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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 18, 2007 12:53:19 GMT -5
I still liked it. Thought it was fun to see.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Sept 18, 2007 12:55:42 GMT -5
Meh, wrestling isn't gonna come crashing down on itself cause one guy beat up a bunch of other guys.
No biggie.
I like Trips, he entertains me. That is what WWE's goal is ya know, entertainment.
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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 12:55:59 GMT -5
This can't be said enough. On a slightly off-topic note, how much does that 'SPACE FOR RENT' cost? And thank you for agreeing with me.
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Post by #Classic Hi-Definition X on Sept 18, 2007 12:57:28 GMT -5
This can't be said enough. On a slightly off-topic note, how much does that 'SPACE FOR RENT' cost? Tree-fiddy. ;D
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Post by Arthur Digby Stamp on Sept 18, 2007 12:58:14 GMT -5
And again, I will say this: everyone is taking this far too seriously. The 'E is still making money, enough said. But they're costing themselves far more money by not having all their bases covered. Just look at the Attitude era. The teams everyone associates with that time frame are... -The Hardy Boys -The Dudley Boys -Edge and Christian You would've been hard-pressed to find a time where any one, much less two, of these teams were buried and made to look bad by one guy. Not even the mighty Stone Cold himself. You had the marquee guys like Austin, Rock, Foley, and Taker at the top of the card, but at the same time you had guys in the midcard who were consistantly stealing the show at every pay-per-view. And it wouldn't be a stretch to say that a lot of that money and a lot of those pay-per-view buys were to see those guys perform. Did they draw as much as the main eventers? No. But they drew money, no question. And look at those guys now. Edge and Christian are bonafide main eventers, and the Hardys are teetering on the edge of being main event players. The current tag teams aren't even being given the opportunity to establish anything or draw any money because they're having their legs taken out from under them every couple months.
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Post by Avalanche Alvarez on Sept 18, 2007 13:01:17 GMT -5
Meanwhile over in TNA Jay Lethal went clean over Kurt Angle. Just saying ;D Oh noes!
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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 13:02:50 GMT -5
And again, I will say this: everyone is taking this far too seriously. The 'E is still making money, enough said. But they're costing themselves far more money by not having all their bases covered. Just look at the Attitude era. The teams everyone associates with that time frame are... -The Hardy Boys -The Dudley Boys -Edge and Christian You would've been hard-pressed to find a time where any one, much less two, of these teams were buried and made to look bad by one guy. Not even the mighty Stone Cold himself. You had the marquee guys like Austin, Rock, Foley, and Taker at the top of the card, but at the same time you had guys in the midcard who were consistantly stealing the show at every pay-per-view. And it wouldn't be a stretch to say that a lot of that money and a lot of those pay-per-view buys were to see those guys perform. Did they draw as much as the main eventers? No. But they drew money, no question. And look at those guys now. Edge and Christian are bonafide main eventers, and the Hardys are teetering on the edge of being main event players. The current tag teams aren't even being given the opportunity to establish anything or draw any money because they're having their legs taken out from under them every couple months. It's not the fact that the little kiddy fans don't care about the midcard, oh noooooooooo... Way to counter my argument by pretty much changing the subject. We're not talking about them drawing any money, because in honesty, they really don't. They are timefillers for the guys who DO make money (the main-event), and this is how the new age is. Most people look at it in terms of 10-20 years ago. This isn't the Attitude Era. This is not the Federation era. This is the, for lack of better words, the Entertainment Era. Until you come to terms with the fans and the demographic being different nowadays, you're just going to continue trying to justify something that really isn't true, because that's not how the industry is.
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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 13:03:58 GMT -5
On a slightly off-topic note, how much does that 'SPACE FOR RENT' cost? Tree-fiddy. ;D So, I need to get 50 Cent in a tree costume? Halloween IS around the corner...I'm sure we can work something out.
