AEW gotta get an actual developmental system going

[Magic knows Black Lives Matter]

Been thinking about this for a long long time. In my humble opinion, if you are genuinely trying to "compete" with WWE (no matter how silly that is on the surface), there's one area that you H A V E to be better at than them: Developing prospects. 

For real! AEW, for so long, has operated like a sports franchise that primarily signs established names to deals whenever they need a significant boost to the roster. Osprey, Okada, Danielson, I'm sure a couple other names pop into your head. I get the logic, you want guys who can actively contribute now and help the current roster. And you can do that! But you can't do it while essentially ignoring the concept of actually developing young talent. ...I mean, you CAN but you will hit a wall eventually, which I think AEW has been running into hard AF for the past year or so.

Too often, blue chippers in AEW get a showcase match (maybe even a few of them!) and then effectively get thrown into the deep end of a stacked roster and told to get themselves over amongst a sea of bodies. And, perhaps most crucially, prospects just aren't developing at the rate that they should. We're five years deep now, they're frankly should be more dudes who are at a sigficantly higher place on the card now than when they started. Dudes like Anthony Ogogo and Santham Singh just stay stagnant despite the fact that they SHOULD be guys producing more than they have at this point just based off how much has been put into them. Realistically, how CAN you get better in a industry that relies so heavily on repetition and you are only wrestling, at most, a couple times a week? "Well, they aren't ready yet so we bring in the more established talent" but how can they GET ready if you never even give them the chance to f***ing suck? It's like the old self-fulfilling prophecy when the current talent wouldn't get over on the main roster WWE so they had to keep relying on legends and part-timers. 

You can say a LOT about WWE's developmental system but one thing you kinda can't dispute is the PC and how it effectively pays for itself in terms of long term investments. Let's look at Trick Williams. This is a guy who was effectively a no-name before coming to NXT and he was f***ing HORRIBLE. But guess what??? He had to keep having matches and constantly working on the road and he got BETTER. a LOT better. More importantly, he got over to an audience that got see and experience his growth WITH HIM!!! That's part of the fun of this shit, being able to see the youngsters get good. And, if you wanna argue about the benefit to the company, I can damn near promise you that Trick is making a lot less than an Okada or Osprey while also generating relatively the same or more value to the actual product. Because (and say it with me now), developing talent will SAVE you money in the long run!

Idk if AEW can arrange something with smaller independents to get their younger guys working in front of crowds more, maybe they can purchase a school to run classes on days they don't have TV (and I mean MANDATORY classes, none of that "oh show up if you want to learn a couple things" bullshit) but the point I'm making is, they have got to establish some kind of system where these young cats are working regularly and actually being monitored on their progress. And if folks get grumpy about it??? Well, good luck finding a spot over at NXT, looks like they are kinda jam packed right now. 

TLDR: Develop some kind of system to get these young cats more reps so they can actually better and you can actually see some dividends pay off from guys that are effectively homegrown OR at the very least, have faith that strong talent is coming down the pipeline instead of having to spend a bag on Mercedes Mone.

[Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite]

That's what they should be using ROH for at this point

[UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm]

I get what you mean but I think it is a bit nuanced as to why they don't have a developmental system yet.

You could say that ROH is it or Dark/Elevation was it but as the roster increased, it became more of a place to develop those who would've been on the tail end of their NXT runs in comparison. That's not to say that's the case with everyone, you have your Gargano's/Cole's/etc. who stayed forever but generally most would've gotten a shot on the main roster. That's now gone and I simply don't watch ROH, I don't know if that is being used as a developmental brand but from the brief reads of the results it doesn't seem like it. It is making some people into stars that should transition over eventually though, like Athena who should own wrestling right now.

A lot of these guys and gals just aren't at that NXT age or stage of development. They've been working for ages already and it isn't like they need to do what NXT's main purpose is, which is to get people used to the "WWE Style" and how WWE works in general. AEW has people do what they did on the indies and that has generally worked out for people. There really isn't much of a difference so I'm not sure what a developmental would have them work towards you know?

