Wrestling vs. Sports Entertainment

[detroitpaul]

After recently joining this site, I see that the majority of the fan-friendly wrestlers get flamed while the true workers are held to higher esteem. Am I to assume that the majority of people in here are wrestling fans and much prefer the physical aspect as opposed to the gimmicks they provide? People seem to have the highest praises for the technical wrestlers and crap all over others.

[willywonka666]

That's how I take it, I on the other hand, prefer the faces and while I appreciate their abilities, I'd rather see the Road Warriors obliterate someone, than Kurt Angle's technical matches

[skskillz]

detroitpaul said:

After recently joining this site, I see that the majority of the fan-friendly wrestlers get flamed while the true workers are held to higher esteem. Am I to assume that the majority of people in here are wrestling fans and much prefer the physical aspect as opposed to the gimmicks they provide? People seem to have the highest praises for the technical wrestlers and crap all over others.

Most of this forum resembles that quote, absolutely.

I prefer "sports entertainment", though I never liked that term. Wrestlers are wrestlers, regardless of their perceived "ability". Warrior was just as much a wrestler as Dynamite Kid. One was just pushed more than the other, and that gets into the business aspect of wrestling.

But to answer your question, yes, most on this forum will praise Lance Storm and piss on Bill Goldberg (for example).

[Ragnal]

skskillz said:

detroitpaul said:

After recently joining this site, I see that the majority of the fan-friendly wrestlers get flamed while the true workers are held to higher esteem. Am I to assume that the majority of people in here are wrestling fans and much prefer the physical aspect as opposed to the gimmicks they provide? People seem to have the highest praises for the technical wrestlers and crap all over others.

Most of this forum resembles that quote, absolutely.

I prefer "sports entertainment", though I never liked that term. Wrestlers are wrestlers, regardless of their perceived "ability". Warrior was just as much a wrestler as Dynamite Kid. One was just pushed more than the other, and that gets into the business aspect of wrestling.

But to answer your question, yes, most on this forum will praise Lance Storm and piss on Bill Goldberg (for example).

Yeah, but let's realize something. While they're both wrestlers, one worked harder than the other while the other was pushed harder..

Warrior, for example, just basically squashed his opponents, and prolly botched a number of his moves. Dynamite Kid wanted to put on good matches that were long enough for the fans to enjoy.

The same goes today with, for example, Bobby Lashley in comparison to (And I will say this) CM Punk. Punk obviously has the better abilities AND can speak for himself, while Lashley is doing basic generic moves and can't act on the mic to save his life. Yet, Lashley gets pushed as ECW's champion because he "looks the part" and "is popular", despite the obvious fact that CM Punk was cheered more by anyone in the crowds ever.

And I'll leave it at that before this post turns into War and Peace.

[vaderbomb91]

mikeragnal said:

The same goes today with, for example, Bobby Lashley in comparison to (And I will say this) CM Punk. Punk obviously has the better abilities AND can speak for himself, while Lashley is doing basic generic moves and can't act on the mic to save his life. Yet, Lashley gets pushed as ECW's champion because he "looks the part" and "is popular", despite the obvious fact that CM Punk was cheered more by anyone in the crowds ever.

Yeah, pushing better performers over better wrestlers is justified when they draw, but Lashey is neither and he probably won't. That's not to say that he can't be good someday; but like so many others in the past few years, he was called up when he was still too green to do much. I really feel sorry for guys like that who take all this heat because of WWE's complete lack of foresight. They're just doing their jobs.

With that said, I honestly wonder, at this point, if Vince has gone so insane/mad at the Internet fans that he'll push literally ANYONE instead of a smark darling (even if it loses him money). He's obviously developed a penchant for booking WWECW to be the EXACT OPPOSITE of what fans at live shows have told him they want. Hell, that's why the terms "WWECW" and "ECWWE" exist in the first place; many of us feel the need to distinguish it from the original.

And for the record, I make no bones about the fact that I care about wrestling and workrate more than skits and sports entertainment. The opposite was true when I was a little kid, but I never crap on anyone who tries their best. A lot of people here crap on Orton constantly, despite the fact that he's proven he can work time and time again. But because "OMGZ! He duz teh chinlokzs!" he supposedly can't wrestle. The only wrestler I really dislike is Hogan, but let's not open that can of worms.

[leemir]

It seems that in most cases the better worker will be remembered better though even in WWE, look how Benoit, Guerrero & Pillman are taught very highly of & guys like Warrior ain't. Of course there is exceptions like Hogan.

[Red 'n' Black Reggie]

i think cm punks love by the iwc actually did him a bit of harm in his wwe tenure. take kennedy(kennedy!) for example. outside of a few tna matches a few years back, the majority of us hadnt seen him before wwe, so we didnt expect good or bad from him. but with punk, if he were to have a bad match, we would crap on him twice as much, because we know he can do better. if kennedy had sucked before he made a reputation for himself, we wouldve just taken it as "kennedy cant wrestle", and expect that in future. if you know what i mean.

did that actually have anything to do with the thread?

