|
Post by TRUTH TELLER on Nov 29, 2007 23:12:43 GMT -5
How were they supposed to know RVD would smurf up like that back in 2002 (and arguably 2001)? That'd be like saying, I guess in retrospect Jackie O should have insisted JFK take a car with a roof. The facts as they had it at the time was that RVD was insanely over; arguably the most over babyface in the company at the time. My problem with that booking wasn't so much that Rob lost, but that the feud was over after one match. It buried Rob. Especially after WWE put RVD over so strong in months prior by having him absorb so many belts into the IC title. (a title HHH would "win" a month later, then never even acknowledge after the fact at No Mercy against Kane). As "brilliant" as HHH's 2002/03 run was, it actually put over only two guys. One of which was his best friend. And another who only got the belt after HHH tore his groin and went on his honeymoon. That first run did nothing for anyone who needed the rub. Now first off to the both of you this goes too. How can you say that title run was brilliant? I was being sarcastic. I put it in quotation marks to emphasize my sarcasm. It was a terrible reign. I was just being a smart-ass to the guy who put it over as being this great run, when it's always been pretty much universally panned by people.
|
|
nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,016
|
Post by nate5054 on Nov 29, 2007 23:33:47 GMT -5
I knew it too, but still it doesn't give you a free pass to go and break the law. IIRC, he got a ticket for the offense. Should we start busting wrestlers if they get caught speeding? Parking tickets? Jaywalking?
|
|
|
Post by imisswwf on Nov 29, 2007 23:44:14 GMT -5
I am REALLY glad I didn't watch WWE in 2002.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 30, 2007 0:41:32 GMT -5
How were they supposed to know RVD would smurf up like that back in 2002 (and arguably 2001)? That'd be like saying, I guess in retrospect Jackie O should have insisted JFK take a car with a roof. The facts as they had it at the time was that RVD was insanely over; arguably the most over babyface in the company at the time. My problem with that booking wasn't so much that Rob lost, but that the feud was over after one match. It buried Rob. Especially after WWE put RVD over so strong in months prior by having him absorb so many belts into the IC title. (a title HHH would "win" a month later, then never even acknowledge after the fact at No Mercy against Kane). As "brilliant" as HHH's 2002/03 run was, it actually put over only two guys. One of which was his best friend. And another who only got the belt after HHH tore his groin and went on his honeymoon. That first run did nothing for anyone who needed the rub. Now first off to the both of you this goes too. How can you say that title run was brilliant? The fans wanted him to loss because he was boring as hell and the storylines were pathic. It was one of the worst title runs in the WWE. Now in HHH defense on this. Look at that title run again. Mainly more the challengers he was facing. Outside of RVD and Booker T who else should have gotten the rub? Lets take a look at his challengers at the time: 1. RVD: who agreed should gotten the rub. 2. Kane: Should have won just to go though that crapty storyline but Kane at that time was very lame and weak. Even before Katie Vick. I mean Kane o ronee anyone? No. It wasn't until the unmasking before Kane could been taken seriously again. The who freaks are cool and crap. Kane was over but he was trying to be funny? 3. Shawn Michaels: He was great but unsure at that time still testing the back. So short title run was smart. 4. Scott Steiner: This man was horrible period. He was bad in the ring because his foot wasn't right. HHH should keep the title on that one. 5. Booker T: I agree it should been his time at WM. 6. Kevin Nash: Who in the hell would you want as champion. Nash or HHH. 7. Goldberg: he wins and still as the nerve to complain how "bad" he was treated. Even those he won. Goldberg is no great talent in the ring. As you can see most of the guys he face where name power only and because of that. A lot of those matches were bad. But HHH shouldn't be hold counted for them. Nobody has a great match with Steiner, Nash or Goldberg during there WWE runs. Now someone can though Jericho in this but Jericho was a heel. Which he was the number 2 heel on Raw and most of the guys who wasn't feuding with HHH feuded with him. I didn't say anything about his run. Hell, I think I've been quoted enough in this thread people assume I don't think they probably shoulda pulled the trigger on an RVD title run earlier. That's not the case. Shit he was the most over dude during the Invasion, he shoulda headlined against Austin, that'd have made them all kinds of money. What I was saying is that, given what did happen with them kneejerking the title off of him after he was pretty irresponsible, that's all the fuel detractors need to have to go " See?" I guess I shoulda clarified more. Woopsie.
