Sky probably still has a handful of title runs left to go without possibly ever getting the "designated protagonist" dominate all comers run that her fanbase wants. There's also the fact that there still hasn't been an actual babyface run on the main roster yet, which people seem really ready to get behind if that gets off the ground. She's basically in a Dolph Ziggler position at the moment, the heel workhorse that gets put out to have good matches for TV with people on the way up the card, but it took literally years after that only world title run for Dolph Ziggler to become everyone's idea of Dolph Ziggler, that being the guy who will never make it to the top properly and thus isn't worth caring about. Being such a strong worker is a blessing and a curse in this regard. Just have to see where things go. |
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Post by Instant Classic on May 21, 2024 7:58:23 GMT -5
Haven’t seen much of her NXT stuff, but she needs a character.
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on May 21, 2024 7:58:31 GMT -5
I'm gonna get sick of "straight to the top" real quick.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on May 21, 2024 8:03:37 GMT -5
So answer me this, and be completely honest. When is Iyo going to get another meaningful run at the top, where she isn't constantly putting others over, and actually gets some major CLEAN wins over some actual major names? Because with how WWE is booking her, I'm pretty confident the answer is going to be "never". WWE isn't truly invested in her. They ACT like they do, but they aren't. I'm trying to be respectable here because it's no secret I don't care for the melodramatic overreactions to these things, but I can't say one way or the other. If Asuka is anything to go by, Sky probably still has a handful of title runs left to go without possibly ever getting the "designated protagonist" dominate all comers run that her fanbase wants. There's also the fact that there still hasn't been an actual babyface run on the main roster yet, which people seem really ready to get behind if that gets off the ground. She's basically in a Dolph Ziggler position at the moment, the heel workhorse that gets put out to have good matches for TV with people on the way up the card, but it took literally years after that only world title run for Dolph Ziggler to become everyone's idea of Dolph Ziggler, that being the guy who will never make it to the top properly and thus isn't worth caring about. Being such a strong worker is a blessing and a curse in this regard. Just have to see where things go. Honestly better than I was going to say, especially with my lack of experience in recent WWE. What I will say is that having not watched, I don't know if some of the reaction to this is actually felt by the fanbase in general or something that WWE feels a need to "fix" or something just around here that people feel without much evidence to it. And to answer the question myself? I don't know. She just came off a substantial reign for her standards, or most of the women not named Becky, Rhea or Charlotte, and she's still over so it's not like she's being released tomorrow or anything and I have no real context for what the actual product is for the most part so...*shrug*. |
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Post by mistery on May 21, 2024 8:11:47 GMT -5
So answer me this, and be completely honest. When is Iyo going to get another meaningful run at the top, where she isn't constantly putting others over, and actually gets some major CLEAN wins over some actual major names? Because with how WWE is booking her, I'm pretty confident the answer is going to be "never". WWE isn't truly invested in her. They ACT like they do, but they aren't. I'm trying to be respectable here because it's no secret I don't care for the melodramatic overreactions to these things, but I can't say one way or the other. If Asuka is anything to go by, Sky probably still has a handful of title runs left to go without possibly ever getting the "designated protagonist" dominate all comers run that her fanbase wants. There's also the fact that there still hasn't been an actual babyface run on the main roster yet, which people seem really ready to get behind if that gets off the ground. She's basically in a Dolph Ziggler position at the moment, the heel workhorse that gets put out to have good matches for TV with people on the way up the card, but it took literally years after that only world title run for Dolph Ziggler to become everyone's idea of Dolph Ziggler, that being the guy who will never make it to the top properly and thus isn't worth caring about. Being such a strong worker is a blessing and a curse in this regard. Just have to see where things go. Here's the problem though with the whole "she might have to wait multiple years" thing. She may want to return to Japan at some point to start a family or something. And for women, as bad as it sounds, the window to getting a strong push is a lot more narrow. That window for her is likely rapidly closing. I would honestly say that if she's not in title contention or built up like an actual top woman by the end of the year or by the Rumble (by winning it, but there are like a bunch of other women I see winning it before her), then she's pretty much gone next year. Her contract is apparently up next year, and I don't think she's going to sign a new deal if