[hollywood]

detroitpaul said:

After recently joining this site, I see that the majority of the fan-friendly wrestlers get flamed while the true workers are held to higher esteem. Am I to assume that the majority of people in here are wrestling fans and much prefer the physical aspect as opposed to the gimmicks they provide? People seem to have the highest praises for the technical wrestlers and crap all over others.

I'm one of the fans of "technical wrestlers" regardless of whether they're heels or faces. I can really get into a physical, athletic match with guys like Lance Storm, CM Punk (Pre-WWE), or Samoa Joe. I also like high-flying cruiserweight matches with guys like Paul London, Rey Mysterio, or even Sharkboy (yes, I like Sharkboy, sue me).

I'm not so into guys like John Cena or Batista who just seem to run through a list of power moves before squashing their opponents week after week. I'm not entertained by it. I don't like it. And I make no apologies.

While I try not to jump on the hate-bandwagons, I'm obviously going to praise the guys I like, rather than the ones I don't. But, I'm also not going to frown on anyone for who they like, no matter how much I disagree with them.

Except for Matt Striker. He sucks.

[JoshWoodrumGreaterThanHBK]

vaderbomb91 said:

mikeragnal said:

The same goes today with, for example, Bobby Lashley in comparison to (And I will say this) CM Punk. Punk obviously has the better abilities AND can speak for himself, while Lashley is doing basic generic moves and can't act on the mic to save his life. Yet, Lashley gets pushed as ECW's champion because he "looks the part" and "is popular", despite the obvious fact that CM Punk was cheered more by anyone in the crowds ever.

Yeah, pushing better performers over better wrestlers is justified when they draw, but Lashey is neither and he probably won't. That's not to say that he can't be good someday; but like so many others in the past few years, he was called up when he was still too green to do much. I really feel sorry for guys like that who take all this heat because of WWE's complete lack of foresight. They're just doing their jobs.

With that said, I honestly wonder, at this point, if Vince has gone so insane/mad at the Internet fans that he'll push literally ANYONE instead of a smark darling (even if it loses him money). He's obviously developed a penchant for booking WWECW to be the EXACT OPPOSITE of what fans at live shows have told him they want. Hell, that's why the terms "WWECW" and "ECWWE" exist in the first place; many of us feel the need to distinguish it from the original.

And for the record, I make no bones about the fact that I care about wrestling and workrate more than skits and sports entertainment. The opposite was true when I was a little kid, but I never crap on anyone who tries their best. A lot of people here crap on Orton constantly, despite the fact that he's proven he can work time and time again. But because "OMGZ! He duz teh chinlokzs!" he supposedly can't wrestle. The only wrestler I really dislike is Hogan, but let's not open that can of worms.

Sorry... but Im opening the can.... explain!

[hollywood]

joshwoodrum said:

Sorry... but Im opening the can.... explain!

Great...another Hogan war...

[JoshWoodrumGreaterThanHBK]

Its no war.... I bet that he hates Hogan because of some BS reason.... probally.... "He held down so and so" or "he did the same thing every match"

Arguments I can use to hate anyone from the Rock to Garrison Cade!

[MGH]

Personally yes, I do prefer the work inside to the ring to the gimmicky aspects of it. I don't like Hulk Hogan, loved Kurt Angle. Don't like Batista, love Chris Benoit. Love HHH and Shawn Michaels, hate Lashley and John Cena.

Some people share that and some don't. It only becomes an issue when some people start flaming over it which usually happens by page 2 of threads like this. Not a shot at the poster, but it's not going to be long before the first person and their "stoopid IWSEE and their workrate lolz that doesn't draw you moronz!" argument comes along.

[detroitpaul]

I guess the only thing I would like to see in these forums is more leniencies toward someones opinions. I prefer the spectacle that is sports entertainment as opposed to the scientific aspects. But at the same time, I want to see some wrestling too. Any match involving a diva is switched in my house. And people can crap all over DX but I still liked the telestrations (sp?) with Vince saying he liked cocks. This is not to say that I don't appreciate an actual match where athleticism is stressed over showmanship. But a 60 minute submission match would have too much boredom for me. I do not have a lot of disposable income for entertainment. If I am gonna go to a wrestling event (WM XXIII), I want to get a bang for my buck. If I want to see pure wrestling, I would go to the local high schools.


But that is just my opinion.

[hollywood]

detroitpaul said:

I guess the only thing I would like to see in these forums is more leniencies toward someones opinions. I prefer the spectacle that is sports entertainment as opposed to the scientific aspects. But at the same time, I want to see some wrestling too. Any match involving a diva is switched in my house. And people can crap all over DX but I still liked the telestrations (sp?) with Vince saying he liked cocks. This is not to say that I don't appreciate an actual match where athleticism is stressed over showmanship. But a 60 minute submission match would have too much boredom for me. I do not have a lot of disposable income for entertainment. If I am gonna go to a wrestling event (WM XXIII), I want to get a bang for my buck. If I want to see pure wrestling, I would go to the local high schools.