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Post by Loki on Sept 18, 2007 13:16:23 GMT -5
It's not the fact that the little kiddy fans don't care about the midcard, oh noooooooooo... Way to counter my argument by pretty much changing the subject. We're not talking about them drawing any money, because in honesty, they really don't. They are timefillers for the guys who DO make money (the main-event), and this is how the new age is. Most people look at it in terms of 10-20 years ago. This isn't the Attitude Era. This is not the Federation era. This is the, for lack of better words, the Entertainment Era. Until you come to terms with the fans and the demographic being different nowadays, you're just going to continue trying to justify something that really isn't true, because that's not how the industry is. Interesting theory, but where does it go? I mean, I see your point about the Entertainment ( ) Era being different from the MNW days and from the WWF glory days, BUT... is it really wise having the main event guys, those who draw money, constantly crap on the midcarders, basically reminding the crowd most guys on the show are, ultimately, worthless filler? The answer is no: and that was well proven by SmackDown's sad state in the last months/years, with all the injuries that plagued the roster. WWE were FORCED to dig Undertaker out of his "Legend Status", to repackage a retiring Booker T, to push the World's Strongest Man and the World's Biggest Midget, to put the belt on a sideshow attraction like Khali... And that because they were too busy pleasuring themselves ((TM)Santino) with Cena and Batista to care about the death of the midcard. In the end, Triple H going on a random rampage isn't bad per se (he's Triple f'n H, back from injury, so it's quite understandable from a kayfabe standpoint), but it's bad for the mid-term business. But it was just another nail on the already very well sealed coffin of the midcard.
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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 13:20:16 GMT -5
It's not the fact that the little kiddy fans don't care about the midcard, oh noooooooooo... Way to counter my argument by pretty much changing the subject. We're not talking about them drawing any money, because in honesty, they really don't. They are timefillers for the guys who DO make money (the main-event), and this is how the new age is. Most people look at it in terms of 10-20 years ago. This isn't the Attitude Era. This is not the Federation era. This is the, for lack of better words, the Entertainment Era. Until you come to terms with the fans and the demographic being different nowadays, you're just going to continue trying to justify something that really isn't true, because that's not how the industry is. Interesting theory, but where does it go? I mean, I see your point about the Entertainment ( ) Era being different from the MNW days and from the WWF glory days, BUT... is it really wise having the main event guys, those who draw money, constantly crap on the midcarders, basically reminding the crowd most guys on the show are, ultimately, worthless filler? The answer is no: and that was well proven by SmackDown's sad state in the last months/years, with all the injuries that plagued the roster. WWE were FORCED to dig Undertaker out of his "Legend Status", to repackage a retiring Booker T, to push the World's Strongest Man and the World's Biggest Midget, to put the belt on a sideshow attraction like Khali... And that because they were too busy pleasuring themselves ((TM)Santino) with Cena and Batista to care about the death of the midcard. In the end, Triple H going on a random rampage isn't bad per se (he's Triple f'n H, back from injury, so it's quite understandable from a kayfabe standpoint), but it's bad for the mid-term business. But it was just another nail on the already very well sealed coffin of the midcard. Correct. I don't know if it is wise, but it is how they are doing things. This is the difference between the old days and today...they can bury the midcard, because they know where the money is: the main event. People pay to see the main event, and if the midcard is good, that is fine. If it isn't, well, they just have to hope for the best that the main event is just that much better. That's how business is run today, no matter how stupid or shortsighted it might seem to be.
