|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Dec 1, 2007 16:58:24 GMT -5
pro wrestling decline begins 2002.... ... because: A) RVD didn't get the WHC title? B) Triple H held the WHC title a bit too much? C) the Attitude Era Wrestling Fad died and WWE came back into its little niche where it had been since the end of the Rock 'n' Wrestling Fad? I vote C I think it was a combo of the 3. B more than the others but RVD could've done some big things then
|
|
|
Post by Psy on Dec 1, 2007 20:10:58 GMT -5
Given the way he F'ed himself over when they did give him the spotlight, it kinda looks like they made the right decision to not go to him earlier. Just sayin. I agree, and I'm a fan of RVD.
|
|
|
Post by supercheese on Dec 1, 2007 20:44:40 GMT -5
Really RVD was not long into the company at the time...How many of the people paying for merchandise knew who he was? Only the people who had been familiar with ECW. Remember at the time of the Invasion there was ECW fans and WCW fans tuning in to see what happened. After the story ended, many felt the product was bad and watched something else, the majority of the fans did not know who RVD was, or thought it was cool that he was on drugs. I was 13 at the time and didn't think it was all amazing that some guy smokes weed.
Triple H deserved the title regardless or what people think. He might have held RVD down. But is RVD a better wrestler than Triple H? Hell no. More flexible and more of a high flyer, but who looked more like a champion? Triple H or Rvd? Answers on a postcard to the usual address. Unless you're an RVD mark, you'd say Triple H.
|
|
|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Dec 1, 2007 22:26:54 GMT -5
Really RVD was not long into the company at the time...How many of the people paying for merchandise knew who he was? Only the people who had been familiar with ECW. Remember at the time of the Invasion there was ECW fans and WCW fans tuning in to see what happened. After the story ended, many felt the product was bad and watched something else, the majority of the fans did not know who RVD was, or thought it was cool that he was on drugs. I was 13 at the time and didn't think it was all amazing that some guy smokes weed. Triple H deserved the title regardless or what people think. He might have held RVD down. But is RVD a better wrestler than Triple H? Hell no. More flexible and more of a high flyer, but who looked more like a champion? Triple H or Rvd? Answers on a postcard to the usual address. Unless you're an RVD mark, you'd say Triple H. RVD had a lot of steam until then. He had some from his ECW days, yes. But he trancended ECW. I knew who RVD was without even SEEING ECW. He proved who he was to the WWF fans instantly. He had great match after great match and his momentum continued though him and Austin and past Invasion. He was with the company for over a year and people KNEW who he was. People watched for him. He was definately "known" by the merchandise buying public. And I'm not an RVD mark, really. In fact after that HHH story he had, I thought his matches suffered from staleness. He and Jeff started phoning it in on a lot of occasions and with good reason. HHH was NOT the best man for the job of champ at the time. Not while he/Steph were taking over the show backstage. There wasn't an impartial person involved in the decision making. HHH could've handed the belt over to Kane or Booker. He did not, I repeat DID NOT do thing number one to bring anyone up to make them viable contenders for his belt and the people who were already there (Kane/Book) or ALMOST there (RVD/Hardy) he made look like jabrones. That's why RAW sucked then. Hunter demolished all opponents' credibility. Well, not all of them. He did made his buddies look good. He made Steiner and Goldberg look good. Other than that, no one had a chance. That's where people fault him. We wanted to see a good show and cvouldn't cause there wasn't one to watch with him/Steph in charge at that time.