Hell look at Ogogo. He's still getting some TV time with STP and Tony very clearly sees something in him. Satnam is the absolute antithesis of what AEW crowds like but isn't going anywhere, he used to be on the show all the time with Jarrett gang and they'll find something for him probably. You theoretically could put both of them and other people in front of a smaller crowd of a few hundred every week but what are you really going to have them work towards that would be better than the two of them picking up more indy shows to get better in ring?

[polarbearpete]

I don’t think a developmental system is needed, as long as the indies are alive and thriving as you just need to pluck certain talents at the right time of their indie development and you’ll have already-developed stars for your show.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

May 9, 2024 13:50:17 GMT -5 Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite said:

That's what they should be using ROH for at this point

They are though? Like... they've had a ton of younger talent and prospects there getting reps

Not just there but the Indies. Outside of like Parker Bordeaux and Jade, they've always had these guys and girls out there getting reps

[Final Countdown Jones]

A combination of ROH, encouraging people to keep working indies (Skye Blue has made huge leaps thanks to her hustle outside of AEW), and keeping strong scouting of the indies seem good. The Performance Center is a massive upswing compared to how WWE used to do things, but it's a crazy amount of money to pump into a system that's still not in my eyes producing the kind of talent you'd get from actual world travel, runs in Japan, seeing different places and working from the bottom up. If we're ten years from now, AEW is comfortably very profitable and Tony wants to reinvest that money, that would absolutely be a good way to reinvest it, but I think rushing to officialize something and get the infrastructure in place now would be a huge sunk cost. AEW needs to solidify a to more before they start worrying about the sorts of stars they're going to make five, six, eight years down the line, especially when they're as amenable as they are to finding your Daniel Garcias and your Willow Nightingales who have already been honed by the indies and just need to bring it all together.

[Cyno]

I think a developmental system like WWE's really only works if you want to groom your talent to work a specific style like WWE does. Otherwise, having connections with the indies, various wrestling schools, and other smaller promotions they do already does a lot of the legwork an internal developmental system does. I'd say the one weakness they have is promos outside of the wrestlers naturally good at them, so a dedicated promo course could do a lot to help shore that up.

[Mecca]

AEW is just going to use the indies, they aren't like WWE in expecting everyone to work this cookie cutter style.

[Kalmia]

Yeah, I think getting wrestlers to take more indie dates and go on excursions to other companies is the best way forward for AEW. They don't have an in house style like WWE largely does so training everyone in the same facility or promotion isn't suitable for AEW in the same way it is for WWE.

[Denny Zen is Cooking™]

Is the premise of this argument that Trick Williams currently brings the same value to a professional wrestling company as Kazuchika Okada and Will Ospreay, or am I misreading? That's a wild take to me, and I'm not even discounting how great Trick's ascent to the NXT championship has been.

I don't dispute the notion that developing talent can be valuable to a professional wrestling organization, but at the same time, that ignores the Dumbo-sized elephant in the room that, once you've developed a talent to a point of adding appreciable value to the show you become obligated to pay them accordingly (a la MJF), lest they leave for somewhere that will (a la Jade Cargill).

There's never going to be a scenario where AEW has its main event talents out there making $80k a year just because they're "homegrown."

 

[Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen]

I think what they’re doing is good, but I’d be encouraging more people to take indie dates or go on excursion. As said, Skye Blue had improved tremendously from working indie dates and Megan Bayne, who should be on tv, really solidified by going to Stardom.

[Allie Kitsune]

May 9, 2024 15:31:50 GMT -5 Denny Zen is Cooking™ said:

Is the premise of this argument that Trick Williams currently brings the same value to a professional wrestling company as Kazuchika Okada and Will Ospreay, or am I misreading? That's a wild take to me, and I'm not even discounting how great Trick's ascent to the NXT championship has been.

I don't dispute the notion that developing talent can be valuable to a professional wrestling organization, but at the same time, that ignores the Dumbo-sized elephant in the room that, once you've developed a talent to a point of adding appreciable value to the show you become obligated to pay them accordingly (a la MJF), lest they leave for somewhere that will (a la Jade Cargill).

There's never going to be a scenario where AEW has its main event talents out there making $80k a year just because they're "homegrown."

 

I don't think this is really fair to accuse OP of, but I don't want to be taking up for those bolded positions either...

