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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 9, 2007 6:07:25 GMT -5
To be fair, in a shoot interview...I just saw yesterday that Barry Windham was posed with the question of "Who's the most overrated wrestler?", and he answered "Barry Windham".
He reasoned that guys like Flair, Hogan, Steamboat, Austin, Dusty, etc. all held him in such a high regard as a talent, yet Windham never amounted to what he could've during the 1990s boom. Scott Hall even got his start in the business by meeting Windham at the grocery store as a fanboy (Hall's story) and Windham/Rotunda helped train him.
I disagree with Windham's personal assessment, but it was cool to see that a guy wasn't such a mark for himself in a shoot. Windham was a major 1980s talent that fizzled out after years of bad business decisions (jumping promotions with terrible timing), but that guy could work. From 1985-88, anything in the ring with Windham was gold.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 8, 2007 10:43:19 GMT -5
I got two. Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart. You say one's overrated, people assume you're a mark for the other, but the fact is they both aren't nearly as good as they're supposed to be. Tkae Bret Hart. "Greatest technical wrestler." I'm not so sure about that. Call me extra old-school, but for me technical wrestling starts and stops at chain wrestling. And Bret's wasn't nearly as good was the guys who came up through Britain. Ditto for all the other Hart-trained wrestlers, included he who shall not be named. Furthermore, the way Bret put matches together was IMHO hackneyed. He gave Flair heat for doing the same match every night. Which is bascially true. But Flair had a basic adaptable routine that he'd custom-craft to the night and venue and (a little bit) to his opponent. One long narrative that varied in its details. Hart, on the other hand, never wrestled the same match twice. But he'd build matches out of a basic set of building blocks. The last one would be his five moves of doom comeback, and the ones in between would be some assortment of rehearsed "bits" put together in one order or another. To my taste, Hart never wrestled a match. He wrestled a concatenation of 3 or 10 small pre-rehearsed matches that seldom flushed together well to tell a story. I've already written a lot, so I'll save my heat on Michaels for later. But suffice it to say that both have this uber-technician reputation that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. And they both presided over the down years of the WWF in the early 90's which ought to count for something against them. So if someone asks you who do you like better, Hart or Michaels, your answer should be "NO." See, what people who criticize Hart like this often conveniently overlook, is that his matches often did not end with the Sharpshooter. It wasn't too uncommon for them to end with Hart pulling out some kind of unexpected roll up pin, for instance. Sure, it's easy to look back now and nitpick and find some sameness in his matches, but his title defenses were a hell of a lot less predictable than Hogan's, which always ended with a hulk up, followed by a leg drop. I'm not disagreeing with your post, just disagreeing Bret Hart in general (re: Flair). I guarantee that Bret Hart ended more matches with the Sharpshooter in a five-year span than Ric Flair ended with the Figure Four over 30+ years. When Flair called a match, he took the crowd on a ride. When Hart called a match, he took the crowd on a tour towards "Generic Bret Match #....) And Bret was 1,000X the champion as Hogan as far as title matches. |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 21:47:32 GMT -5
# WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Randy Savage (February 11, 1996); # WCW United States title defeating Konnan (July 7, 1996); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Hulk Hogan (March 14, 1999); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Jeff Jarrett (May 15, 2000); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Kevin Nash (May 29, 2000); 3 of those titles were during the Vusso is an idiot era, and lasted way too short to matter. So realistically, he held the belt once when he didn't have a friend in charge of WCW/NWA. I rest my case. I didn't catch this misinformation from earlier. Russo didn't book the March 14, 1999 title run, so that was wrong. Only two of Flair's reigns were due to wacky Russo booking. Plus, that 1999 reign was when Bischoff, Nash, and Sullivan were in control (only one of whom is a "Flair friend" and the least powerful member of the team. Nevermind the fact that Bischoff tried to sue Flair for $$millions months earlier). Bischoff was around less and less at that time, but he still had to approve it. That was the title run when a reunited red-and-white NWO was feuding with Flair, and brought his family (David) into it, and for some reason, Flair and Hogan did a double-turn angle when Flair won...which eventually led Flair into an insane asylum storyline and Hogan back to the red and yellow for the first time since 1996. |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 20:59:45 GMT -5
Sting.