she's only going to be seen as the Dolph Ziggler of the division. She's been pretty open in the past about how she doesn't mind putting people over from time to time (as a rising tide lifts all boats), but also feels like she shouldn't have a ceiling put over her head or be held back either (and you can argue she's had a hard ceiling put over her since being called up tbh). And I have to imagine she's also smart enough to see through any sort of ploys WWE might pull in an attempt to get her to sign a new deal as well, which is why I feel like her next major push would have to be sustained and not just a "oh we will give you the title but never feature you in a meaningful way" role. Because I know that's a trick WWE likes to pull from time to time. They will give you a title run as an incentive to sign a new deal, and then immediately pull the rug out from under you the moment the ink is dry. And it's a trick I think WWE might attempt to pull with Iyo as well, because money isn't exactly a major concern of hers, if you've seen any interviews that some of her (sometimes former) coworkers have done. Like you had Mayu Iwatani talking about how Iyo just casually had over $25k in cash sitting on the table in her house (as Mayu went to visit her in Florida), and this was shortly after Iyo started in NXT. She is very much a "I do this for the passion and want to test my limits" kinda thing, and not the "I am only doing this to become rich" kinda thing. So it's not hard to imagine that WWE is going to have a really hard time signing her to a new deal if she isn't offered something REALLY good out of it, and it isn't written into her contract either. |
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cosmo
Unicron
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Post by cosmo on May 21, 2024 8:23:40 GMT -5
Haven’t seen much of her NXT stuff, but she needs a character. ”Yells in Gaelic” isn’t a character? |
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gl83
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,269
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Post by gl83 on May 21, 2024 8:30:39 GMT -5
I'm trying to be respectable here because it's no secret I don't care for the melodramatic overreactions to these things, but I can't say one way or the other. If Asuka is anything to go by, Sky probably still has a handful of title runs left to go without possibly ever getting the "designated protagonist" dominate all comers run that her fanbase wants. There's also the fact that there still hasn't been an actual babyface run on the main roster yet, which people seem really ready to get behind if that gets off the ground. She's basically in a Dolph Ziggler position at the moment, the heel workhorse that gets put out to have good matches for TV with people on the way up the card, but it took literally years after that only world title run for Dolph Ziggler to become everyone's idea of Dolph Ziggler, that being the guy who will never make it to the top properly and thus isn't worth caring about. Being such a strong worker is a blessing and a curse in this regard. Just have to see where things go. Here's the problem though with the whole "she might have to wait multiple years" thing. She may want to return to Japan at some point to start a family or something. And for women, as bad as it sounds, the window to getting a strong push is a lot more narrow. That window for her is likely rapidly closing. I would honestly say that if she's not in title contention or built up like an actual top woman by the end of the year or by the Rumble (by winning it, but there are like a bunch of other women I see winning it before her), then she's pretty much gone next year. Her contract is apparently up next year, and I don't think she's going to sign a new deal if she's only going to be seen as the Dolph Ziggler of the division. She's been pretty open in the past about how she doesn't mind putting people over from time to time (as a rising tide lifts all boats), but also feels like she shouldn't have a ceiling put over her head or be held back either (and you can argue she's had a hard ceiling put over her since being called up tbh). And I have to imagine she's also smart enough to see through any sort of ploys WWE might pull in an attempt to get her to sign a new deal as well, which is why I feel like her next major push would have to be sustained and not just a "oh we will give you the title but never feature you in a meaningful way" role. Because I know that's a trick WWE likes to pull from time to time. They will give you a title run as an incentive to sign a new deal, and then immediately pull the rug out from under you the moment the ink is dry. And it's a trick I think WWE might attempt to pull with Iyo as well, because money isn't exactly a major concern of hers, if you've seen any interviews that some of her (sometimes former) coworkers have done. Like you had Mayu Iwatani talking about how Iyo just casually had over $25k in cash sitting on the table in her house (as Mayu went to visit her in Florida), and this was shortly after Iyo started in NXT. She is very much a "I do this for the passion and want to test my limits" kinda thing, and not the "I am only doing this to become rich" kinda thing. So it's not hard to imagine that WWE is going to have a really hard time signing her to a new deal if she isn't offered something REALLY good out of it, and it isn't written into her contract either. Didn't they do something similar with Kairi Sane last time as well. Like the only time during her stint on the main roster that she was booked strong and anywhere remotely credible as a world-beater was when her contract was winding down.... |