[Allie Kitsune]

May 9, 2024 15:34:21 GMT -5 Ishmeal Loves Kaseyhausen said:

I think what they’re doing is good, but I’d be encouraging more people to take indie dates or go on excursion. As said, Skye Blue had improved tremendously from working indie dates and Megan Bayne, who should be on tv, really solidified by going to Stardom.

One thing I wonder about here, though, is will indies want to take perceived awful workers like Ogogo or Satnam? Are they going to be able to get work against quality workers if no quality indies want to book them?

[yokohamacpfc]

Fwiw I think OP is a bit too optimistic about WWE developmental with the two Ts Trick and Tiff being very much the exception rather than the rule but that’s a topic for another thread on the other board.

It is more of an issue for the men. Development is a rare case of AEW doing the women’s division a lot better. Skye Blue, Julia Hart, Willow Nightingale, the current rapid progress of Billie Starkz whether it’s better coaches or just a golden generation of talent they are tv ready a lot faster than Action Andretti or Darius Martin who are still in the “my gimmick is I’m young and a good wrestler” trap.

[Bo Rida]

I think that wbat they've done with Billie Starkz and Nick Wayne works. Sign them early, assign them a veteran to learn from, let them carry on with indy and/or international bookings.

They'll both learn way more from the varied experiences than they would in a cookie cutter developmental system.

Nxt was really a lucky set of circumstances, mostly adding value to wwe network. It won't be so easy for aew to get people to convince people to buy into watching people not ready for TV. I'm a big tjpw fan and I accept watching rookies develop is part if the deal in a way I wouldn't accept for aew in any feasible setup.

Using excursions and indies is way more useful for the likes of Anna Jay that reach a limit they struggle to develop past. Although of course they or aew need to offer something to be worthwhile for another promotion.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

This idea being suggested for AEW also coming at a time when NJPW is relying more on foreign talent and WWE is loosening its restrictions previously put on what their more experienced workers like AJ and Sami are alllowed to do in matches is kinda weird, because now everyone is just going to wind up balanced and totally even on the “workers with the brand style and the outsiders” scales. But yeah, they should probably consider it.

[khali]

May 9, 2024 15:31:50 GMT -5 Denny Zen is Cooking™ said:

Is the premise of this argument that Trick Williams currently brings the same value to a professional wrestling company as Kazuchika Okada and Will Ospreay, or am I misreading? That's a wild take to me, and I'm not even discounting how great Trick's ascent to the NXT championship has been.

I don't dispute the notion that developing talent can be valuable to a professional wrestling organization, but at the same time, that ignores the Dumbo-sized elephant in the room that, once you've developed a talent to a point of adding appreciable value to the show you become obligated to pay them accordingly (a la MJF), lest they leave for somewhere that will (a la Jade Cargill).

There's never going to be a scenario where AEW has its main event talents out there making $80k a year just because they're "homegrown."

 

That thing was in fact said here:

And, if you wanna argue about the benefit to the company, I can damn near promise you that Trick is making a lot less than an Okada or Osprey while also generating relatively the same or more value to the actual product.

I mean, for starters, I still think the jury is a little bit out on how well the PC is going to do. They sign a lot of people and most of them are not going to develop just by the pure math of it. For every Trick Williams and Tiffany Stratton they’re going to spend time on a dozen or more people who they give names like Saxton Freeman and Celestine Monroe that never go anywhere.

The AEW move of letting the young people work elsewhere is working out in many cases. Skye Billie is the shining example of this. She’s logged so many matches everywhere and you can tell the big difference raw ring time has made for her.

[Zone Was Wrong]

I don't see why though? Their whole premise is a mesh of different styles and wrestlers from everywhere. They have school's that are associated with AEW and they scout from the independents. As long as their greener talent work on the independents and ROH, there really isn't a point. ROH is used to establish and re-establish gimmicks and get wrestlers more used to TV/promos and they get their reps through ROH and indy's. Something like the Performance Center is pretty much just a pit of money that WWE has admitted to as much for awhile. WWE just likes it because they can control what their wrestlers learn and their cookie cutter style of training. Not that that is bad or anything, but not how AEW operates.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

May 9, 2024 16:56:21 GMT -5 khali said:

May 9, 2024 15:31:50 GMT -5 Denny Zen is Cooking™ said:

Is the premise of this argument that Trick Williams currently brings the same value to a professional wrestling company as Kazuchika Okada and Will Ospreay, or am I misreading? That's a wild take to me, and I'm not even discounting how great Trick's ascent to the NXT championship has been.