Bleach John Cena's hair, paint his face, give him some flourescent pants and pink boots, and what do you have? ...I don't know, but it'd be much better than Sting in his athletic prime.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 20:50:54 GMT -5
Hacksaw Doogan, I have to ask: are you actually a Terry Gordy mark, or is it just a clever sig? I'm a Gordy mark. Started watching wrestling when I was five (1986) and The Freebirds were working as faces on our Saturday morning World Class show (on their way out), and heels for UWF Wednesday nights on SportsChannel. I always thought that was weird, but cool. Plus, when my family was on vacation in '88, we saw Gordy at the Atlanta airport, and he autographed a picture of his inside a PWI that I luckily had on me (to read on the plane). He was great in the ring, IMO. I bought a 6-hour "Best of the Birds" VHS tape off eBay a couple years back, and his UWF title defenses on there against DiBiase, Duggan, Terry Taylor, and Dr. Death were really top notch...and he kept getting better and better, and adding more moves every time he returned from Japan. |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 20:22:00 GMT -5
I remember hearing a rumor that at Clash of Champions in January 91 that Flair wanted Scott Steiner to go over him in their match, but Scott turned it down and they went with a time limit draw instead. Yeah, I've heard that too. Flair always did like The Steiners, as evidenced to him pushing them to the moon after Scotty debuted. In Scott's shoot though, he was talking about how he always couldn't stand Flair because he wouldn't move aside consistently for younger talent, wasn't a "real" athlete, was a kissass, and a crybaby. Either way, Flair was a great in-ring performer. I don't like seeing backstage stuff taint a guy's reputation or workrate. Shawn Michaels is the same way, whether or not he was the leader of "the Kliq" is immaterial. The guy could really work a match. Personally, I hold the most respect for the guys that I could watch work a match against ANY opponent. I could watch Flair and Michaels work any opponent, even now. I can't say that for HHH, and I waffle on whether I could say that for Bret Hart. Michaels could pull a good match out of Sid Vicious in the mid-1990s, and Flair pulled a decent match out of JYD in 1990 or 1991, two honors that no other worker on the planet can really boast. And those performances had nothing to do with backstage politics. |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 19:56:38 GMT -5
# WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Randy Savage (February 11, 1996); # WCW United States title defeating Konnan (July 7, 1996); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Hulk Hogan (March 14, 1999); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Jeff Jarrett (May 15, 2000); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Kevin Nash (May 29, 2000); 3 of those titles were during the Vusso is an idiot era, and lasted way too short to matter. So realistically, he held the belt once when he didn't have a friend in charge of WCW/NWA. I rest my case. Did you NOT read my post regarding Flair and Dusty? Just because Flair and Rhodes are friendly now in "WWE DVD Land" does NOT mean they were pals/cronies when Dusty booked. In 1988, Flair went to the Turner office and said "him or me" re: Dusty, when Dusty booked RICK STEINER to beat Flair for the NWA World Title at Starrcade '88. That might sound like Flair being a baby, but it was an incredibly stupid idea by Dusty. Steiner had never won a title in NWA, and was a newly turned lower midcarder. It'd be like Jarrett putting the TNA Title on Eric Young over Kurt Angle, or McMahon putting the WWE Title on Cody Rhodes over Shawn Michaels. Flair got Dusty fired, and would've done it since after Starrcade '83, when Dusty took over JCP's "Executive Producer" role and pushed Steamboat, Valentine, and Piper out of the territory to bring in Dusty's pals like Magnum TA, Tully Blanchard, and Black Bart. Flair and Rhodes were both very close to Jim Crockett, and it's no surprise that in late-1988 after Crockett sold to Turner, Flair and Dusty each tried to eradicate each other from the company. Those in power at TBS kept Ric Flair, and it wasn't even a hard decision. He was the best wrestler in the country. The Flair/Dusty/Rick Steiner thing is also the seed as to why Scotty Steiner eventually hated Flair forever, BTW (and the fact that Flair has had flabby boobies since 1994.) You can rest your case, but I have no idea why. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the "Flair only got the world title once when his friends weren't in charge". This is absolutely not true, no matter how much Flair and Dusty butter each other up 20 years later during HOF ceremonies and on DVD. |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 19:37:46 GMT -5
Shane Douglas in ECW was a good choice, too. And no, not because I just went on a long-pro Ric Flair rant. Douglas had some real clunkers in the ring. It's almost laughable that Douglas was so bitter, and used to blame everyone in the business for why he wasn't a bigger star, but maybe he should've looked in a mirror, or watched some of his own tapes. Anybody ever see the Douglas-Tully Blanchard broadway for the ECW Title? Ouch.