|
|
Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,790
Member is Online
|
Post by Ben Wyatt on Dec 1, 2007 23:55:10 GMT -5
He didn't win the WWE title until years after he deserved it and years after HHH buried him. Maybe,maybe not. Trips just had the belt for 3 weeks at the time and it wouldn't exactly bring prestige if the belt is being switched back and forth at breakneck speed. Agreed. Now, had RVD and HHH feuded a few months down the line, an argument can be made that RVD should have been considered
|
|
|
Post by TRUTH TELLER on Dec 2, 2007 1:14:06 GMT -5
Just for the record, I don't think a lot of us RVD defenders are saying that Rob should have gotten the World Title that quickly, just that the feud should have lasted longer than one PPV, only for Hunter to immediately move on to someone else. It was terrible business. This type of inane booking was the benchmark for HHH's 2002-2003 reign. His opponents always came out looking WORSE than they came in, and that's not supposed to happen when you're a heel. I can't believe some of you don't see that. It's not a matter of Triple H deserving a title or being better than RVD. It's about making money and being over. And for whatever reason, RVD caught fire (no pun intended) in 2001-2002. Go back and listen to the reactions he had. The person a few posts ago who said no one knew who he was has no idea what they're talking about. Rob was arguably the most popular guy during the Invasion. His pops were insanely huge.
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 2, 2007 7:03:30 GMT -5
Just for the record, I don't think a lot of us RVD defenders are saying that Rob should have gotten the World Title that quickly, just that the feud should have lasted longer than one PPV, only for Hunter to immediately move on to someone else. It was terrible business. This type of inane booking was the benchmark for HHH's 2002-2003 reign. His opponents always came out looking WORSE than they came in, and that's not supposed to happen when you're a heel. I can't believe some of you don't see that. It's not a matter of Triple H deserving a title or being better than RVD. It's about making money and being over. And for whatever reason, RVD caught fire (no pun intended) in 2001-2002. Go back and listen to the reactions he had. The person a few posts ago who said no one knew who he was has no idea what they're talking about. Rob was arguably the most popular guy during the Invasion. His pops were insanely huge. I do agree that his opponents came out looking worse than they came in, but as RVD was his first title defense for Trips, he had to win it.
|
|
|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Dec 2, 2007 13:30:14 GMT -5
Just for the record, I don't think a lot of us RVD defenders are saying that Rob should have gotten the World Title that quickly, just that the feud should have lasted longer than one PPV, only for Hunter to immediately move on to someone else. It was terrible business. This type of inane booking was the benchmark for HHH's 2002-2003 reign. His opponents always came out looking WORSE than they came in, and that's not supposed to happen when you're a heel. I can't believe some of you don't see that. It's not a matter of Triple H deserving a title or being better than RVD. It's about making money and being over. And for whatever reason, RVD caught fire (no pun intended) in 2001-2002. Go back and listen to the reactions he had. The person a few posts ago who said no one knew who he was has no idea what they're talking about. Rob was arguably the most popular guy during the Invasion. His pops were insanely huge. I do agree that his opponents came out looking worse than they came in, but as RVD was his first title defense for Trips, he had to win it. That's the GENERAL conscensus (sp?) RVD's fire was put out early and swiftly by HHH in 02. THAT was the problem people had. He could've gotten away with a one and out PPV defense against...Jeff Hardy for instance. Especially if it was pulled off the way Jeff/Taker was (BOTH GUYS looked like a million bucks afterward and that was a HUGE thing as Taker's matches suffered at that point too.) Hell even if HHH had made RVD look like such a good contender, he BARELY squeaked away with the belt and avoids RVD at all costs afterwards, a 1 and out match would've been acceptable. Hunter just threw RVD to the wolves and killed a lot of steam he'd have had as a contender further down the line. If you notcie, around this time, Hunter's VIABLE contender pool was very slim to none. Nash- His buddy but near the end of his career so you knew he wouldn't win. He made him look good. HBK- His buddy and ended up trading belts with him. He made him look good. Actually Shawn out performed him most of the time Ric- His mentor and made him look like a million bucks for his one and out match on RAW. THIS would've made a good PPV match maybe. But Ric hadn't had many good matches at this point either. Goldberg- Vince spent a bunch of money on this guy a few years too late and for a change, HHH had no chance but to make this guy look good. If he had sandbagged Goldberg like he did D'Lo, Jeff and others, he'd OFFICIALLY sink the company and Goldberg might kill him Steiner- (See Goldberg sans the killing part) Other than that, he sand bagged everyone he was in the ring with and killed the momentum of... D'Lo (though he didn't have any, he could've worked with it and we all know it), jeff, RVD, Bubba, Book, Kane, Y2J... All former champions of some kind. All talented workers (on some level) all had momentum to spare (Even Bubba and even Bradshaw which was hard to fathom at the time) and he killed all of it. Anything I miss?