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Post by PHD-FENDERBAUM on May 21, 2024 8:40:14 GMT -5
Here's the problem though with the whole "she might have to wait multiple years" thing. She may want to return to Japan at some point to start a family or something. And for women, as bad as it sounds, the window to getting a strong push is a lot more narrow. That window for her is likely rapidly closing. I would honestly say that if she's not in title contention or built up like an actual top woman by the end of the year or by the Rumble (by winning it, but there are like a bunch of other women I see winning it before her), then she's pretty much gone next year. Her contract is apparently up next year, and I don't think she's going to sign a new deal if she's only going to be seen as the Dolph Ziggler of the division. She's been pretty open in the past about how she doesn't mind putting people over from time to time (as a rising tide lifts all boats), but also feels like she shouldn't have a ceiling put over her head or be held back either (and you can argue she's had a hard ceiling put over her since being called up tbh). And I have to imagine she's also smart enough to see through any sort of ploys WWE might pull in an attempt to get her to sign a new deal as well, which is why I feel like her next major push would have to be sustained and not just a "oh we will give you the title but never feature you in a meaningful way" role. Because I know that's a trick WWE likes to pull from time to time. They will give you a title run as an incentive to sign a new deal, and then immediately pull the rug out from under you the moment the ink is dry. And it's a trick I think WWE might attempt to pull with Iyo as well, because money isn't exactly a major concern of hers, if you've seen any interviews that some of her (sometimes former) coworkers have done. Like you had Mayu Iwatani talking about how Iyo just casually had over $25k in cash sitting on the table in her house (as Mayu went to visit her in Florida), and this was shortly after Iyo started in NXT. She is very much a "I do this for the passion and want to test my limits" kinda thing, and not the "I am only doing this to become rich" kinda thing. So it's not hard to imagine that WWE is going to have a really hard time signing her to a new deal if she isn't offered something REALLY good out of it, and it isn't written into her contract either. Didn't they do something similar with Kairi Sane last time as well. Like the only time during her stint on the main roster that she was booked strong and anywhere remotely credible as a world-beater was when her contract was winding down.... Correrct She even pinned the then SD womens champion I believe it was Bayley in her final match and people thought she was staying because it made no sense to do that if she was leaving but nope she was absoloutley leaving still. And then they put out that video that wreaked of PLEASE DON'T LEAVE. |
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Post by EoE: Workin On My Night Cheese on May 21, 2024 8:47:41 GMT -5
Didn't they do something similar with Kairi Sane last time as well. Like the only time during her stint on the main roster that she was booked strong and anywhere remotely credible as a world-beater was when her contract was winding down.... Correrct She even pinned the then SD womens champion I believe it was Bayley in her final match and people thought she was staying because it made no sense to do that if she was leaving but nope she was absoloutley leaving still. And then they put out that video that wreaked of PLEASE DON'T LEAVE. But did Sane actually leave the first time BECAUSE of booking? You guys are more knowledgeable in this department than me, why DID Sane actually leave? I've always thought it was homesickness brought on by the worst times of the pandemic, but a lot of people went with the more sensationalist take of "Nia Jax run her out of the territory". (Should probably wind this tangent up soon, this thread is meant to be about Lyra Valkyria) |
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Post by hashtagdaley/JudasDay on May 21, 2024 8:48:12 GMT -5
Haven’t seen much of her NXT stuff, but she needs a character. Based off her NxT stuff, don’t you fret. She won’t be getting any. |
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Post by PHD-FENDERBAUM on May 21, 2024 8:52:23 GMT -5
Correrct She even pinned the then SD womens champion I believe it was Bayley in her final match and people thought she was staying because it made no sense to do that if she was leaving but nope she was absoloutley leaving still. And then they put out that video that wreaked of PLEASE DON'T LEAVE. But did Sane actually leave the first time BECAUSE of booking? You guys are more knowledgeable in this department than me, why DID Sane actually leave? I've always thought it was homesickness brought on by the worst times of the pandemic, but a lot of people went with the more sensationalist take of "Nia Jax run her out of the territory". (Should probably wind this tangent up soon, this thread is meant to be about Lyra Valkria) Mistery would have more insight into post WWE interviews where she spoke about it and what she said. But a large part of why she left reportedly was because she had just gotten married and wanted to be with her husband. |
