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Post by maxx420 on Dec 16, 2007 13:22:25 GMT -5
We all know that there are some wrestlers who manage to get a big pop despite an obvious lack of talent. Now, before people go citing John Cena as one such wrestler, the man actually grafted & had some decent matches displaying a decent proficiency at wrestling; Hulk Hogan's matches in Japan are a far cry from his formulaic WWF/E matches.
But who, in your opinion, has shown little aptitude for wrestling but has been massively over?
I'll get the ball rolling: Tommy Dreamer. Now, I love Tommy Dreamer, but all he seems to be good at is taking insane beatings & coming back from it. Somehow, though, that translated into a decent level of success.
Axl Rotten is another guy like Dreamer. He's no Shawn Michaels in the ring, but he can still get a decent reaction from the crowd for taking a hell of a whoopin'.
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Chainsaw
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It is what it is
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Post by Chainsaw on Dec 16, 2007 13:24:06 GMT -5
Warrior.
Dreamer can actually wrestle. Warrior had like 3 moves. One of which was freaking out.
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Post by The Booty Disciple on Dec 16, 2007 13:49:07 GMT -5
I think Bill Goldberg qualifies. Since he had the most basic of movesets, but was booked as such an unstoppable monster, he got over like gangbusters in the end (I still severely disliked him, though). Regal tried to take him to school, and got fired over it. If you watch the match in question, it's pretty wierd, because they're grunting and making the right noises, but not really in sync with what would cause those noises.
And while I wouldn't say he's talentless, Mick Foley comes to mind. A technical wrestler he ain't, and a good brawler he ain't. As much as I hate to admit it, I pretty much agree with Ric Flair's sentiment that he's a one off gimmick wrestler that was able to put a lot of personality to it (unlike Flair, I'm not anywhere near calling him a 'garbage wrestler').
That's two off the top of my head...good topic, should bring some great discussion.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Dec 16, 2007 14:02:30 GMT -5
OK, I can't see how Foley wasn't a great brawler. His hardcore matches are great because they're actually structured as wrestling matches involving weapons, rather than the random weapon shots of lesser brawlers.
Warrior is probably the best example, even Goldberg and Hogan were good wrestlers after a fashion.
It's difficult to name anyone in this topic, IMO, simply because the term "talent" tends to be used in such a closed-minded way. To me, the point is, if a guy's over, he's doing something right. There's a reason Cena can't get the same reaction as the Rock by doing the same routine, and there's a reason not just anyone can do Hulk Hogan's low-impact routine and be as over as the Hulkster. I maintain that while Hulk Hogan is in many ways a poor wrestler, he did a lot of things so well that it's difficult to say he had no talent.
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Post by derrtaysouth95 on Dec 16, 2007 14:45:54 GMT -5
I think Bill Goldberg qualifies. Since he had the most basic of movesets, but was booked as such an unstoppable monster, he got over like gangbusters in the end (I still severely disliked him, though). Regal tried to take him to school, and got fired over it. If you watch the match in question, it's pretty wierd, because they're grunting and making the right noises, but not really in sync with what would cause those noises. And while I wouldn't say he's talentless, Mick Foley comes to mind. A technical wrestler he ain't, and a good brawler he ain't. As much as I hate to admit it, I pretty much agree with Ric Flair's sentiment that he's a one off gimmick wrestler that was able to put a lot of personality to it (unlike Flair, I'm not anywhere near calling him a 'garbage wrestler'). That's two off the top of my head...good topic, should bring some great discussion. I disagree with your statement on Bill Goldberg. He held his own in that match with Regal and seemed like he has wrestling skills. Foley: how is he not a good brawler? have you seen his matches in Japan? |
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Dec 16, 2007 14:48:53 GMT -5
I'll say this then I'll have to run away and hide but CM Punk
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Post by maxx420 on Dec 16, 2007 14:52:22 GMT -5
I'll say this then I'll have to run away and hide but CM Punk You wouldn't have to "run away & hide" if you explained your reasoning. Or was this just an attempt to be daring & different? |
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Post by Leaving after 1,600 on Dec 16, 2007 14:59:17 GMT -5
No, just for some reason i am not impressed with Punk, he has nothing that makes him standout. The GTS as well is not a move that deserves to be a finisher, and he don't look right doing it. Every match I've seen of his in the E. he is being carried, except maybe his first few matches where he wasn't being carried by the opponent but by his hype. CM Punk was overrated on the Indies and he is still now in WWE. The only reason he is out of development is because ECW came around, if it wasn't for that he'd be jobbing on Heat or back in ROH.