|
|
|
Post by Gillberg: 0-175 on Dec 2, 2007 13:49:06 GMT -5
I do agree that his opponents came out looking worse than they came in, but as RVD was his first title defense for Trips, he had to win it. That's the GENERAL conscensus (sp?) RVD's fire was put out early and swiftly by HHH in 02. THAT was the problem people had. He could've gotten away with a one and out PPV defense against...Jeff Hardy for instance. Especially if it was pulled off the way Jeff/Taker was (BOTH GUYS looked like a million bucks afterward and that was a HUGE thing as Taker's matches suffered at that point too.) Hell even if HHH had made RVD look like such a good contender, he BARELY squeaked away with the belt and avoids RVD at all costs afterwards, a 1 and out match would've been acceptable. Hunter just threw RVD to the wolves and killed a lot of steam he'd have had as a contender further down the line. If you notcie, around this time, Hunter's VIABLE contender pool was very slim to none. Nash- His buddy but near the end of his career so you knew he wouldn't win. He made him look good. HBK- His buddy and ended up trading belts with him. He made him look good. Actually Shawn out performed him most of the time Ric- His mentor and made him look like a million bucks for his one and out match on RAW. THIS would've made a good PPV match maybe. But Ric hadn't had many good matches at this point either. Goldberg- Vince spent a bunch of money on this guy a few years too late and for a change, HHH had no chance but to make this guy look good. If he had sandbagged Goldberg like he did D'Lo, Jeff and others, he'd OFFICIALLY sink the company and Goldberg might kill him Steiner- (See Goldberg sans the killing part) Other than that, he sand bagged everyone he was in the ring with and killed the momentum of... D'Lo (though he didn't have any, he could've worked with it and we all know it), jeff, RVD, Bubba, Book, Kane, Y2J... All former champions of some kind. All talented workers (on some level) all had momentum to spare (Even Bubba and even Bradshaw which was hard to fathom at the time) and he killed all of it. Anything I miss? YOU MISSED THE PART WHERE RVD IS A BITTER TITLE WHORE!!!!![/sarcasm] You hit the nail on the head. Everyone is just looking into this too deeply to start arguements. How fun.
|
|
|
Post by supercheese on Dec 2, 2007 23:38:41 GMT -5
Even if you look at it, there were a helluva lot of people more deserving than RVD for the title. The fact they never put the title on RVD for a few years later might show they did not think he was ready. Nothing to do with Hunter. He was a great champion, a heel who people hated. Is that so wrong in wrestling?
|
|
|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Dec 3, 2007 8:05:04 GMT -5
Even if you look at it, there were a helluva lot of people more deserving than RVD for the title. The fact they never put the title on RVD for a few years later might show they did not think he was ready. Nothing to do with Hunter. He was a great champion, a heel who people hated. Is that so wrong in wrestling? it is when you drive away business
|
|
|
Post by Loki on Dec 3, 2007 8:19:02 GMT -5
Saying that business went down because RVD wasn't given a World Title around 2001-2 is quite an adventurous hypothesis... Business went down because the novelty of the Attitude Era was gone, and with it the tons of bandwagon fans. Without the WCW-WWE rivalry and with the over-the-top storylines having been "accepted", wrestling was back in its niche. RVD, Kane, Booker T, Y2J, nobody would have been able to invert the trend. Maybe D'Lo would have though
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Dec 3, 2007 12:37:46 GMT -5
Even if you look at it, there were a helluva lot of people more deserving than RVD for the title. The fact they never put the title on RVD for a few years later might show they did not think he was ready. Nothing to do with Hunter. He was a great champion, a heel who people hated. Is that so wrong in wrestling? it is when you drive away business I don't think Triple-H's title reign was the sole reason for business going down in 02. Has that been proven? As it seems really easy to say that as he was champ at the time on Raw.
