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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on Jul 1, 2007 2:31:31 GMT -5
I'm APPALLED that we're dismissing that as another case of "media will care about that until a better story comes out"... We, as fans, should be worried about our favourites from 15-20 (or less) years ago dying like flies. We should crave for better working conditions. Instead we're reacting like little brats who don't want to lose their toys... We still want tons of houseshows, insane touring schedules, crazy spots etc... Who cares if the wrestlers are caught in an extremely dangerous lifestyle? Whatever can put a limit to the ungodly amount of early deaths in pro wrestling is welcome. The business itself should have enough common sense to realize they've gone way too far, and take several steps backwards. If they don't want to, I have no problems with other people (i.e. government) to force them to do so. The wrestler's know what they're getting into. Yeah, maybe they gotta do a few shows they weren't supposed to because of an injury or no-show or whatever, but that's the deal with wrestling. It would be like a proctologist complaing he's staring at asses all day. Every job has certain hazards, you either accept them or get the smurf out. That USED to be the deal, now the deal is, the job should change to suit your needs. Unions are bullcrap. I belong to two of them and they haven't done crap for me, ever. I pay more every year in union dues than some people make in a year and all I have to show for it is a crapty pen every few years, if I happen to on shift when a union rep drops by. What he said. Well, except for that last paragraph, that's his personal experience, which I haven't lived. But the first two? Dead on.
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Post by kawalimus on Jul 1, 2007 3:05:13 GMT -5
So all those coal miners who die and are abused shouldn't be taken care of better by employers? Just cause bad stuff happens in profession don't mean it has to stay that way or nothing should be done. If turns out McMahon is working wrestlers to death he should be forced change it.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 3:11:38 GMT -5
So all those coal miners who die and are abused shouldn't be taken care of better by employers? Just cause bad stuff happens in profession don't mean it has to stay that way or nothing should be done. If turns out McMahon is working wrestlers to death he should be forced change it. AJW was forced to change it- they wouldn't let people have time off for surgeries or any time off at all, injuries piled up sky high and a lot of deaths, although JWP made history with Plum Mariko's tragic death. Working wrestlers to death is not only unethical it's also horrible for businesss.
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Post by kawalimus on Jul 1, 2007 3:20:50 GMT -5
Problem is Japan's goverment cares about it's people. American government doesn't. That's as far ill go with that but its truth.
People who say "that's just the way it is" sound delusional to me, lots of things were one way at one time and have changed. That attitude is what leads to lots of bad stuff in the world.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 3:25:53 GMT -5
Problem is Japan's goverment cares about it's people. American government doesn't. That's as far ill go with that but its truth. People who say "that's just the way it is" sound delusional to me, lots of things were one way at one time and have changed. That attitude is what leads to lots of bad stuff in the world. That's exactly how I feel. I've always felt that wrestlers needed a union. Their rights get trampled on. Stuff we wouldn't take from our job.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 1, 2007 6:39:33 GMT -5
Problem is Japan's goverment cares about it's people. American government doesn't. That's as far ill go with that but its truth. People who say "that's just the way it is" sound delusional to me, lots of things were one way at one time and have changed. That attitude is what leads to lots of bad stuff in the world. That's exactly how I feel. I've always felt that wrestlers needed a union. Their rights get trampled on. Stuff we wouldn't take from our job. How are their rights trampled on? They get paid for working a job. Don't like it, don't do it. You cant have a union where some can join and some cant because that undermines the union and would led to only non union wrestlers ever getting anywhere for fear of industrial action from a top star because of what a union asks/tells them to do. Not to mention what happens when the union itself begins to fracture and so you have fifteen different unions all fighting each other and supposedly looking after their members. I have already suggested what should be done in a post a page back, but here it is again for those who wish to attack one post without looking at any of the others: Third party more frequent medal tests; Mandatory psychological councilling (to help try and keep performers off the recreational drugs/alcohol which actually seem to be causing most of these deaths); And a paid annual holiday of say, 4-6 weeks where the wrestler doesnt wrestler on tv or house shows......or only wrestles or appears on tv if they really have to (say if they are a champion); And why not offer either some financial dvice or investment opportunities to help wrestlers preserve cash and keep them from going broke when their rings days are gone.