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Post by Arthur Digby Stamp on Sept 18, 2007 13:21:54 GMT -5
But they're costing themselves far more money by not having all their bases covered. Just look at the Attitude era. The teams everyone associates with that time frame are... -The Hardy Boys -The Dudley Boys -Edge and Christian You would've been hard-pressed to find a time where any one, much less two, of these teams were buried and made to look bad by one guy. Not even the mighty Stone Cold himself. You had the marquee guys like Austin, Rock, Foley, and Taker at the top of the card, but at the same time you had guys in the midcard who were consistantly stealing the show at every pay-per-view. And it wouldn't be a stretch to say that a lot of that money and a lot of those pay-per-view buys were to see those guys perform. Did they draw as much as the main eventers? No. But they drew money, no question. And look at those guys now. Edge and Christian are bonafide main eventers, and the Hardys are teetering on the edge of being main event players. The current tag teams aren't even being given the opportunity to establish anything or draw any money because they're having their legs taken out from under them every couple months. It's not the fact that the little kiddy fans don't care about the midcard, oh noooooooooo... Way to counter my argument by pretty much changing the subject. We're not talking about them drawing any money, because in honesty, they really don't. They are timefillers for the guys who DO make money (the main-event), and this is how the new age is. Most people look at it in terms of 10-20 years ago. This isn't the Attitude Era. This is not the Federation era. This is the, for lack of better words, the Entertainment Era. Until you come to terms with the fans and the demographic being different nowadays, you're just going to continue trying to justify something that really isn't true, because that's not how the industry is. Why should the little kiddie fans care about the midcard? The WWE has given ZERO reason anyone should care about the midcard. They continually establish that the midcard sucks, and the main event is good. Just ask London, or Kendrick, or Cade, or Murdoch. Hell, ask Umaga, who needed the help of 2 other guys to compete with Lashley. Ask Tommy Dreamer, Sandman, and Balls Mahoney, who were squashed in a 3 on 1 hardcore match by Lashley a while ago.
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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 13:23:03 GMT -5
It's not the fact that the little kiddy fans don't care about the midcard, oh noooooooooo... Way to counter my argument by pretty much changing the subject. We're not talking about them drawing any money, because in honesty, they really don't. They are timefillers for the guys who DO make money (the main-event), and this is how the new age is. Most people look at it in terms of 10-20 years ago. This isn't the Attitude Era. This is not the Federation era. This is the, for lack of better words, the Entertainment Era. Until you come to terms with the fans and the demographic being different nowadays, you're just going to continue trying to justify something that really isn't true, because that's not how the industry is. Why should the little kiddie fans care about the midcard? The WWE has given ZERO reason anyone should care about the midcard. They continually establish that the midcard sucks, and the main event is good. Just ask London, or Kendrick, or Cade, or Murdoch. Hell, ask Umaga, who needed the help of 2 other guys to compete with Lashley. Ask Tommy Dreamer, Sandman, and Balls Mahoney, who were squashed in a 3 on 1 hardcore match by Lashley a while ago. Again, this is correct. Why should we care? This is the point I've been making the whole time. On page 14 at the bottom, I addressed this already. EDIT: By no means is it 'right', but it is indeed correct, in how things are nowadays.
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Post by Arthur Digby Stamp on Sept 18, 2007 13:33:49 GMT -5
Why should the little kiddie fans care about the midcard? The WWE has given ZERO reason anyone should care about the midcard. They continually establish that the midcard sucks, and the main event is good. Just ask London, or Kendrick, or Cade, or Murdoch. Hell, ask Umaga, who needed the help of 2 other guys to compete with Lashley. Ask Tommy Dreamer, Sandman, and Balls Mahoney, who were squashed in a 3 on 1 hardcore match by Lashley a while ago. Again, this is correct. Why should we care? This is the point I've been making the whole time. On page 14 at the bottom, I addressed this already. EDIT: By no means is it 'right', but it is indeed correct, in how things are nowadays. I don't think it is correct. I think it would make a noticable financial difference if they presented a strong midcard to go with the main event picture. Cena dominates the main event picture, and is a pretty good representation of it. And he is booed out of the building in many arenas. My feeling is that a improved midcard could and would appeal to the increasingly vocal anti-Cena group. The question in my mind is whether or not those people that boo Cena every week are also buying the pay-per-views to see him lose, or aren't buying pay-per-views because they genuinely don't want to see him wrestle.
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Post by T.J. "the Crippler" Stevens on Sept 18, 2007 13:34:45 GMT -5
That was ridiculous. It's not defensible anymore, guys. I know alot of people like him. And damn is he a good wrestler. But what in the world did this accomplish? Does anyone not already think that Triple H is a main event guy? Does he really need this much build up? What are they establishing? Even Andre the Giant wouldn't beat up 5 non-jobbers without breaking a sweat. I want to like Triple H because he's always put on good matches, but he's the last person on the roster that needs this kind of build up. He's at the top already. This does nothing to help him.