But that is just my opinion.

It's all a matter of taste. Nothing more. Pay for what you like.

[vaderbomb91]

joshwoodrum said:

Its no war.... I bet that he hates Hogan because of some BS reason.... probally.... "He held down so and so" or "he did the same thing every match"

Sounds like you're trying to start something to me. Why do you assume that my reasons are so simple? Are you trying to "show me up"? I won't turn this thead into a juvenile argument. I will just say that it involves his ego and the effects of it on MANY people, on WCW and on the entire business.

Not everyone likes your hero, and to take it as a personal insult when they don't is very childish. I haven't resorted to petty insults (which is more than can be said for you), and I am in no way infringing on your right to like Hulk Hogan. I just don't care for the man; deal with it.

[MGH]

detroitpaul said:

I guess the only thing I would like to see in these forums is more leniencies toward someones opinions. I prefer the spectacle that is sports entertainment as opposed to the scientific aspects. But at the same time, I want to see some wrestling too. Any match involving a diva is switched in my house. And people can crap all over DX but I still liked the telestrations (sp?) with Vince saying he liked cocks. This is not to say that I don't appreciate an actual match where athleticism is stressed over showmanship. But a 60 minute submission match would have too much boredom for me. I do not have a lot of disposable income for entertainment. If I am gonna go to a wrestling event (WM XXIII), I want to get a bang for my buck. If I want to see pure wrestling, I would go to the local high schools.


But that is just my opinion.

Hey, and that's all the matters in the end. What you would rather pay your hard earned money to see. Some people would like to spend $40 a month on WWE PPVs, and some would like to spend however much a month to get their ROH/PWG/CZW or whatever DVDs. Whatever keeps you a fan.

There is just one misconception I believe some people have though regarding people who prefer "wrestling" to the "sports entertainment" side of things. Workrate, which is a totally subjective term, doesn't necessarily mean 45 minutes of submission holds and amateur grappling. To me it just means who can have a good match. Hulk Hogan, John Cena, Batista, and guys like that just don't to me anymore. When I was a kid I may have loved them, but not now. When I did my top matches of the year I had the ROH v CZW Cage of Death match in my top 4. That wasn't exactly a technical masterpiece, it was just a damn entertaining and fun match. Joe and Kobashi didn't exactly go hold for hold, but I gave that match 5 stars the second I saw it. Someone like Ken Kennedy who people wouldn't lump in with the Benoits of the world is another guy I like watching because he's shown me more than once that he can go in the ring. Yes, I'll watch Benoit v Finlay and Danielson v Lance Storm all day, but if a brawl is perfectly done it can mean the same to a workrate freak like myself as a hold for hold 25 minute classic can.

[leemir]

detroitpaul said:

If I want to see pure wrestling, I would go to the local high schools.

Thats a completely different thing than Pure Wrestling. Pure Wrestling is still Pro Wrestling.

[nisi]

Actually there are a fair number of gimmick fans here, myself among them. We're a very bifurcated group--we want our gimmicks from WWE and our pure wrestling from ROH, with allegiances and affiliations in the middle too.

[JoshWoodrumGreaterThanHBK]

vaderbomb91 said:

joshwoodrum said:

Its no war.... I bet that he hates Hogan because of some BS reason.... probally.... "He held down so and so" or "he did the same thing every match"

Sounds like you're trying to start something to me. Why do you assume that my reasons are so simple? Are you trying to "show me up"? I won't turn this thead into a juvenile argument. I will just say that it involves his ego and the effects of it on MANY people, on WCW and on the entire business.

Not everyone likes your hero, and to take it as a personal insult when they don't is very childish. I haven't resorted to petty insults (which is more than can be said for you), and I am in no way infringing on your right to like Hulk Hogan. I just don't care for the man; deal with it.

Like i said u chose an idoit argument.... WCW going under was Bicschoff's and Russo's fault.... not hogans


if anything, Hogan has had the most positive effect than anyone else in this business!

[vaderbomb91]

joshwoodrum said:

vaderbomb91 said:

Sounds like you're trying to start something to me. Why do you assume that my reasons are so simple? Are you trying to "show me up"? I won't turn this thead into a juvenile argument. I will just say that it involves his ego and the effects of it on MANY people, on WCW and on the entire business.

Not everyone likes your hero, and to take it as a personal insult when they don't is very childish. I haven't resorted to petty insults (which is more than can be said for you), and I am in no way infringing on your right to like Hulk Hogan. I just don't care for the man; deal with it.

Like i said u chose an idoit argument.... WCW going under was Bicschoff's and Russo's fault.... not hogans


if anything, Hogan has had the most positive effect than anyone else in this business!

Yeah, Hogan and Nash's influence over Bischoff had absolutely nothing to do with it. Anyway, you're right and your opinion is fact. Is that what you want? Congratulations. You've "beaten" me.

Have fun insulting everyone who disagrees with you; it'll get you really far in life.