|
|
|
Post by dh03grad on Nov 30, 2007 1:27:45 GMT -5
All I know is Edge as WWE Champion having sex with Lita wouldn't make headlines and make the company look bad. RVD as WWE champion getting arrested for driving with an illegal drug probably would. Also, the MITB was like a week after that news came out and they were always pushing Edge, sometimes even too hard. They wanted him to get the title regardless of who he had sex with. Hopefully I didn't start something I'll regret, offtopic too, I'll just keep my mouth shut from now on. The thing is, most people who don't watch wrestling when they see this little article about 'a wrestler was pulled over for smoking weed' aren't going to CARE. It's basically just another incident. Sure the guy was WWE champion at the time. But would they know that? Probably not. Would they care if they did? Again, probably not. Again, refer to Flair's Road Rage incident. Not only did people not GIVE two flips, the WWE actually GAVE him a goddamned Belt almost immediately afterwards. I think it was what? Less than a month, maybe month and a half after the road rage incident, that he wound up with the IC belt, and this was done right after they basically just had Edge make fun of it and then job out to Flair. This is the same company that gave its current WWE champion the biggest push of his career and the belt after being named in the steroid probe twice. The steroid bombshell is a much bigger story than the RVD post bust for obvious reasons.
|
|
|
Post by Loki on Nov 30, 2007 5:40:10 GMT -5
I think you missed my point completely. I said that in order to make new mega stars, established stars have to in turn put new people over. And regardless of whatever revisionist Bullcrap people say, RVD was incredibly over at that point. I don't necessarily think he should have been made Champion right there, but the fact was the feud lasted all of one match and then was dropped. It did RVD no good. True, established stars have to put new people over. But should that happen within the first year of their tenure? I've never denied RVD was over, but I still don't think every guy who's over should be automatically given a World Title. I got your point, but probably didn't word mine well. Triple H had just been given the belt, and the Title needed "validation". IMO nothing devalues a title more than it being thrown around. RVD was a new acquisition at that time, and as red hot as he was, WWE still needed to see how he'd have handled the jump from a pond (ECW) to the ocean (WWF). Being involved in the Invasion storyline, and not even as a walk-on, was already a way to put RVD over. Ditto for a mini-program with the Champion. Sidenote: I despised Triple H's reign of terror back in the day, but now I understand the reasons behind it and have learnt to appreciate Hunter's role and work.
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 30, 2007 6:31:57 GMT -5
I knew it too, but still it doesn't give you a free pass to go and break the law. IIRC, he got a ticket for the offense. Should we start busting wrestlers if they get caught speeding? Parking tickets? Jaywalking? Maybe so, but still as I said before if he knew management wasn't crazy about him and more than likely waiting for him to f*** up at any point, he should've been more careful. If I know management isn't crazy about me, I'd do everything in power not to f*** up the chance they gave me.
|
|
|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Nov 30, 2007 10:12:49 GMT -5
Just a couple of things:
1) RVD didn't screw up by smoking in his car and getting caught. He didn't mess up by getting it in the paper. WWE messed up by running from the situation instead of embracing it. If this had happened in 98, his old school smoker gimmick would've been brought back and he would've been a face. And since the illigalization of weed is a rediculous concept in and of itself to a GREAT deal of young people (myself included) it would've been over.
HHH's title reign in 02 was NOT a genius decision. He wasn't a champ people wanted to see lose so they paid money/tuned in to see it. His reign caused a lot of people to STOP watching the show. That's counter productive no matter who you are.
RVD probably maybe shouldnt've won the WHC in 02. HOWEVER, A longer, more even feud would've done him some justice and really helped develop HHH's "unbeatable" status. If the feud had been longer, maybe RVD should've won. I think it wasn't longer because HHH didn't want to have to work that hard. He didn't want to have to keep up with RVD. If you remember, HHH had some sucky matches in this period and only showed up to work for his friends.
That is all.
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 30, 2007 11:21:03 GMT -5
Just a couple of things: 1) RVD didn't screw up by smoking in his car and getting caught. He didn't mess up by getting it in the paper. WWE messed up by running from the situation instead of embracing it. If this had happened in 98, his old school smoker gimmick would've been brought back and he would've been a face. And since the illigalization of weed is a rediculous concept in and of itself to a GREAT deal of young people (myself included) it would've been over. Maybe so, but it wasn't and he screwed up. WWE wouldn't have just taken the belt off of him for no reason. I know a lot will say that's his gimmick and it is, but still it doesn't give him a green light to do as he wishes. Also, it bears repeating apparently, but he wasn't well-liked, so then his actions are under much scrutiny, so he should've been careful, which he wasn't.