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Post by The Line on Dec 16, 2007 15:01:51 GMT -5
eh, agree to disagree. I've seen him have great matches with a variety of opponents, both great wrestlers and not so great wrestlers, so he isn't being carried all the time.
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Post by Bishblast on Dec 16, 2007 15:07:03 GMT -5
Not a knock on the guy, at all, but it's my choice just because he's insanely over with most wrestling fans.
Colt Cabana. Don't get me wrong, he's pretty talented in the promo dept, but honestly, mostly in a comedic way. Which is a good quality to have, so that's a plus. As far as in ring skill, I've seen, literally, a handful of matches with him that impress me, but as a standalone wrestler, I think he's rather bland. He really does nothing that jumps out and grabs me. But that's just me.
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Post by Styx Cover Band on Dec 16, 2007 15:25:21 GMT -5
No, just for some reason i am not impressed with Punk, he has nothing that makes him standout. The GTS as well is not a move that deserves to be a finisher, and he don't look right doing it. Every match I've seen of his in the E. he is being carried, except maybe his first few matches where he wasn't being carried by the opponent but by his hype. CM Punk was overrated on the Indies and he is still now in WWE. The only reason he is out of development is because ECW came around, if it wasn't for that he'd be jobbing on Heat or back in ROH. What Punk matches have you seen (non-ECW) that you base his overrated-ness on? His fued with Chris Hero '02-'04 in IWA-MS is phenomenal as was his fued with Raven in ROH. His matches vs. Samoa Joe in ROH are legendary, and the summer of Punk was great |
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Post by Samoa Kenny on Dec 16, 2007 15:31:21 GMT -5
Jim Duggan has to be the king of this.. USA! USA!
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Post by Bishblast on Dec 16, 2007 15:35:28 GMT -5
^True, he is still over, that's for sure. Hearing his pop, then Super Crazy's is sad... very sad.
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Post by skillz on Dec 16, 2007 15:37:08 GMT -5
A question that needs to be addressed: what is talent in a FAKE sport? This is not a pure form of wrestling (amateur), it's simply an exaggerated form of violence. So why does it matter if someone can perform submission moves or "wrestling moves"? The main focus is to tell a story with your actions, get the crowd involved in the matches, and most importantly, draw an audience. THAT is talent in wrestling.
I guess I agree with Kevin Nash's line of thinking. The best wrestlers are the guys who draw the most money. Hogan, Rock, and Austin are the best workers ever. Andre, Piper, Savage, Undertaker, Warrior, Goldberg, etc, were also good to great. I laugh when people try to praise Hogan by saying "watch his Japan stuff". No, watch his AMERICAN stuff. He had the audience in the palm of his hand every night, and he was able to attract a new audience during the most critical stage in mainstream wrestling (the 80's). A person without talent can't do that. People didn't pay to see Hogan chain wrestle either. The Rock is much the same way. He knows how to work a crowd to the point where he doesn't have to do anything to get a response. THAT IS TALENT!
End of rant.
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Post by Bishblast on Dec 16, 2007 15:44:38 GMT -5
Talent in a fake sport is the same thing that talent is in acting, or performance art of any kind.
Simple.
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Post by Adam Pacman Khan (akkilla) on Dec 16, 2007 15:45:44 GMT -5
Ho-Ho-Abyss
Love his willingness to take super bumps not so much his offense in the ring.
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Post by JMA on Dec 16, 2007 15:47:49 GMT -5
Definitely Warrior.
Foley was actually a great brawler, so I don't think he counts.
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Post by skillz on Dec 16, 2007 15:59:42 GMT -5
Talent in a fake sport is the same thing that talent is in acting, or performance art of any kind. Simple. Exactly. But you don't see people on the internet telling Matt Damon to recite Shakespeare to prove he's a great actor. If he's convincing, draws an audience, and can get the intended emotion out of that audience, then he's a great actor. Same applies to wrestling. Maybe I just have a different opinion as far as what talent is in wrestling. If you could make me care about you by doing nothing, then that's great. I still don't care about Mick Foley, and he almost killed himself to get a pop. Different strokes, I guess. |
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Post by ntb on Dec 16, 2007 16:01:45 GMT -5
As much as I love the guy... I'll say The Sandman.
Whenever I used to watch old ECW shows, I could never understand how he managed to stay so over just by caning random people when most of his matches were such laughably bad botch-fests.
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Post by maxx420 on Dec 16, 2007 16:09:20 GMT -5
Another ECW one springs to mind 911. All the guy did was chokeslam people but the ECW Arena went NUTS for him every time!
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