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Post by kawalimus on Jul 1, 2007 7:40:04 GMT -5
Their skill is wrestling. Like said about Benoit that's all he did, he never had other job but wrestling. That's all he had to offer to the world.
WWE is the top promotion and virtually only place you can work and get good pay. If Benoit were to have just gotten out of wrestling, he would had been left with nothing and WWE don't help guys when they're out.
I am for regulations like you are saying but problem is they will NEVER get those regulations until somebody more powerful than Vince has a say in it. I don't know if a union is the answer but if it's not then something else has to be.
Fact is, good wrestling talent is disappearing all time. Even when guys are done with WWE those older experienced guys should be healthy so they can maybe help out independent circuits trying to get off ground. Say Benoit healthy and retired went to help someone like ROH part time. Or some other promotion. Or Finlay what if he were to help a small promotion with up and coming wrestlers who would love to get that opportunity. But they don't cause when guys leave WWE they are broken and if they'r enot broken WWE keeps em till they are.
WWE and rest of wrestling needs to cherish talent they have and work to help keep them as healthy as possible cause you never know. What happens when all of em go? Benoit, Guerrero are gone. HHH, HBK, Undertaker, Batista, Mysterio, even Edge, all these top guys have trouble with injuries. What's gonna happen when all these guys are gone? Who takes over?
CM Punk said something that will stick with me..about keeping this generation of wrestlers alive. That was a comment that everyone should take to heart who likes wrestling, from Vince to the fans watching.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 1, 2007 8:58:45 GMT -5
Lots of wrestlers who leave wrestling are able to go out and get 'proper' jobs, usually in property or land for some odd reason.
Those that don't should have saved their money. If you know all you can do is wrestle and know that you cant do that forever, then you need to be sensible enough to do something about that when you can, not leave it to the last minute and expect a hand out or give up on everything and drug yourself up or drink yourself to ruin.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 9:14:32 GMT -5
That's exactly how I feel. I've always felt that wrestlers needed a union. Their rights get trampled on. Stuff we wouldn't take from our job. How are their rights trampled on? They get paid for working a job. Don't like it, don't do it. WOW. That's all I have to say. I don't usually get patriotic, I'm just glad people like that aren't running the country.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 1, 2007 9:19:16 GMT -5
No, please, don't just brush off my comment, please explain to me how WWE wrestlers are having their rights trampled on?
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 9:21:09 GMT -5
No, please, don't just brush off my comment, please explain to me how WWE wrestlers are having their rights trampled on? Not WWE wrestlers, ALL wrestlers in general. Granted, their job is wrestling but just because they entertain us like freaks in a circus doesn't mean that just because they aren't upper echelon stars doesn't mean they should have to work through and injury or work on a bad injury. It also doesn't mean that they should be refused time off to deal with injuries. That's how Plum Mariko died, they never gave her permission to take time off to deal with her headaches.
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nisi
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Post by nisi on Jul 1, 2007 9:23:18 GMT -5
Legion, I think the main disagreement here concerns rights to work. Not "don't like it, don't do it," but that people have actual rights and legitimate expectations from their employers, and a safe and sane working schedule is about one of the most important. Chris Benoit was flying home to be with his son for FOUR HOURS between matches--that's not to defend what he did, but clearly a sign of how crazy the work schedule is.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 9:23:40 GMT -5
No, please, don't just brush off my comment, please explain to me how WWE wrestlers are having their rights trampled on? I brushed it off because I think it's callous and incredibly hard assed. Oh well, some people are like that. Some run countries.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 9:25:25 GMT -5
Legion, I think the main disagreement here concerns rights to work. Not "don't like it, don't do it," but that people have actual rights and legitimate expectations from their employers, and a safe and sane working schedule is about one of the most important. Exactly. "Don't like it, don't do it" is like asking people to forfeit those expectations.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 1, 2007 9:29:00 GMT -5
Well, to be honest, i'm talking about WWE stars. I would imagine that lower level stars/indie workers are a whole other issue. Introducing a union system in indie feds. would kill that system. There is no way that an indie promoter would be able to back down ever, to any demand from a union.