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 3, 2007 12:55:50 GMT -5
Saying that business went down because RVD wasn't given a World Title around 2001-2 is quite an adventurous hypothesis... Business went down because the novelty of the Attitude Era was gone, and with it the tons of bandwagon fans. Without the WCW-WWE rivalry and with the over-the-top storylines having been "accepted", wrestling was back in its niche. RVD, Kane, Booker T, Y2J, nobody would have been able to invert the trend. Maybe D'Lo would have though *pimp slaps Loki* Don't talk down at the Brown!
|
|
|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Dec 4, 2007 9:49:37 GMT -5
Saying that business went down because RVD wasn't given a World Title around 2001-2 is quite an adventurous hypothesis... Business went down because the novelty of the Attitude Era was gone, and with it the tons of bandwagon fans. Without the WCW-WWE rivalry and with the over-the-top storylines having been "accepted", wrestling was back in its niche. RVD, Kane, Booker T, Y2J, nobody would have been able to invert the trend. Maybe D'Lo would have though HHH had a major role in that, though. The match quality was bad, the stories were HORRIBLE and not only was he champ but who was starting to take over backstage around this time?... Was it the boss' daughter? Her live in boyfriend? I'm not blaming him as champ so much as his backstage power. And with a proper buildup, ANYONE can be a success. We've seen it before.
|
|
|
Post by RedSmile on Dec 4, 2007 9:59:33 GMT -5
Ahh good old HUNTOR conspiracies... Just like old times.
|
|
|
Post by dh03grad on Dec 4, 2007 10:38:31 GMT -5
Saying that business went down because RVD wasn't given a World Title around 2001-2 is quite an adventurous hypothesis... Business went down because the novelty of the Attitude Era was gone, and with it the tons of bandwagon fans. Without the WCW-WWE rivalry and with the over-the-top storylines having been "accepted", wrestling was back in its niche. RVD, Kane, Booker T, Y2J, nobody would have been able to invert the trend. Maybe D'Lo would have though Thats BS. Business dropped because the people handpicked to carry the ball after Rock and Austin started to fade away werent interesting enough to maintain the fan base. WWE tried and tried to push HHH as a Flair type heel to poor results for over 2 years. HHH is and always has been best suited as one of the supporting guys to the guy thats carrying the company. Not as "the man".
|
|
|
Post by Deadman Inc on Dec 4, 2007 11:24:44 GMT -5
I love when people discuss HHH's lengthy title reign, they fail to mention what good came out of it.
Tearing apart Evolution and making Batista credible when beforehand he really was lacking. Orton even got the chance to push the threshold into main event status that propelled him towards where he is today.
And by good, I don't necessarily mean by our standards of good, since many of the IWC do not like Orton and Batista currently, but from the standpoint of the buisness building both them up towards credible main-eventers was a solid decision.
I think alot of the hatred over RVD/Booker not getting the rub from HHH back then is fan-wank. I think myself and alot of other people had a hard time buying into them as credible world title canditates, even despite the fact that Booker had an established history with the WCW belt, I just never saw him back then as in the same league as Rock, Austin, Angle, and HHH. He always came across as a bit sloppy in the ring to me. RVD was definetly way over, but I had no qualms with him not getting the title. He didn't feel on the same level as the people HHH had successful fueds with at the time (Nash, Batista, HBK, Goldberg).
I'll definetly give you Kane. He was super over during that period and definetly deserved a real title run.