|
|
Kae
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,610
|
Post by Kae on Nov 30, 2007 11:56:25 GMT -5
RVD annoys me. He keeps acting like the WWE and HHH held him down. When ECW was relaunched, he had two titles, including the WWE title! TWO! He then smoked weed with Sabu and got caught by the police, so they obviously had to strip him of them. Basically, RVD screwed RVD, and I wish he would man up and stop blaming Triple H. You make it sound like he was told years in advance that he would win two top titles. I don't really think he was complaining during or after the incident, but rather the many years before. That is true. I still think it's a little petty to complain about what happened in 2002, after he was booked to have a run at the top of the company. It's not like that incident meant he was held down permanently. It just seems like he always mentions how he was held down, rather than the fact that he HELD TWO TITLES.
|
|
Kae
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,610
|
Post by Kae on Nov 30, 2007 12:02:13 GMT -5
RVD didn't screw up by smoking in his car and getting caught. He didn't mess up by getting it in the paper. WWE messed up by running from the situation instead of embracing it. If this had happened in 98, his old school smoker gimmick would've been brought back and he would've been a face. And since the illigalization of weed is a rediculous concept in and of itself to a GREAT deal of young people (myself included) it would've been over. Except it wasn't 1998. The WWE had a lot of bad press about drug problems in the company after the death of Eddie Guerrero. They simply could not have kept the belt on a man who was busted for smoking pot AND had used it to push him as a face. Can you imagine the headlines? The backlash? Whether the law is logical or not (and, yeah, I agree it isn't), smoking pot is prosecuted pretty harshly in the US. People get sent to jail over possession on occasion. It's treated as a far more serious drug than it actually is.
|
|
|
Post by dh03grad on Nov 30, 2007 12:02:29 GMT -5
I think you missed my point completely. I said that in order to make new mega stars, established stars have to in turn put new people over. And regardless of whatever revisionist Bullcrap people say, RVD was incredibly over at that point. I don't necessarily think he should have been made Champion right there, but the fact was the feud lasted all of one match and then was dropped. It did RVD no good. True, established stars have to put new people over. But should that happen within the first year of their tenure? I've never denied RVD was over, but I still don't think every guy who's over should be automatically given a World Title. I got your point, but probably didn't word mine well. Triple H had just been given the belt, and the Title needed "validation". IMO nothing devalues a title more than it being thrown around. RVD was a new acquisition at that time, and as red hot as he was, WWE still needed to see how he'd have handled the jump from a pond (ECW) to the ocean (WWF). Being involved in the Invasion storyline, and not even as a walk-on, was already a way to put RVD over. Ditto for a mini-program with the Champion. Sidenote: I despised Triple H's reign of terror back in the day, but now I understand the reasons behind it and have learnt to appreciate Hunter's role and work.
|
|
|
Post by dh03grad on Nov 30, 2007 12:04:01 GMT -5
RVD didn't screw up by smoking in his car and getting caught. He didn't mess up by getting it in the paper. WWE messed up by running from the situation instead of embracing it. If this had happened in 98, his old school smoker gimmick would've been brought back and he would've been a face. And since the illigalization of weed is a rediculous concept in and of itself to a GREAT deal of young people (myself included) it would've been over. Except it wasn't 1998. The WWE had a lot of bad press about drug problems in the company after the death of Eddie Guerrero. They simply could not have kept the belt on a man who was busted for smoking pot AND had used it to push him as a face. Can you imagine the headlines? The backlash? Whether the law is logical or not (and, yeah, I agree it isn't), smoking pot is prosecuted pretty harshly in the US. People get sent to jail over possession on occasion. It's treated as a far more serious drug than it actually is. Is there any headlines of outrage over the WWE champion being Randy Orton? Thought so. WWE stripped the title and buried RVD because they wanted to and they had the perfect excuse to do so.
|
|
Kae
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,610
|
Post by Kae on Nov 30, 2007 12:13:17 GMT -5
Is there any headlines of outrage over the WWE champion being Randy Orton? Thought so. WWE stripped the title and buried RVD because they wanted to and they had the perfect excuse to do so. Sure, it's a double standard. Orton's problems have to do with him being aggressive. He trashes hotel rooms and vandalizes diva's possessions. Aggression is not viewed as a bad quality in a wrestler, especially in a heel. That's why they also overlooked Flair's road rage. * RVD's problems have to do with drugs. Ever since Eddie's death, drugs and steroids have been the big bogeymen in wrestling. The WWE is a hell of a lot more cautious about them than they are about aggression. * Rhyno would be a counterexample, of course. That's the main-eventer/midcarder double standard, though.