I really am sorry to hear that someone with such a fruity name died, but come on, if you think you're that ill and a headache isnt going away, common sense says go see a doctor. It isnt like they wrestle 24/7 - go during the day, or just walk out. If you're that good, you'll get booked elsewhere.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 9:30:23 GMT -5
Well, to be honest, i'm talking about WWE stars. I would imagine that lower level stars/indie workers are a whole other issue. Introducing a union system in indie feds. would kill that system. There is no way that an indie promoter would be able to back down ever, to any demand from a union. I really am sorry to hear that someone with such a fruity name died, but come on, if you think you're that ill and a headache isnt going away, common sense says go see a doctor. It isnt like they wrestle 24/7 - go during the day, or just walk out. If you're that good, you'll get booked elsewhere. She saw a doctor (of course it would be stupid not to), asked the office for a day off they said no and that night, after a powerbomb she fell unconscious. And besides, all she asked for was some time off. You shouldn't have to be forced to do a walk out.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 1, 2007 9:32:47 GMT -5
Legion, I think the main disagreement here concerns rights to work. Not "don't like it, don't do it," but that people have actual rights and legitimate expectations from their employers, and a safe and sane working schedule is about one of the most important. Chris Benoit was flying home to be with his son for FOUR HOURS between matches--that's not to defend what he did, but clearly a sign of how crazy the work schedule is. It is a crazy work schedule, but then he knew that when he started working. He knew that when he started a family. His wife certainly knew that when she married him having been in the business herself. I haven't said that wrestling should stay as it is, im simply saying that a union isnt the way forward, what is, in my humble opinion, is what i outlined a few posts back. Those ideas include psychological provisions, financial advice and paid time off annually.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 1, 2007 9:35:05 GMT -5
Well, to be honest, i'm talking about WWE stars. I would imagine that lower level stars/indie workers are a whole other issue. Introducing a union system in indie feds. would kill that system. There is no way that an indie promoter would be able to back down ever, to any demand from a union. I really am sorry to hear that someone with such a fruity name died, but come on, if you think you're that ill and a headache isnt going away, common sense says go see a doctor. It isnt like they wrestle 24/7 - go during the day, or just walk out. If you're that good, you'll get booked elsewhere. She saw a doctor (of course it would be stupid not to), asked the office for a day off they said no and that night, after a powerbomb she fell unconscious. And besides, all she asked for was some time off. You shouldn't have to be forced to do a walk out. If she asked for a night off, and knew that she needed it having seen a doctor she should have either a) walked out or b) made sure she had a doctor's note and threaten a law suit. In the end it was her decision to walk out to the ring.
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nisi
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Post by nisi on Jul 1, 2007 9:36:13 GMT -5
Introducing a union system in indie feds. would kill that system. There is no way that an indie promoter would be able to back down ever, to any demand from a union. Actually in states like Missouri that still regulate pro wrestling with pro boxing, wrestlers have to be licensed individually, even the time keeper needs a license, and the fed has to put up a purse and be licensed. A union would work well in those states. Indy promoters have a lot of power to book as they wish in the USA, a union would barely slow some of them down. The important thing would be that the workers would have legal protections and the promoters would have to treat them equally. Lots of workers wrestle for nothing as it is--they know what the business is like, and they are often part-time wrestlers.
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Post by Super Nimieboo on Jul 1, 2007 9:38:01 GMT -5
She saw a doctor (of course it would be stupid not to), asked the office for a day off they said no and that night, after a powerbomb she fell unconscious. And besides, all she asked for was some time off. You shouldn't have to be forced to do a walk out. If she asked for a night off, and knew that she needed it having seen a doctor she should have either a) walked out or b) made sure she had a doctor's note and threaten a law suit. In the end it was her decision to walk out to the ring. Lawsuit? She'd get fired before it even hit the court. Walk out? Get black balled. Even the office said she had a doctor's note, a lot of her co-workers had similar doctors notes but it does no good because wrestling does not work the way our jobs work.And it shouldn't have to come down to that, anyway. Unless you're employers are jerks.
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