Dolph Zalgo
Don Corleone
He who waits behind the walls
҉҉ ̵̡̢̢̛̛̛̖̗̘̙̜̝̞&
Posts: 1,939
|
Post by Dolph Zalgo on Aug 7, 2007 18:53:03 GMT -5
Ric Flair is/was a decent worker. But the whole "16 time champ" crap is rediculous. He had those belts because he kissed ass, cried like a girl, and had his friends booking him to win these belts. Flair may have been a 3 or 4 time champ without political stroke. But with it, the man gets 16. Switch around a few numbers, supplant the word "wife" in place of "friends" & you could Triple H's name in place of Flair. Thank you. I feel exactly the same about HHH. And this is my pick. 10 times (or something) world champ? My ass! He is NOT in one league with Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair or Hulk Hogan. He belongs one step below them among other guys like Jericho, Raven, Jeff Jarrett, Goldberg, Benoit, etc. All guys who deserved one or two World Titles, but certainly not more than 5. I'm not talking about ability (if I would Jericho would be on the very top and Hogan close to the very bottom), but on how much of a top draw you are. And no matter how many World Titles HHH and/or Jarrett will have they will always be top guys, but NEVER REAL ICONS.
|
|
|
Post by Chucklehead,baby!!! on Aug 7, 2007 19:04:37 GMT -5
triple h, all the hype of hogan and none of the charisma
|
|
KEJB
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,302
|
Post by KEJB on Aug 7, 2007 19:13:22 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels. He was a decent mid-card tag team wrestler. The Rockers were nothing special. He got a push because of a "personal" relationship with Vince. He and his fellow overrated buddies (Nash, HHH, Waltman and Hall) represent everything I hate about the business: People getting pushes because of who they're friends with in back. When I see guys on the message boards with names HBK this or that, talking about how Jeff Jarrett never should have been a world champion or a main eventer, I laugh every time. Woah. Did not see this coming. HBK has been putting on awesome matches for two decades now, and he has as much charisma as anyone in the business. I dont see how his relationship should make him over-rated. That goes for Flair, and whoever else too. None of you have been backstage, or know what goes on. All anyone has is internet rumors, and shoots from guys who are bitter. Even so, I dont get how knowing how to work the politics, can make you over-rated, when your actual work in the sport is phenomenal.
|
|
|
Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Aug 7, 2007 19:21:49 GMT -5
Yeah I'm just going to ignore the Flair comments because I don't even know where to begin.
I agree on Triple H. Yes, he was damn good for a time and a worthy champion. But he's not one of the best ever.
Shane Douglas in ECW. So basically, he'd go out and talk trash about someone more talented than him (Flair) or more charismatic (Hogan...and Flair again, for that matter), say "dick" and "f***" a few times, and I'm supposed to think he's awesome. Nope. Doesn't work for me. And before anyone says anything, yes I've seen some of his matches from the time. They were good, but only good, and considering some of the talent he was working with, even that's no surprise.
|
|
KEJB
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,302
|
Post by KEJB on Aug 7, 2007 19:28:25 GMT -5
Yeah I'm just going to ignore the Flair comments because I don't even know where to begin. I agree on Triple H. Yes, he was damn good for a time and a worthy champion. But he's not one of the best ever. Shane Douglas in ECW. So basically, he'd go out and talk trash about someone more talented than him (Flair) or more charismatic (Hogan...and Flair again, for that matter), say "dick" and "smurf" a few times, and I'm supposed to think he's awesome. Nope. Doesn't work for me. And before anyone says anything, yes I've seen some of his matches from the time. They were good, but only good, and considering some of the talent he was working with, even that's no surprise. But, I mean is he really over-rated? He does not get that much love. Even if he does a lil, the dude is a decent hand in the ring, and he is easily one of the most charasmatic, and BEST heels in wrestling during the MNW's era. He could get heat no one else, sans McMahon could get. Yeah, my best ever list is Flair, then everyone else, so what he has said is annoying, but I cannot overlook his impact.