|
|
|
Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Nov 30, 2007 12:14:54 GMT -5
1) RVD didn't screw up by smoking in his car and getting caught. He didn't mess up by getting it in the paper. WWE messed up by running from the situation instead of embracing it. If this had happened in 98, his old school smoker gimmick would've been brought back and he would've been a face. And since the illigalization of weed is a rediculous concept in and of itself to a GREAT deal of young people (myself included) it would've been over. If you're a company concerned about rebounding from poor press like the WWE was, you don't embrace your world champion getting busted for drug possession. And now that I think about it, I can't see them embracing an incident like that during Attitude. It would be rather irresponsible.
|
|
BHB
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,778
|
Post by BHB on Nov 30, 2007 12:21:21 GMT -5
RVD was as over as anybody i think thats why he feels he shouldve got a run, and i agree.The guy was getting Austin pops during the invasion. RVD annoys me. He keeps acting like the WWE and HHH held him down. When ECW was relaunched, he had two titles, including the WWE title! TWO! He then smoked weed with Sabu and got caught by the police, so they obviously had to strip him of them. Basically, RVD screwed RVD, and I wish he would man up and stop blaming Triple H. He didn't win the WWE title until years after he deserved it and years after HHH buried him.
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 30, 2007 12:24:58 GMT -5
RVD annoys me. He keeps acting like the WWE and HHH held him down. When ECW was relaunched, he had two titles, including the WWE title! TWO! He then smoked weed with Sabu and got caught by the police, so they obviously had to strip him of them. Basically, RVD screwed RVD, and I wish he would man up and stop blaming Triple H. He didn't win the WWE title until years after he deserved it and years after HHH buried him. Maybe,maybe not. Trips just had the belt for 3 weeks at the time and it wouldn't exactly bring prestige if the belt is being switched back and forth at breakneck speed.
|
|
|
Post by dh03grad on Nov 30, 2007 13:10:28 GMT -5
Is there any headlines of outrage over the WWE champion being Randy Orton? Thought so. WWE stripped the title and buried RVD because they wanted to and they had the perfect excuse to do so. Sure, it's a double standard. Orton's problems have to do with him being aggressive. He trashes hotel rooms and vandalizes diva's possessions. Aggression is not viewed as a bad quality in a wrestler, especially in a heel. That's why they also overlooked Flair's road rage. * RVD's problems have to do with drugs. Ever since Eddie's death, drugs and steroids have been the big bogeymen in wrestling. The WWE is a hell of a lot more cautious about them than they are about aggression. * Rhyno would be a counterexample, of course. That's the main-eventer/midcarder double standard, though. Where have you been this year? Randy was named in two different steroid busts this year. Even though he wasnt prosecuted like he could have been, it was easily more serious than RVD getting a $50 ticket for pot possession.
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Nov 30, 2007 13:23:03 GMT -5
Sure, it's a double standard. Orton's problems have to do with him being aggressive. He trashes hotel rooms and vandalizes diva's possessions. Aggression is not viewed as a bad quality in a wrestler, especially in a heel. That's why they also overlooked Flair's road rage. * RVD's problems have to do with drugs. Ever since Eddie's death, drugs and steroids have been the big bogeymen in wrestling. The WWE is a hell of a lot more cautious about them than they are about aggression. * Rhyno would be a counterexample, of course. That's the main-eventer/midcarder double standard, though. Where have you been this year? Randy was named in two different steroid busts this year. Even though he wasnt prosecuted like he could have been, it was easily more serious than RVD getting a $50 ticket for pot possession. Again, there is double standards there as Orton is probably more liked than RVD, therefore he could get away with more than he could. Still, knowing that RVD should've been more careful as that was all the ammo they needed to get the belts off of him.
|
|
|
Post by britishbulldog on Nov 30, 2007 13:27:57 GMT -5
Ok time for a reality check. I don't mind RVD however. The guy was not that great. HE WAS GREAT IN ECW NOT WWE. I think his moveset never worked that well in the wwf ring which is bigger. He always looked sloppy in the ring and I would say near the end his popularity was falling.
Another thing that drives me crazy is what is wrong with being the #2 face or heel. There was a time when that was a big deal. Go ask TIto how much he minded being second to Hogan. i am sure his bank account was quite happy with it
|
|