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Post by mistery on May 21, 2024 9:20:35 GMT -5
Correrct She even pinned the then SD womens champion I believe it was Bayley in her final match and people thought she was staying because it made no sense to do that if she was leaving but nope she was absoloutley leaving still. And then they put out that video that wreaked of PLEASE DON'T LEAVE. But did Sane actually leave the first time BECAUSE of booking? You guys are more knowledgeable in this department than me, why DID Sane actually leave? I've always thought it was homesickness brought on by the worst times of the pandemic, but a lot of people went with the more sensationalist take of "Nia Jax run her out of the territory". (Should probably wind this tangent up soon, this thread is meant to be about Lyra Valkyria) Yeah. Part of it was on creative. Part was on homesickness as well, but she mentioned also leaving because she felt creatively unfulfilled at the time as well. That she had a ceiling over her that she couldn't/wouldn't be allowed to break through. It was also reported that the only reason she returned to WWE is because she thought her creative would improve under Triple H (which it hasn't, it's basically the same as when she left), and that was what she was told as well. And yeah, WWE was absolutely desperate to keep her. She mentioned that WWE even offered to get her husband a work visa and move him over here, and he was supportive of the idea, but she didn't really buy into it at the time. Because part of it was homesickness because of the pandemic, but another part of it was just her realizing that she had a hard ceiling in WWE with Vince in charge. Obviously the backstage atmosphere is different now with Triple H in charge, but it absolutely feels like WWE is still pulling the false promises card in order to get people to sign new deals. Especially for the people who aren't entirely financially motivated. Hell, part of me thinks taking these bigger money contracts is also a honeypot. Because if you are booked poorly but have a big money deal, you are also more likely to get cut. I'm obviously not a wrestler, but I would take a smaller contract in exchange for some creative freedom and guaranteed strong booking stuff if I am more passionate about wrestling than I am about making whater mountain of cash WWE throws at me. --- But anyways, back on topic about Lyra, she's going to severely struggle on the main roster, because she had this problem in NXT as well, but she has no real character. And being attached to Becky Lynch might help boost her exposure somewhat, but she still needs to find an identity of her own. Because if Becky leaves or takes time off, or even gets moved to a different brand, then Lyra is pretty much dead in the water. Because she's a great in ring worker, but has very little to no personality. I think the most apt comparison I've seen of her is that she's basically younger Nattie in terms of personality. Except replace "love of cats" with "love of birds". And it's safe to say that Lyra in NXT was a lot less interesting than a lot of the other women down there as well. You had Jacy Jayne doing stuff, Gigi Dolan beefing with Blair over family issues, the Chase U/Thea Hail stuff, Tiffany Stratton/Fallon Henley stuff, and Roxanne Perez losing her marbles. All of which felt like a way bigger/more interesting deal than whatever Lyra Valkyria (the NXT Women's Champion during a lot of that stuff) was doing. The only interesting part of Lyra's reign was Tatum's antics during it. If you removed Tatum from the equation, then Lyra was absolutely a flop as champion. |
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 17,476
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Post by BRV on May 21, 2024 9:29:31 GMT -5
Haven’t seen much of her NXT stuff, but she needs a character. Based off her NxT stuff, don’t you fret. She won’t be getting any. As of right now, her character is "Becky Lynch's friend." I assume that sometime this summer, that will grow and evolve into "Becky Lynch's enemy." |
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on May 21, 2024 9:33:30 GMT -5
Based off her NxT stuff, don’t you fret. She won’t be getting any. As of right now, her character is "Becky Lynch's friend." I assume that sometime this summer, that will grow and evolve into "Becky Lynch's enemy." Remember how Seth took a man's eye? Well, Becky's gonna get her eyes pecked out. Caw caw, and talons out for Lyra. |
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john84
Fry's dog Seymour
Proud Father of 3 :)
Posts: 24,672
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Post by john84 on May 21, 2024 9:38:46 GMT -5
As of right now, her character is "Becky Lynch's friend." I assume that sometime this summer, that will grow and evolve into "Becky Lynch's enemy." Remember how Seth took a man's eye? Well, Becky's gonna get her eyes pecked out. Caw caw, and talons out for Lyra. Don't forget about stealing ice cream from Becky's daughter  |
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gl83
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,269
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Post by gl83 on May 21, 2024 10:06:42 GMT -5