I think if you compared HHH's run vs Cena's you'll see a startling difference. Cena's reign infuriated the IWC to no end because he constantly devoured everyone he was pitted against and rarely made anyone look good (Edge on a few occassions, but even then with the rapidness and ease that he recovered the belt made it almost seem like a joke.) The fact the Cena's reign was ended not to losing to a credible competitor but to injury even further shows the disparity between the two reigns. HHH definetly passed the torch to Batista when he lost it and made him look solid, something that propelled him into a period where he was well over with the fans.
|
|
|
Post by David Troy a.k.a legendmythman on Dec 5, 2007 9:12:31 GMT -5
I love when people discuss HHH's lengthy title reign, they fail to mention what good came out of it. Tearing apart Evolution and making Batista credible when beforehand he really was lacking. Orton even got the chance to push the threshold into main event status that propelled him towards where he is today. And by good, I don't necessarily mean by our standards of good, since many of the IWC do not like Orton and Batista currently, but from the standpoint of the buisness building both them up towards credible main-eventers was a solid decision. I think alot of the hatred over RVD/Booker not getting the rub from HHH back then is fan-wank. I think myself and alot of other people had a hard time buying into them as credible world title canditates, even despite the fact that Booker had an established history with the WCW belt, I just never saw him back then as in the same league as Rock, Austin, Angle, and HHH. He always came across as a bit sloppy in the ring to me. RVD was definetly way over, but I had no qualms with him not getting the title. He didn't feel on the same level as the people HHH had successful fueds with at the time (Nash, Batista, HBK, Goldberg). I'll definetly give you Kane. He was super over during that period and definetly deserved a real title run. I think if you compared HHH's run vs Cena's you'll see a startling difference. Cena's reign infuriated the IWC to no end because he constantly devoured everyone he was pitted against and rarely made anyone look good (Edge on a few occassions, but even then with the rapidness and ease that he recovered the belt made it almost seem like a joke.) The fact the Cena's reign was ended not to losing to a credible competitor but to injury even further shows the disparity between the two reigns. HHH definetly passed the torch to Batista when he lost it and made him look solid, something that propelled him into a period where he was well over with the fans. I'll agree there's a diff between HHH and Cena's reigns. But Not a HUGE one. HHH lost the belt to Goldberg cause hee was guarenteed a title reign in his contract and Only made his buddies look good. Cena doesn't make too many people look good but I don't think he truly know how to. Hunter does. The Evolution thing came around when the stories were getting good again and the wrestling was getting better. They were getting out of that slump they dug themselves into. There was a dramatic swing between the summer of 03 and WMXX when RAW HAD to get better because Smackdown was kicking it's ass. Yes, he did give the rub to Evolution after giving it to Benoit. But they're by no means "great talents". Hell, when he gave it to Orton, a lot of people were upset. Not that he did it. But that it was too soon for Randy. Most people were cool with Batista's timing but he's just a big lug in the ring. The thinking that Book and RVD couldn't have been big players is why there's a notion that anybody not "made by WWF/E" can't get a fair shake and it's not true. I think the people would've gotten behind Booker had he not been destroyed by Hunter the way he was. He didn't build anyone up. They weren't written to really be contenders. They seemed to be written as mere fodder. And that's why people got upset AND turneed off their tvs
|
|
|
Post by ghettooverlord on Dec 5, 2007 11:40:43 GMT -5
It’s time to flame The Game Time to flame The Game! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha Ha, ha, ha
It’s all about The Game, and how you blame him All about the troll, and if you desecrate him All about respect, and if you can pay it He isn’t Bret Hart, so he’s not gonna make it
He is The Game, and you’re gonna blame him He is the troll, and you’ll desecrate him All about respect, no way you will pay it He isn’t Bret Hart, so you know he will take it
Look at the next poster, ready to run (his mouth) Throwin’ down the flames, like a smoking gun He is The Game, and pisses off the noobs So go all-out, and you can cry like a fool Try and figure out what the flame’s gonna be Come on over, why don’t you PM me? Don’t forget there’s a card you can play Cause I am the The Game and someone called me gay
|
|