|
|
|
Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 19:32:08 GMT -5
Ric Flair is/was a decent worker. But the whole "16 time champ" crap is rediculous. He had those belts because he kissed ass, cried like a girl, and had his friends booking him to win these belts. Flair may have been a 3 or 4 time champ without political stroke. But with it, the man gets 16. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Save for the short Kerry Von Erich, Ronnie Garvin, and Dusty Rhodes reigns, Flair held the NWA World Title continuously from 1984-early 1989 (the prime of his career). During this time, Jim Crockett Promotions became the official "home" of the NWA title. Who was booking JCP? Dusty Rhodes. Time heals old wounds, but back in the 1980s, Flair and Dusty did NOT get along backstage, as Dusty was always sort of resentful/jealous of Flair, and Flair was semi-resentful that Dusty helped create the Four Horseman for the purpose of bump machines for mega-babyface Dusty, and booked to look like an incredibly weak champion. I'm not sure where you're getting your "friends booking him to win these belts" from. After Dusty left NWA after JCP's sale to Turner, yeah, Flair booked himself a title reign or two, but then was out, because Jim Herd didn't like him. But Herd respected him enough to let him have the strap. Flair also had a mercurial relationship with Bischoff, but was respected enough to get the strap then, too. To what are you referring as Flair's "friends"? Terry Taylor and Kevin Sullivan? Look, Flair was Flair long before Terry Taylor and Kevin Sullivan booked WCW. If you're referring to the old school NWA board of directors as Flair's "friends", keep in mind that most of them would rather give the belts to their sons or their territory's top star, but handed Flair the ball because he could go. For most overrated, how 'bout Bret Hart? I've always liked Bret more than Shawn Michaels for some reason, but Michaels could work circles around Bret. In fact, I'd rather watch a 1994 Razor Ramon match than a Bret match. I saw a Bret/Martel match on MSG Classics last week that was freaking brutal. "Best There is..." is just a marketable catchphrase. Not gospel. However, HHH is the most overrated of all-time. Harley Race is pretty overrated, too. From what I've seen in the 1970s, as workers, Terry Funk and Jack Brisco make Race look like Sid Vicious.
|
|
Midnight Rider
Team Rocket
Don't tell anyone I'm actually Blackjack Mulligan
Posts: 844
|
Post by Midnight Rider on Aug 7, 2007 19:32:52 GMT -5
For overrated,I'd have to say Tiger Jeet Singh: the man was basically hand picked by Inoki to be NJPW's version of The Shiek(who he couldn't use because The Shiek was NWA affiliated and they dealt only with AJPW),wrestled Inoki in the main event about 10000 times during the 70's,then later jumped to AJPW for a ludicrous sum of money and main evented for AJPW for years......and the guy was horrible in the ring,i mean absolutely freaking horrible.
|
|
|
Post by Captain Wonderful on Aug 7, 2007 19:33:21 GMT -5
Ric Flair? Owen Hart? I don't recall any "overrated" workers ever giving us multiple 5-star matches. When John Cena or Hulk Hogan ever put on a 5-star performance, give me call.
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 7, 2007 19:33:38 GMT -5
IMO, I'd say Shawn, Kennedy, Carlito, RVD.
|
|
MetalGearDizzle
Samurai Cop
HEY HEY HEY YA f***IN NAZI! HOW ARE YA!
Posts: 2,170
|
Post by MetalGearDizzle on Aug 7, 2007 19:35:00 GMT -5
# WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Randy Savage (February 11, 1996); # WCW United States title defeating Konnan (July 7, 1996); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Hulk Hogan (March 14, 1999); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Jeff Jarrett (May 15, 2000); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Kevin Nash (May 29, 2000);
3 of those titles were during the Vusso is an idiot era, and lasted way too short to matter. So realistically, he held the belt once when he didn't have a friend in charge of WCW/NWA. I rest my case.
|
|
MetalGearDizzle
Samurai Cop
HEY HEY HEY YA f***IN NAZI! HOW ARE YA!
Posts: 2,170
|
Post by MetalGearDizzle on Aug 7, 2007 19:36:39 GMT -5
Ric Flair? Owen Hart? I don't recall any "overrated" workers ever giving us multiple 5-star matches. When John Cena or Hulk Hogan ever put on a 5-star performance, give me call. A 5 star Owen match? The one at Wrestlemania 10? Yeah that was his only one, and look who he was fighting.