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Post by Loki on Sept 18, 2007 13:34:55 GMT -5
I'll take a long shot here...
Blame it on the peak of the Attitude Era!
Let me explain: back when they had like 6 bona fide main eventers (Rock, Austin, HHH, Foley, Vince + one out of Taker/Kane/Big Show), and a solidly established midcard (with Angle, Benoit, Jericho, Edge and Christian...) WWE could basically book a whole show only using the Main Eventers and their storylines, usually involving many of them in different roles/capacity. And for good measure a bit of good wrestling/awesome spots with the Midcard.
So when the Popular Midcarders got elevated to replace the retired Main Eventers, they were ready, but in the meanwhile, WWE didn't bother to rebuild the midcard, because the winning formula of Main Event Only shows was rewarding and easier to work around.
Then the roster got thinner, and now we're out of decently over midcarders, because the show has been focused on the World Titles and on the McMahons for such a long time that all the rest has become worthless at the eyes of the fans.
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algertman
Hank Scorpio
Heroes Die. Legends Live Forever.
Posts: 5,486
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Post by algertman on Sept 18, 2007 13:39:27 GMT -5
You're welcome. Can't wait 'til next week. Did you hear? THE RAW MAIN EVENT: TRIPLE H in a 30 MAN GAUNTLET MATCH! I wonder who's gonna win? I thought it was a SLOBBERKNOCKER match. Spoiler: Cena wins. f*** YEAH!
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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 13:41:00 GMT -5
That was ridiculous. It's not defensible anymore, guys. I know alot of people like him. And damn is he a good wrestler. But what in the world did this accomplish? Does anyone not already think that Triple H is a main event guy? Does he really need this much build up? What are they establishing? Even Andre the Giant wouldn't beat up 5 non-jobbers without breaking a sweat. I want to like Triple H because he's always put on good matches, but he's the last person on the roster that needs this kind of build up. He's at the top already. This does nothing to help him. I'm not defending it in the least. It's not right in how it is. It's not a good thing for the long-term, and it's only going to continue. It's not good, but damnit, it's what the business has become. Until there is a mutiny of epic proportions, it's never going to change. As long as the 'E is still breaking a profit of any kind, this is what we will come to expect. It's bad business, but it's still seeming to be profitable. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That is what Vinny and the rest of the company is doing. There's no defending what's going on, but there's not much that's going to change. As long as Vince is rich and he dies rich and provides for his family so they can stay afloat, then it doesn't matter what any of us think. If you want another example, look at Sega in 2001-2002. The Dreamcast wasn't what people wanted, and they weren't doing much to change it. When Sony brought about something else, the PS2, people went from Sega to Sony, and look what happened. The same will have to happen to the WWE, whether we go to another company, or just dump pro wrestling as a whole. That's what it will take, and the industry is by no means ready to just jump off of it and never speak of it again. It's a vicious cycle.
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Post by T.J. "the Crippler" Stevens on Sept 18, 2007 13:41:26 GMT -5
Then the roster got thinner, and now we're out of decently over midcarders, because the show has been focused on the World Titles and on the McMahons for such a long time that all the rest has become worthless at the eyes of the fans. I think this is definitely true. But what I just saw makes the problem worse. It was as far from a solution as you could get.
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Post by gmanquik on Sept 18, 2007 13:43:57 GMT -5
Then the roster got thinner, and now we're out of decently over midcarders, because the show has been focused on the World Titles and on the McMahons for such a long time that all the rest has become worthless at the eyes of the fans. I think this is definitely true. But what I just saw makes the problem worse. It was as far from a solution as you could get. Why are we all arguing? We are essentially saying the same thing, just in different wording. We all agree that there is a huge problem here, but the only difference between us is what the solution should be...when in reality, there is no solution, outside of a massive overnight mutiny. We all need to come to terms with that if anything is to ever change. Fighting each other is going nowhere, but damnit, we need to be sensible with this.
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Post by T.J. "the Crippler" Stevens on Sept 18, 2007 13:46:37 GMT -5
I'm not arguing, man. Just discussing. Bouncing my thoughts off of people. It's cool.
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