He was a decent interview, but still doesn't know how to cut a promo if he can't swear.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 19:32:08 GMT -5
Ric Flair is/was a decent worker. But the whole "16 time champ" crap is rediculous. He had those belts because he kissed ass, cried like a girl, and had his friends booking him to win these belts. Flair may have been a 3 or 4 time champ without political stroke. But with it, the man gets 16. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Save for the short Kerry Von Erich, Ronnie Garvin, and Dusty Rhodes reigns, Flair held the NWA World Title continuously from 1984-early 1989 (the prime of his career). During this time, Jim Crockett Promotions became the official "home" of the NWA title. Who was booking JCP? Dusty Rhodes. Time heals old wounds, but back in the 1980s, Flair and Dusty did NOT get along backstage, as Dusty was always sort of resentful/jealous of Flair, and Flair was semi-resentful that Dusty helped create the Four Horseman for the purpose of bump machines for mega-babyface Dusty, and booked to look like an incredibly weak champion. I'm not sure where you're getting your "friends booking him to win these belts" from. After Dusty left NWA after JCP's sale to Turner, yeah, Flair booked himself a title reign or two, but then was out, because Jim Herd didn't like him. But Herd respected him enough to let him have the strap. Flair also had a mercurial relationship with Bischoff, but was respected enough to get the strap then, too. To what are you referring as Flair's "friends"? Terry Taylor and Kevin Sullivan? Look, Flair was Flair long before Terry Taylor and Kevin Sullivan booked WCW. If you're referring to the old school NWA board of directors as Flair's "friends", keep in mind that most of them would rather give the belts to their sons or their territory's top star, but handed Flair the ball because he could go. For most overrated, how 'bout Bret Hart? I've always liked Bret more than Shawn Michaels for some reason, but Michaels could work circles around Bret. In fact, I'd rather watch a 1994 Razor Ramon match than a Bret match. I saw a Bret/Martel match on MSG Classics last week that was freaking brutal. "Best There is..." is just a marketable catchphrase. Not gospel. However, HHH is the most overrated of all-time. Harley Race is pretty overrated, too. From what I've seen in the 1970s, as workers, Terry Funk and Jack Brisco make Race look like Sid Vicious. |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 13, 2007 5:48:53 GMT -5
Question: Did Ricky Banderas debut? No. They're probably saving him to screw Abyss when he fights Angle next month at the PPV. |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 22:14:13 GMT -5
I know he isnt the head booker, but that main event ending was Russo-tastic Or, "Russorrible"... |
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 21:54:27 GMT -5
Haha. At the end, it's now a presentation from "TNA Entertainment", not "TNA Wrestling".
How appropriate, except for the small fact that I wasn't entertained. TNA isn't gonna get a single cent of my money ever again. And I've ordered since 2003.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 21:37:25 GMT -5
This match is such garbage with the Angle's family crap.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 21:30:31 GMT -5
Why is Joe expending energy heading immediately into the "biggest match of his career" by having a Samoan hoedown before the match?
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 21:26:57 GMT -5
Haha, they have a "Tale of the Tape"...with NO MEASUREMENTS.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 21:25:47 GMT -5
They should call this new chick "Leticia", and treat it like the two Darrens on "Bewitched".
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 21:22:20 GMT -5
Why in the SMURF would Christian leave? Isn't the only thing that he cares about is being "the champ"?
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 21:06:46 GMT -5
Haha, Christian thinks the name of the match is as ridiculous as we do...
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 12, 2007 20:52:04 GMT -5
Frankensteiner. Awesome.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 9, 2007 12:24:28 GMT -5
If this faction turns out to be ring crew jobbers and ROH students, this is my biggest letdown in wrestling for the past who knows how many years.
Gabe's really bright. He won't blow this angle.
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