|
|
KEJB
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,302
|
Post by KEJB on Aug 7, 2007 19:36:55 GMT -5
Ric Flair is/was a decent worker. But the whole "16 time champ" crap is rediculous. He had those belts because he kissed ass, cried like a girl, and had his friends booking him to win these belts. Flair may have been a 3 or 4 time champ without political stroke. But with it, the man gets 16. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Save for the short Kerry Von Erich, Ronnie Garvin, and Dusty Rhodes reigns, Flair held the NWA World Title continuously from 1984-early 1989 (the prime of his career). During this time, Jim Crockett Promotions became the official "home" of the NWA title. Who was booking JCP? Dusty Rhodes. Time heals old wounds, but back in the 1980s, Flair and Dusty did NOT get along backstage, as Dusty was always sort of resentful/jealous of Flair, and Flair was semi-resentful that Dusty helped create the Four Horseman for the purpose of bump machines for mega-babyface Dusty, and booked to look like an incredibly weak champion. I'm not sure where you're getting your "friends booking him to win these belts" from. After Dusty left NWA after JCP's sale to Turner, yeah, Flair booked himself a title reign or two, but then was out, because Jim Herd didn't like him. But Herd respected him enough to let him have the strap. Flair also had a mercurial relationship with Bischoff, but was respected enough to get the strap then, too. To what are you referring as Flair's "friends"? Terry Taylor and Kevin Sullivan? Look, Flair was Flair long before Terry Taylor and Kevin Sullivan booked WCW. If you're referring to the old school NWA board of directors as Flair's "friends", keep in mind that most of them would rather give the belts to their sons or their territory's top star, but handed Flair the ball because he could go. For most overrated, how 'bout Bret Hart? I've always liked Bret more than Shawn Michaels for some reason, but Michaels could work circles around Bret. In fact, I'd rather watch a 1994 Razor Ramon match than a Bret match. I saw a Bret/Martel match on MSG Classics last week that was freaking brutal. "Best There is..." is just a marketable catchphrase. Not gospel. However, HHH is the most overrated of all-time. Harley Race is pretty overrated, too. From what I've seen in the 1970s, as workers, Terry Funk and Jack Brisco make Race look like Sid Vicious. Awesome post. Fully agree about Brett. I cannot understand why he is widely considered the greatest of all time on these boards. The Flair v Hart thread was very telling.
|
|
|
Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 19:37:46 GMT -5
Shane Douglas in ECW was a good choice, too. And no, not because I just went on a long-pro Ric Flair rant. Douglas had some real clunkers in the ring. It's almost laughable that Douglas was so bitter, and used to blame everyone in the business for why he wasn't a bigger star, but maybe he should've looked in a mirror, or watched some of his own tapes. Anybody ever see the Douglas-Tully Blanchard broadway for the ECW Title? Ouch.
He was a decent interview, but still doesn't know how to cut a promo if he can't swear.
|
|
|
Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Aug 7, 2007 19:37:54 GMT -5
Ric Flair? Owen Hart? I don't recall any "overrated" workers ever giving us multiple 5-star matches. When John Cena or Hulk Hogan ever put on a 5-star performance, give me call. A 5 star Owen match? The one at Wrestlemania 9? Yeah that was his only one, and look who he was fighting. Psst: I'm guessing you mean Wrestlemania X.
|
|
|
Post by Lionheart on Aug 7, 2007 19:40:28 GMT -5
Austin.
|
|
|
Post by x on Aug 7, 2007 19:54:07 GMT -5
Also SummerSlam 94. One of four WWE matches given 5 Stars by Meltzer.
|
|
|
Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Aug 7, 2007 19:56:38 GMT -5
# WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Randy Savage (February 11, 1996); # WCW United States title defeating Konnan (July 7, 1996); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Hulk Hogan (March 14, 1999); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Jeff Jarrett (May 15, 2000); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Kevin Nash (May 29, 2000); 3 of those titles were during the Vusso is an idiot era, and lasted way too short to matter. So realistically, he held the belt once when he didn't have a friend in charge of WCW/NWA. I rest my case. Did you NOT read my post regarding Flair and Dusty? Just because Flair and Rhodes are friendly now in "WWE DVD Land" does NOT mean they were pals/cronies when Dusty booked. In 1988, Flair went to the Turner office and said "him or me" re: Dusty, when Dusty booked RICK STEINER to beat Flair for the NWA World Title at Starrcade '88. That might sound like Flair being a baby, but it was an incredibly stupid idea by Dusty. Steiner had never won a title in NWA, and was a newly turned lower midcarder. It'd be like Jarrett putting the TNA Title on Eric Young over Kurt Angle, or McMahon putting the WWE Title on Cody Rhodes over Shawn Michaels. Flair got Dusty fired, and would've done it since after Starrcade '83, when Dusty took over JCP's "Executive Producer" role and pushed Steamboat, Valentine, and Piper out of the territory to bring in Dusty's pals like Magnum TA, Tully Blanchard, and Black Bart. Flair and Rhodes were both very close to Jim Crockett, and it's no surprise that in late-1988 after Crockett sold to Turner, Flair and Dusty each tried to eradicate each other from the company. Those in power at TBS kept Ric Flair, and it wasn't even a hard decision. He was the best wrestler in the country. The Flair/Dusty/Rick Steiner thing is also the seed as to why Scotty Steiner eventually hated Flair forever, BTW (and the fact that Flair has had flabby boobies since 1994.) You can rest your case, but I have no idea why. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the "Flair only got the world title once when his friends weren't in charge". This is absolutely not true, no matter how much Flair and Dusty butter each other up 20 years later during HOF ceremonies and on DVD.