Remember how Seth took a man's eye? Well, Becky's gonna get her eyes pecked out. Caw caw, and talons out for Lyra. Don't forget about stealing ice cream from Becky's daughter To show that she's an unrepentant and evil Heel, Lyra will steal ice cream from Becky's daughter......and dump it onto her hair...... |
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john84
Fry's dog Seymour
Proud Father of 3 :)
Posts: 24,672
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Post by john84 on May 21, 2024 10:09:36 GMT -5
Don't forget about stealing ice cream from Becky's daughter To show that she's an unrepentant and evil Heel, Lyra will steal ice cream from Becky's daughter......and dump it onto her hair...... Fenderbaum? Is that you being salty because she beat Iyo last night? God I wish I was on last night lol. |
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Post by Stu on May 21, 2024 10:21:50 GMT -5
Like, you and I have spoken about this before, one of the issues with the callup pipeline (and something they actually seem to be resolving now) is that there was talent lingering in NXT who had done everything and not making room for talent needing to debut and be showcased which was the entire point of the previous format of the show. They're beginning to solve that and instead of having credible people just bouncing around the top of the card, you're finally giving life to Raw and Smackdown with fresh talent and feuds and for that to be beneficial, you need to tell people that these people are actually worth watching instead of how most NXT callups get treated. I mean, I don't know what'll happen when NXT gets to CW and they actually have to treat it like a separate brand but the logic now makes sense. Here's the problem though. Iyo needed this just as much, as she entered the tournament with basically no credibility left. Even when she was champion, she lost way more than she won (she was the only champion heading into Wrestlemania who had lost more matches than she had won). And the feud that was supposed to elevate her, resulted in only Bayley being elevated. Iyo built up a lot of support in this tournament from the fans, and WWE immediately pissed it all away in order to push Lyra. It's going to be very hard for Iyo to actually rebuild that support again, if she even gets the chance to do so. Because it's very clear she's never actually going to get clean decisive wins over major names on the main roster. Any sort of win she does get against a major name is dirty, or because the person basically banana peeled themselves. This is why Iyo fans are always so pissy and angry. Every time she supposedly gets something, its actually just meant to elevate someone else. And it's also a reason why fans have a hard time getting behind her. It's because her pushes are wildly inconsistent, and usually never really serve to benefit her at the end of the day. She hasn't beaten a major name clean at all since being called up (and being a heel doesn't excuse that, because even heels get big clean wins from time to time). Meanwhile Lyra has beaten both Becky and Iyo, despite not clicking all that much with audiences. Hell, you can watch the match last night, and if it was your first time watching wrestling, you would assume Iyo is the face since that is who the audience was actually behind. And this doesn't actually negate the point that Lyra wasn't that over in NXT either. She got "woo" chants during her entrance but uh like another person in this thread said, her feuds were basically secondary to everything else in the NXT Women's Division, because she herself could never really get over. Tatum and whomever she was feuding with were doing almost all of the work in carrying those feuds. It's also not hard to be cynical that Lyra is only getting pushed this hard because she's so closely tied to Becky as well. I have a feeling if she wasn't tied at all to Becky, and they had never crossed paths, then this probably wouldn't be happening, because she just doesn't have the charisma or personality to be a top woman. It's why I feel like she's gonna be in deep shit if she doesn't step it up soon. It's only been three weeks on the main roster, but she never really found her footing in NXT either. Because it feels like the only reason she got the NXT Women's title is because Becky likely pushed for it behind the scenes. So answer me this, and be completely honest. When is Iyo going to get another meaningful run at the top, where she isn't constantly putting others over, and actually gets some major CLEAN wins over some actual major names? Because with how WWE is booking her, I'm pretty confident the answer is going to be "never". WWE isn't truly invested in her. They ACT like they do, but they aren't. I like Iyo and the rest of Damage Control. But I'm gonna say it. Your anger and frustration over them is exhausting. Reel it in. |
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Totorob101
Hank Scorpio
Glob Glob Glob
Posts: 5,851
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Post by Totorob101 on May 21, 2024 10:30:08 GMT -5
She really needs to be a heel because people can't tolerate baby faces who want to play by the rules and do no evil. It's boring. Virtually no baby face has any kind of character this they need either to be an anti hero heel for anyone to start rooting for them.
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