I don't dispute the notion that developing talent can be valuable to a professional wrestling organization, but at the same time, that ignores the Dumbo-sized elephant in the room that, once you've developed a talent to a point of adding appreciable value to the show you become obligated to pay them accordingly (a la MJF), lest they leave for somewhere that will (a la Jade Cargill).

There's never going to be a scenario where AEW has its main event talents out there making $80k a year just because they're "homegrown."

 

That thing was in fact said here:

And, if you wanna argue about the benefit to the company, I can damn near promise you that Trick is making a lot less than an Okada or Osprey while also generating relatively the same or more value to the actual product.

I mean, for starters, I still think the jury is a little bit out on how well the PC is going to do. They sign a lot of people and most of them are not going to develop just by the pure math of it. For every Trick Williams and Tiffany Stratton they’re going to spend time on a dozen or more people who they give names like Saxton Freeman and Celestine Monroe that never go anywhere.

The AEW move of letting the young people work elsewhere is working out in many cases. Skye Billie is the shining example of this. She’s logged so many matches everywhere and you can tell the big difference raw ring time has made for her.

I don't think it can be overstated how many people flunk out of the PC or early development in NXT

Like yeah it's proven to make stars but for every star there are 100 people who don't make it, and part of that is the nature of the business and not everyone's cut out for it, but a PC is not a magic wand you waive that immediately makes talent or makes wrestlers better

AEW has training facilities, excursions, indies, and Ring of Honor they can send stars to, and that's been working for them, so I don't see them sinking money into a PC program like WWE does for those kind of results, they really don't need to right now, they have a roster set up for the present, and the future, for a long time to come.

[HMARK Center]

May 9, 2024 14:56:42 GMT -5 Cyno said:

I think a developmental system like WWE's really only works if you want to groom your talent to work a specific style like WWE does. Otherwise, having connections with the indies, various wrestling schools, and other smaller promotions they do already does a lot of the legwork an internal developmental system does. I'd say the one weakness they have is promos outside of the wrestlers naturally good at them, so a dedicated promo course could do a lot to help shore that up.

This was part of why a few months in NJPW was great for Jack Perry: once the guy was being featured for an entire tour, that meant he got to do a post-match promo every single show. Same thing as talking in front of a crowd? No, but it's a huge way for a wrestler to discover their voice and what kind of tone/mannerisms/inflections/whatever they think best communicate who they are and how their character should be perceived.

But yeah, ultimately I don't really see the purpose of copying a WWE style system for this; the elephant in the room is that the PC just really hasn't churned out a lot of high end names for WWE, at least wrestlers who weren't already well established elsewhere and just needed a brief run in NXT to get used to the "WWE style", something I'm admittedly not a fan of. To be fair it's done better for the women, I think, but even then the number of draws they've built from the ground up isn't anything to write home about.

A dedicated training system is a lot more straightforward for a live events-based promotion, like NJPW and other puro companies. You allow your new, young, raw recruits to go out and open shows against one another and eat pins in tag matches with veterans they get to work with, and the crowd accepts it because they know they're basically just watching a preliminary match, they've already paid their ticket and gotten into the building (or paid money for your streaming service), and most of these promotions have a history of developing that talent and some fans like that feeling of "I watched this guy grow from when he was a young boy!" This lets the guys go out, work a super basic style when they're beginning, work 5-10 minute matches in front of crowds on the regular, build themselves up to slowly add more moves and more personality, then build all that up to an excursion and character/gimmick development, where they're literally away for months on end.

You can't really do that as much with American TV, depending on what networks want from your product. When you're worried about quarterly or even minute-by-minute ratings, when you can't dedicate lengthy matches to unproven draws just learning the ropes, when your audience will tune out quickly if you're dedicating time to raw recruits, etc., it's just a lot tougher to put a system together that both gets people their needed reps and doesn't do anything that derails your product.