|
|
|
Post by thestinger on Aug 7, 2007 19:59:41 GMT -5
Woah. Did not see this coming. HBK has been putting on awesome matches for two decades now, and he has as much charisma as anyone in the business. I dont see how his relationship should make him over-rated. Maybe you should have seen it coming. A month or two ago we had a thread about the best 25 wrestlers of all time. I noticed something interesting about Michaels. He appeared in about 30%-40% of the lists. He was either in the top three, or not on the list at all. That reflects the fact that a large segment of wrestling fans just don't think he was anything special. None of you have been backstage, or know what goes on. All anyone has is internet rumors, and shoots from guys who are bitter. The entire company in the 90s including the man himself have gone on record saying that Shawn and the Clique had Vince wrapped around their fingers. They made demands, the demands were met. If you were their friend, you got pushed, if you were not, your WWF career was ruined like Shane Douglas and Bret Hart.
|
|
Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
|
Post by Hiroshi Hase on Aug 7, 2007 20:01:58 GMT -5
# WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Randy Savage (February 11, 1996); # WCW United States title defeating Konnan (July 7, 1996); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Hulk Hogan (March 14, 1999); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Jeff Jarrett (May 15, 2000); # WCW World Heavyweight title defeating Kevin Nash (May 29, 2000); 3 of those titles were during the Vusso is an idiot era, and lasted way too short to matter. So realistically, he held the belt once when he didn't have a friend in charge of WCW/NWA. I rest my case. Did you NOT read my post regarding Flair and Dusty? Just because Flair and Rhodes are friendly now in "WWE DVD Land" does NOT mean they were pals/cronies when Dusty booked. In 1988, Flair went to the Turner office and said "him or me" re: Dusty, when Dusty booked RICK STEINER to beat Flair for the NWA World Title at Starrcade '88. That might sound like Flair being a baby, but it was an incredibly stupid idea by Dusty. Steiner had never won a title in NWA, and was a newly turned lower midcarder. It'd be like Jarrett putting the TNA Title on Eric Young over Kurt Angle, or McMahon putting the WWE Title on Cody Rhodes over Shawn Michaels. Flair got Dusty fired, and would've done it since after Starrcade '83, when Dusty took over JCP's "Executive Producer" role and pushed Steamboat, Valentine, and Piper out of the territory to bring in Dusty's pals like Magnum TA, Tully Blanchard, and Black Bart. Flair and Rhodes were both very close to Jim Crockett, and it's no surprise that in late-1988 after Crockett sold to Turner, Flair and Dusty each tried to eradicate each other from the company. Those in power at TBS kept Ric Flair, and it wasn't even a hard decision. He was the best wrestler in the country. The Flair/Dusty/Rick Steiner thing is also the seed as to why Scotty Steiner eventually hated Flair forever, BTW (and the fact that Flair has had flabby boobies since 1994.) You can rest your case, but I have no idea why. I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the "Flair only got the world title once when his friends weren't in charge". This is absolutely not true, no matter how much Flair and Dusty butter each other up 20 years later during HOF ceremonies and on DVD. I remember hearing a rumor that at Clash of Champions in January 91 that Flair wanted Scott Steiner to go over him in their match, but Scott turned it down and they went with a time limit draw instead.
|
|
|
Post by leemir on Aug 7, 2007 20:02:59 GMT -5
Ric Flair? Owen Hart? I don't recall any "overrated" workers ever giving us multiple 5-star matches. When John Cena or Hulk Hogan ever put on a 5-star performance, give me call. A 5 star Owen match? The one at Wrestlemania 10? Yeah that was his only one, and look who he was fighting. The way you talk about Owen it's like you think he was only in WWF cause one of his matches with Liger was definitely 5 stars. Please watch this match www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hyxAu8P9yk
|
|